Player Watch #32 - Corey Ellis

[TigerImposter]

Both of you have criticised Ellis for being a timid skinny kid yet in the 2 JLT games he has been among our leading tacklers, which flies in the face of the claims that he is a skinny timid kid. Sure he dropped off a few tackles, I've seen guys like Rance and Martin drop off tackles, granted it doesn't happen often, but the fact is every player misses tackles at times.

The point is that although he is not getting 20-25 touches he is still doing the team things by attempting/laying tackles which as I said was constantly brought up by both of you as a weakness in his game. So far this year it appears that he has addressed that area of his game, now he needs to add more damaging disposals to his game and we'll have another solid player coming through.

He shirked two contests early and was dragged for it and reprogrammed.
The reality is he still lacks physical strength in both his arms and legs so he still needs to address these. What you have issues with is you fail to read posts and go half cocked on some other tangent.
I don’t care on what he’s capable of delivering on IF and hearsay as I’m only interested at where he’s at and what and who he’s up against to be in our best 22.
ATM he’s a long way back in the pack physically and in terms of what he brings to the table.
I reckon Corey played on the Western side of the ground in front of the dug out for most of his game time bc the coaches wanted to have a good look at him as his flaws outweigh his positives and they’re working on them. This is what professional Coaches do to develop players and if they can’t step it up then they end up doing things like applying for punting scholarships or persuing another vocation such as Accounting.
If we want to simplify it atm Corey is the tortoise and I reckon he’s got a year to win the race , but remember he’s a fair bit behind.

 

[TigerImposter]

Ellis could have a season where he averaged 25 disposals & 5 tackles a game and kicked 15 goals for the season while finishing top 10 in the B&F and there would still be those questioning his spot.

And here come the off the tangent childish hypotheticals. This is where you lose credibility bc if your figures were true we wouldn’t be discussing his flaws , but praising his Silky skills.
Also it’s not about quantity , but more on quality.

 

[TigerImposter]

Now I’m confident!
Corey will be a star.

Just like you were with TV and you derailed the thread and had me thread banned.
As long as Mrs DH ,Caracella ,Clarke and Leper with the fitness team are working with him you stand a chance to be right and I hope you are.

 

[Drofder]

Have we worked out if he's any good yet ?

 

[Goldust]

Both of you have criticised Ellis for being a timid skinny kid yet in the 2 JLT games he has been among our leading tacklers, which flies in the face of the claims that he is a skinny timid kid. Sure he dropped off a few tackles, I've seen guys like Rance and Martin drop off tackles, granted it doesn't happen often, but the fact is every player misses tackles at times.

The point is that although he is not getting 20-25 touches he is still doing the team things by attempting/laying tackles which as I said was constantly brought up by both of you as a weakness in his game. So far this year it appears that he has addressed that area of his game, now he needs to add more damaging disposals to his game and we'll have another solid player coming through.

To quote Brian Brushfield: "Statistics bore my socks off, they're a cheap way of getting out of knowing the game."
You can regurgitate tackling stats at will, as you do every week, the naked eye tells you the lad is not making his tackles stick and further not getting rewarded for these tackles. Which gives credence to the argument of many n here that he is too easily brushed aside.
As TigerImposter pertinently pointed out, two of his tackles actually stuck and one should have been rewarded but wasn't ... I credit him. His other tackle attempts dd not. He would be better served working on getting the ball. If he is going to make it as a midfieder ... or elsewhere .... he is required to get a healthy dose of the ball, which he again did not.
I am curious as to whether you watched the game? Or did you trawl straight through the stats? Look beyond pure stats and consider how much general presence the guy had. I think Imposter summed his game up well.

 

[Goldust]

Ellis could have a season where he averaged 25 disposals & 5 tackles a game and kicked 15 goals for the season while finishing top 10 in the B&F and there would still be those questioning his spot.

Which is funny coming from a guy who criticises Anthony Miles getting 35 "ordinary" or "bland" possessions.
If the scenario you suggested above occurred, we'd all be happy for CEllis and clearly NOT having this debate.
Rome wasn't built in a day, let's concentrate on putting together a few high-calibre games before we start talking about averaging 25 possessions, kicking 15 goals and top 10s in best and fairests.
Mind you, the coaching staff would be addressing the very things being brought up on here by the massess.
It's only on Big Footy that some to seem to think players are above scrutiny or comment and sometimes criticism.

 

[Livonski]

Corey played well last night. Particularly in light of receiving a heavy head knock. Showed a bit of steel to shrug that off.
Thought he showed some good poise, sweet skills and a couple of cockups. But there were plenty of them from better credentialed players than Corey.
Early days, practice match but a tick from me.
The reason people get hopeful about Corey is that if he does make it he has skills that are elite.
I’m 60:40 he makes it. His progress, while slow for some, is still progress.
And we’ve already won a flag without him!

 

[blaisee]

Ellis could have a season where he averaged 25 disposals & 5 tackles a game and kicked 15 goals for the season while finishing top 10 in the B&F and there would still be those questioning his spot.

Ellis has gotten 25 disposals in a game probably 5 times in his career ( including vic metro state junior games )

Averaging those numbers in the AFL for Corey would be as likely as Cal Moore winning the Coleman medal

 

[theflea]

Both of you have criticised Ellis for being a timid skinny kid yet in the 2 JLT games he has been among our leading tacklers, which flies in the face of the claims that he is a skinny timid kid. Sure he dropped off a few tackles, I've seen guys like Rance and Martin drop off tackles, granted it doesn't happen often, but the fact is every player misses tackles at times.

The point is that although he is not getting 20-25 touches he is still doing the team things by attempting/laying tackles which as I said was constantly brought up by both of you as a weakness in his game. So far this year it appears that he has addressed that area of his game, now he needs to add more damaging disposals to his game and we'll have another solid player coming through.

He is def a better tackler than Dusty.

 

[KiwiTiger]

He is def a better tackler than Dusty.

From holding the tackle bag and almost suffering concussion from the playing group, I can attest that Dustin is not the hardest tackler. But in discussion with the brains trust it’s irrelevant as he’s a clearance machine.

Haere Ra

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Currently just part of our wonderful depth...go Tigers!

 

[Trucker Tiger]

Have we worked out if he's any good yet ?

He's now more Nick Dal Santo than Danny Meyer. In past seasons he was the opposite. It could still go either way but at least his curve is now heading in the right direction.

 

[_RT_]

To quote Brian Brushfield: "Statistics bore my socks off, they're a cheap way of getting out of knowing the game."
You can regurgitate tackling stats at will, as you do every week, the naked eye tells you the lad is not making his tackles stick and further not getting rewarded for these tackles. Which gives credence to the argument of many n here that he is too easily brushed aside.
As TigerImposter pertinently pointed out, two of his tackles actually stuck and one should have been rewarded but wasn't ... I credit him. His other tackle attempts dd not. He would be better served working on getting the ball. If he is going to make it as a midfieder ... or elsewhere .... he is required to get a healthy dose of the ball, which he again did not.
I am curious as to whether you watched the game? Or did you trawl straight through the stats? Look beyond pure stats and consider how much general presence the guy had. I think Imposter summed his game up well.

You don't get credited with a tackle if you get brushed aside, you only get credited with a tackle 'when a player stops an opposition player with possession of the ball from getting a disposal away in a legal manner or reduces the effectiveness of the disposal forces a stoppage of play. In other words the tacklers action must change the course of play. So as much as both of you like to discredit Ellis' tackle numbers the truth is he is having an impact with them which is what you 2 have been asking for.

And here come the off the tangent childish hypotheticals. This is where you lose credibility bc if your figures were true we wouldn’t be discussing his flaws , but praising his Silky skills.
Also it’s not about quantity , but more on quality.

I'm almost positive you 2 would still find something to be critical about and you mentioning quality over quantity makes that thought a valid one.

Which is funny coming from a guy who criticises Anthony Miles getting 35 "ordinary" or "bland" possessions.
If the scenario you suggested above occurred, we'd all be happy for CEllis and clearly NOT having this debate.
Rome wasn't built in a day, let's concentrate on putting together a few high-calibre games before we start talking about averaging 25 possessions, kicking 15 goals and top 10s in best and fairests.
Mind you, the coaching staff would be addressing the very things being brought up on here by the massess.
It's only on Big Footy that some to seem to think players are above scrutiny or comment and sometimes criticism.

Yes I criticised Miles game as lacking impact and the fact he averaged 30 odd disposals a game for the season and still struggled to break into the senior side suggests it's a valid criticism. As TI said quality of quantity is what counts.

Ellis has gotten 25 disposals in a game probably 5 times in his career ( including vic metro state junior games )

Averaging those numbers in the AFL for Corey would be as likely as Cal Moore winning the Coleman medal

It was said as an example of how some posters would still find reason to criticise a player. True to form one said it's not about quantity but quality. Yet when posters highlight a quality piece of play from Ellis they then pipe up with but he needs to get more of the ball. Can't have it both ways.

 

[tropicaltiger]

A bit less of the same from him for a start.
Like i said he should be where Lambert is now,Even Jack Graham gets more involved and he's just a kid.
He plays timid.

timid is a poor choice of a word...he's a finesser and he is learning to go when its his turn and while hes adjusting looks a bit tentative at times, he's not the barging hulking, bullocking jack graham type.

 

[TigerImposter]

You don't get credited with a tackle if you get brushed aside, you only get credited with a tackle 'when a player stops an opposition player with possession of the ball from getting a disposal away in a legal manner or reduces the effectiveness of the disposal forces a stoppage of play. In other words the tacklers action must change the course of play. So as much as both of you like to discredit Ellis' tackle numbers the truth is he is having an impact with them which is what you 2 have been asking for.

I'm almost positive you 2 would still find something to be critical about and you mentioning quality over quantity makes that thought a valid one.

Yes I criticised Miles game as lacking impact and the fact he averaged 30 odd disposals a game for the season and still struggled to break into the senior side suggests it's a valid criticism. As TI said quality of quantity is what counts.

It was said as an example of how some posters would still find reason to criticise a player. True to form one said it's not about quantity but quality. Yet when posters highlight a quality piece of play from Ellis they then pipe up with but he needs to get more of the ball. Can't have it both ways.

This post tells me you’re the only whinger on here who needs to dream things up then accuse posters of this as being their behaviour. Again this is why you lack credibility. Stick to the facts and comment only on what we’ve seen as I’ve told you I’m not interested in IFS and hearsay , especially from an adult who constantly demonstrates a lack of maturity . Now stop putting words in posters mouths and grow up. You’re the only person on here that’s bitter and a poor reader of posts that constantly demonstrates poor literacy skills. Now go away as I’m done with having to play ring a ring a Rosie with a dreamer and a liar.

 

[prodigy]

This post tells me you’re the only whinger on here who needs to dream things up then accuse posters of this is being their behaviour. Again this is why you lack credibility. Stick to the facts and comment only on what we’ve seen as I’ve told you I’m not interested in IFS and hearsay , especially from an adult who constantly demonstrates a lack of maturity . Now stop putting words in posters mouths and grow up. You’re the only person on here that’s bitter and a poor reader of posts that only demonstrates your poor literacy skills. Now go away as I’m done with having to play ring a ring a Rosie with a dreamer and a liar.

I pride myself on my ability to read and what RT said in the post you quoted was bang on. You’re just deflecting now. He addressed every point you, Goldust and Blaisee made, and made factual counter points.
You then proceeded to comment on his credibility and called him a liar...

Interesting.


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[tropicaltiger]

Now I’m confident!
Corey will be a star.

ha ha ha.... very funny and very true.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

timid is a poor choice of a word...he's a finesser and he is learning to go when its his turn and while hes adjusting looks a bit tentative at times, he's not the barging hulking, bullocking jack graham type.

That is a fair call...
Rewatched the LOL@NORFF JLT game again...CEllis while not a standout in talent certainly was in amongst the play...
Last Q did a clanger handball at the 10 minute mark whilst streaming into the forward 50...12 minute mark beautiful long kick to Cotch from the backline...
One end of the ground to the other...
He's not lost out there...just finding his place in the scheme of things...

 

[TigerImposter]

I pride myself on my ability to read and what RT said in the post you quoted was bang on. You’re just deflecting now. He addressed every point you, Goldust and Blaisee made, and made factual counter points.
You then proceeded to comment on his credibility and called him a liar...

Interesting.


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Please myob as you’ve already failed to read what has been said and what has been made up.
What blaisee GD and myself addressed him on was that he was dreaming up rubbish and to stick to reality, so you didn’t actually read or understand what was being discussed.
Now go back inside your gallery and stick to the topic rather than flaring up childish arguments.

 

[Grrr]

Ellis took a pretty solid hit early, his eye was pretty closed for most of the match, so yeah maybe he pulled out of a couple of contests early after. Sometimes a good hit takes a quarter or so to find your feet in the contest again. He is not an outside mid who is able to sit out and get some easy ball. His job is the hardest position on the ground, in at the coal face. As the game went on he worked his way back in. I thought he showed some good aggression at times, but might just take a while to buy into the structures of our new pressure game, that really only came together in the last 8 weeks of the season. Callum Moore was way off the pace with his chase and aggression, so it is not as easy as some may think. I know he is a rookie but he has been around a while.

Ellis is finding his feet at the top level. He may never make it due to being a bit undersized and a bit one paced, but he certainly has the skill levels required. In a fully fit team I doubt he would be there for Round1, but with Prestia maybe missing, (doubtful but maybe), it seems they are putting some game time into Ellis as he seems the next in line. Hopefully he comes good because he is a player that uses it well, although he obviously he needs to find more of it.
He is a bit like Townsend, Castagna, Broad, Grigg, even Lambert and a few others, most here wrote them off at some stage, including me, but with a bit of confidence and game time look how they are doing.

 

[blaisee]

You don't get credited with a tackle if you get brushed aside, you only get credited with a tackle 'when a player stops an opposition player with possession of the ball from getting a disposal away in a legal manner or reduces the effectiveness of the disposal forces a stoppage of play. In other words the tacklers action must change the course of play. So as much as both of you like to discredit Ellis' tackle numbers the truth is he is having an impact with them which is what you 2 have been asking for.

I'm almost positive you 2 would still find something to be critical about and you mentioning quality over quantity makes that thought a valid one.

Yes I criticised Miles game as lacking impact and the fact he averaged 30 odd disposals a game for the season and still struggled to break into the senior side suggests it's a valid criticism. As TI said quality of quantity is what counts.

It was said as an example of how some posters would still find reason to criticise a player. True to form one said it's not about quantity but quality. Yet when posters highlight a quality piece of play from Ellis they then pipe up with but he needs to get more of the ball. Can't have it both ways.

the fact of the matter is, Ellis does not get enough ball, he never has in his career. So saying that if he did get enough ball he would be criticized anyway would assume that there is some conspiracy against Ellis and that he has been treated unfairly. This is untrue, the fact is he has been gifted games, he has shown glimpses, but overall been looked after big time by the coaches .

 

[prodigy]

Please myob as you’ve already failed to read what has been said and what has been made up.
What blaisee GD and myself addressed him on was that he was dreaming up rubbish and to stick to reality, so you didn’t actually read or understand what was being discussed.
Now go back inside your gallery and stick to the topic rather than flaring up childish arguments.

Well, I have read the entire thread and it seems to me that RT was quoting statistics which are factual. Maybe you should address his rebuttals instead of just going the man.
In terms of minding my own business, if you want a private conversation, don’t post on a public forum.


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[RockJobster0312]

I don’t think calls of CEllis shirking contests or being timid are on the mark. I think there has been clear improvements in CEllis game. Furthermore, with our relatively low disposal style (ranked 15th last season), and the likes of Cotchin, Martin, Grigg, Lambert, Prestia, Caddy et al. All more than capable of getting 20+, High disposal counts are not what CEllis will be about. His pass in the second I think when he was a handball away from the contest and drilled the leading forward is what we need. High impact disposals; quality over quantity.

That said, I still don’t think he has improved enough nor shown enough to warrant any calls of beat 22. He was emergency on GF day, and I think he still sits somewhere in the 22-25 player bracket. Injuries and form fluctuations happen so he should see playing time this year, and would expect to see him improve. Lastly, there clearly has been an emphasis of bringing him up to the contest, and in that regard TI is right IMO. He needs to add a few KGs to his frame. If he can do that, continue to improve and find confidence in himself and his body (which i believe doesn’t come naturally to CEllis), no reason he can’t make an impact this season as the year goes on.

 

[mopsy]

He just seems one of those players who has all the tools but just can't get near it. At this point he needs to be able to average 15+ as a minimum as a midfielder, I don't think he can play forward or back.

I hope he makes it, he will be a very good player if he does, but at this point I doubt it.

thats just it though, he doesn't have all the tools.four things are constantly raised when talking about whats lacking. size&strength. aggression, pace, and lack of ball winning ability.

If we are being serious about picking players on merit then Lloyd should play in front of him.Cant say Miles because he has not played.

 

[prodigy]

the fact of the matter is, Ellis does not get enough ball, he never has in his career. So saying that if he did get enough ball he would be criticized anyway would assume that there is some conspiracy against Ellis and that he has been treated unfairly. This is untrue, the fact is he has been gifted games, he has shown glimpses, but overall been looked after big time by the coaches .

TigerImposter Please take note of a post addressing the points made and also providing counter points.
This is how a discussion works.


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