Player Watch #32 - Corey Ellis

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Personally i was disappointed with what Corey Ellis did last night , I was expecting more involvement and more damaging disposal from him
We were playing against a pretty young midfield and he had a chance to have a bigger influence in the game

If we had lost last night there would have been Corey's blood on this forum and the positive comments would have not made its way into this thread, Not sure what to do with him at the moment but we cant carry him in games that are 50/50 - We need more output from him

qucikly running out of patience , Needs to be harder at the ball and the man and more involvement

Saw a passage of play which pretty much sums up CEllis is at.
1st qtr i think it was.Ball was kicked into Carls Hf fwd line,Grimes kicks the ball off the ground towards the wing.When he kicked it Ellis was about 15mtrs ahead of Grimes.The ball goes past Ellis.I was expecting Ellis to pick up his pace and get the ball but no instead Grimes go past him with the Carlton player on his tale.
Now if Ellis had the desire to get the ball we would have had the ball in our hands with Grimes doing the team thing and holding off the carlton player.
Instead it was a ball up.
Had a chance to take the game on but took the easy way out.

 

[THE_GUN]

Wanting to ask Goldust & TigerImposter in particular, just what sort of stats they are expecting from Ellis in the AFL side?

Are you 2 expecting him to be getting 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles a week?

If not then why are you so upset that he is getting i.e 12-18 disposals and 3-6 tackles and playing his role in the side which is HF/wing/HB with stints on ball.

If you are expecting him to get 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles each week then I'd suggest that your expectations are unrealistic and need to be wound in a bit.

Why would 20 disposals & 5 tackles be unrealistic for a 21 year old inside mid in his 4th year ?
a 18/19 year old 73kg 180cm kid playing for Carlton averaged 15 disposals and 5 tackles last year in his 2nd year Brisbane's Alex Witherdan doesnt appear to struggle to get these types of numbers.

Its not just the amount of ball he gets its just that he really doesnt 'Hurt' with his touches,tackles and is extremely introverted and nobody even knows he is on the ground.

Kid really needs some angry pills

 

[TigerImposter]

Wanting to ask Goldust & TigerImposter in particular, just what sort of stats they are expecting from Ellis in the AFL side?

Are you 2 expecting him to be getting 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles a week?

If not then why are you so upset that he is getting i.e 12-18 disposals and 3-6 tackles and playing his role in the side which is HF/wing/HB with stints on ball.

If you are expecting him to get 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles each week then I'd suggest that your expectations are unrealistic and need to be wound in a bit.

As I told you weeks ago It’s not about quantity, but quality. Also as you said earlier he’s developing his physicality and game which should be done in the Seconds and not at the expense of our Seniors. He still plays timid with uncertainty which means he’s out of his depth.

 

[Goldust]

Wanting to ask Goldust & TigerImposter in particular, just what sort of stats they are expecting from Ellis in the AFL side?

Are you 2 expecting him to be getting 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles a week?

If not then why are you so upset that he is getting i.e 12-18 disposals and 3-6 tackles and playing his role in the side which is HF/wing/HB with stints on ball.

If you are expecting him to get 20+ disposals and 5+ tackles each week then I'd suggest that your expectations are unrealistic and need to be wound in a bit.

He should be in the 16-20 possessions per week range at this point of his stagnant career.
Not that I ..... unlike your good self (and plenty of others) ..... are obsessed with stats and see therm as the be all and end all.
If CEllis was to get 12 possessions and really make them count I would be impressed. But they are what they are ... stats. There was nothing that I saw on Thursday night that said to me now that was a class piece of play, or that was something that really benefited our team or set him apart.
The majority of his stats did not benefit play and were hurried and haphazard. Again, looking at the package, ask the question why he was hurried, because he doesn't have the pace required to be a silky smooth midfielder.
From what I can tell CEllis earned a reputation as an 'elite' ball user in the TAC Cup, a competition where players don't have to navigate zone defences, floods, or even earn a tag. It's free flowing football. In AFL, where you come under much scrutiny he has shown to be wanting, no matter how much you keep talking up ... and sadly for you .... a lot of other posters on here agree with me.
Here's a stat for you (as you love them so much).
Tackles per game:
Dustin Martin 3.25
Trent Cotchin 3.91
Corey Ellis 2.43
Brandon Ellis 2.38
Anthony Miles 4.19
So while you continually spruik CEllis as this tackling master, the bloke you continually talk down has more tackles per AFL game than most. But that doesn't fit your narrative and neither should it as stats are just a way for blokes to try and boost their argument. I'll trust my naked eye and knowledge of the game and decipher who's performing and who's not and my naked eye tells me Corey needs to get more involved and needs to have more influence. As a first round draft pick in his fourth year he's been a flop.
There's not a first rounder - certainly not picked before him, and maybe only two after him (Durdin and Boekhurst) that I would rather not have on my list.

 

[Goldust]

Why would 20 disposals & 5 tackles be unrealistic for a 21 year old inside mid in his 4th year ?
a 18/19 year old 73kg 180cm kid playing for Carlton averaged 15 disposals and 5 tackles last year in his 2nd year Brisbane's Alex Witherdan doesnt appear to struggle to get these types of numbers.

Its not just the amount of ball he gets its just that he really doesnt 'Hurt' with his touches,tackles and is extremely introverted and nobody even knows he is on the ground.

Kid really needs some angry pills

In his fourth season, Brandon Ellis - chosen around the same draft pick as Corey Ellis - averaged 14 kicks and 11 handballs, 6.3 marks and 3.4 tackles.
Why can't we expect similar from CEllis (other than the fact some like to afford him every excuse in the book)?
And spot on ... I can accept 12 possessions a game, just make the opposition pay!

 

[Calcium Man]

Saw a passage of play which pretty much sums up CEllis is at.
1st qtr i think it was.Ball was kicked into Carls Hf fwd line,Grimes kicks the ball off the ground towards the wing.When he kicked it Ellis was about 15mtrs ahead of Grimes.The ball goes past Ellis.I was expecting Ellis to pick up his pace and get the ball but no instead Grimes go past him with the Carlton player on his tale.
Now if Ellis had the desire to get the ball we would have had the ball in our hands with Grimes doing the team thing and holding off the carlton player.
Instead it was a ball up.
Had a chance to take the game on but took the easy way out.

So the actual play was a ball up in the middle after Butler Banana goal in the second, CEllis lays a tackle in the middle gets up and then sprints after Cripps who picked up the loose ball and kicks kicks into forward 50, rance spoils grimes chases the ball to HF and kicks it off the ground to centre of the wing. Corey has worked back to HBF and is running across the line of ball on a 45 degree angle and has to turn to give chase whereas grimes was running full pelt the direction he kicked the ball, he then ran off past Corey who sagged back onto Silvaghni Grimes's man, Carlton picked up the loose ball and booted it back into forward 50.

He would have needed 3-4m long arms to pick up the loose ball

 

[Goldust]

As I told you weeks ago It’s not about quantity, but quality. Also as you said earlier he’s developing his physicality and game which should be done in the Seconds and not at the expense of our Seniors. He still plays timid with uncertainty which means he’s out of his depth.

Some on here will never get this, mate. It's about quality and hurting other sides. What CEllis does get of it doesn't hurt the opposition, no matter how it gets dressed up!

 

[Goldust]

Saw a passage of play which pretty much sums up CEllis is at.
1st qtr i think it was.Ball was kicked into Carls Hf fwd line,Grimes kicks the ball off the ground towards the wing.When he kicked it Ellis was about 15mtrs ahead of Grimes.The ball goes past Ellis.I was expecting Ellis to pick up his pace and get the ball but no instead Grimes go past him with the Carlton player on his tale.
Now if Ellis had the desire to get the ball we would have had the ball in our hands with Grimes doing the team thing and holding off the carlton player.
Instead it was a ball up.
Had a chance to take the game on but took the easy way out.

I rest my case!
Just a lack of intensity!

 

[_RT_]

Why would 20 disposals & 5 tackles be unrealistic for a 21 year old inside mid in his 4th year ?
a 18/19 year old 73kg 180cm kid playing for Carlton averaged 15 disposals and 5 tackles last year in his 2nd year Brisbane's Alex Witherdan doesnt appear to struggle to get these types of numbers.

Its not just the amount of ball he gets its just that he really doesnt 'Hurt' with his touches,tackles and is extremely introverted and nobody even knows he is on the ground.

Kid really needs some angry pills

Because he isn't playing as an inside midfielder. He plays flanker/wing with brief stints in the middle. As mentioned yesterday, we're a premiership winning side we don't need a first round pick like Ellis to be in the midfield helping to carry the load. We need him to play his role while our stars run around doing what they do.

SPS plays in a side that has been/is a bottom 4 contender and plays in a more prominent role as Carlton don't really have much else to turn to as they rebuild. Carltons midfield last year was Murphy Gibbs an injured Cripps Ed Curnow and kids like SPS Cunningham Graham. This year it's Cripps Murphy Ed Curnow Kennedy & Dow. Compare that to trying to break into a midfield of Martin Cotchin Grigg Lambert Prestia Graham & Edwards.

As for Witherden, he plays a rebounding defender role for Brisbane. A team that was clearly the worse defending side in the comp last year so naturally he is going to rack up disposals. Again it's a different role in a different side.

Ellis is in a similar position to Nakia Cockatoo, where they are trying to break into a side that is successful, and have had injury issues stall their progress along the way. Right now he has a small window to try and cement a spot in the line up as 4 premiership players are unavailable. IMO he has done enough to hold his spot as I would be loathe to bring in Prestia this week with no game time under his belt.

 

[Michaels]

I have no problem with expecting quality over quantity but I feel like there is an expectation that if he has 12 touches that all of them need to be 40m bullets to a leading forward to be classed as dangerous.

But realistically those dangerous possessions don't happen all that often for the entire game, let alone expecting 1 bloke to have 12 of them


I fully agree quality over quantity but I feel like the expectation level of the quality for each disposal is a bit too high.

 

[Goldust]

Saw a passage of play which pretty much sums up CEllis is at.
1st qtr i think it was.Ball was kicked into Carls Hf fwd line,Grimes kicks the ball off the ground towards the wing.When he kicked it Ellis was about 15mtrs ahead of Grimes.The ball goes past Ellis.I was expecting Ellis to pick up his pace and get the ball but no instead Grimes go past him with the Carlton player on his tale.
Now if Ellis had the desire to get the ball we would have had the ball in our hands with Grimes doing the team thing and holding off the carlton player.
Instead it was a ball up.
Had a chance to take the game on but took the easy way out.

In fairness mate, a lot of people missed this because they had their heads buried looking at the stats sheet

 

[Goldust]

I have no problem with expecting quality over quantity but I feel like there is an expectation that if he has 12 touches that all of them need to be 40m bullets to a leading forward to be classed as dangerous.

But realistically those dangerous possessions don't happen all that often for the entire game, let alone expecting 1 bloke to have 12 of them


I fully agree quality over quantity but I feel like the expectation level of the quality for each disposal is a bit too high.

I'd settle for once or twice a game, but even that isn't happening.

 

[docko911]

Got a very very strong feeling Shai will be first to get the chop if Houli and/or Prestia come in.............. Edwards will go predominately forward, Dusty to play 50/50 as a forward to make Crows shit their pants with Graham on Sloane... and Conca, Macca, Bash, Ellis twins, Short all sharing the half back/wing/on ball mix.

I disagree because we are focussed on maintaining 3 small forwards. I think the only way Shai gets dropped is if Rioli is fit or Higgins/Stengle are playing really well in the VFL and Bolton isn’t delivering.

2 of Conca, C.Ellis and Short will be dropped for Houli and Prestia. While I reckon they will make Broad earn his spot back so could be a small battle there.

That’s of course excluding injuries and other players potentially being dropped... but really who else would be dropped?

 

[Michaels]

I'd settle for once or twice a game, but even that isn't happening.

Nice little bullet pass to castagna in the forward pocket while tucked up on the boundary line that resulted in a goal class as one?

Genuine question by the way

 

[This Is Anfield]

Nice little bullet pass to castagna in the forward pocket while tucked up on the boundary line that resulted in a goal class as one?

No, obviously not.

 

[_RT_]

He should be in the 16-20 possessions per week range at this point of his stagnant career.
Not that I ..... unlike your good self (and plenty of others) ..... are obsessed with stats and see therm as the be all and end all.
If CEllis was to get 12 possessions and really make them count I would be impressed. But they are what they are ... stats. There was nothing that I saw on Thursday night that said to me now that was a class piece of play, or that was something that really benefited our team or set him apart.
The majority of his stats did not benefit play and were hurried and haphazard. Again, looking at the package, ask the question why he was hurried, because he doesn't have the pace required to be a silky smooth midfielder.
From what I can tell CEllis earned a reputation as an 'elite' ball user in the TAC Cup, a competition where players don't have to navigate zone defences, floods, or even earn a tag. It's free flowing football. In AFL, where you come under much scrutiny he has shown to be wanting, no matter how much you keep talking up ... and sadly for you .... a lot of other posters on here agree with me.
Here's a stat for you (as you love them so much).
Tackles per game:
Dustin Martin 3.25
Trent Cotchin 3.91
Corey Ellis 2.43
Brandon Ellis 2.38
Anthony Miles 4.19
So while you continually spruik CEllis as this tackling master, the bloke you continually talk down has more tackles per AFL game than most. But that doesn't fit your narrative and neither should it as stats are just a way for blokes to try and boost their argument. I'll trust my naked eye and knowledge of the game and decipher who's performing and who's not and my naked eye tells me Corey needs to get more involved and needs to have more influence. As a first round draft pick in his fourth year he's been a flop.
There's not a first rounder - certainly not picked before him, and maybe only two after him (Durdin and Boekhurst) that I would rather not have on my list.

Once again Ellis doesn't have to be a prime mover or a star. Right now all he has to do is play his role and on Thursday night, that is what he did. He got his dozen or so disposals, laid tackles, linked up in play and put on defensive pressure. The way you and TI post it's like he needs to be a game breaker or he needs to do something that makes the crowd stand up and applaud. This is what I don't agree with regards the constant talking down of him.

Oh and BTW, I have never claimed he is some tackling master, I have talked about his improvement in that area of his game, from averaging 2-3 tackles a game in the VFL in his first 2 years to averaging 6 tackles a game last year and I have said that he needs to bring that sort of effort to the AFL as well. What I find strange that a kid who is labelled as being timid increases his tackling numbers by double and it is still not considered a step in the right direction, which is why I asked what it is that you guys want from him and by your explanation above it is that the kid should be some sort of star, rather than a role player in a premiership winning line up.

To me that is unrealistic and having that sort of expectation put on him is always going to lead you and TI to talking him down unless he does star.

 

[Calcium Man]

Nice little bullet pass to castagna in the forward pocket while tucked up on the boundary line that resulted in a goal class as one?

Genuine question by the way

Don't forget the 50m kick to dusty at HF on the boundary that led to Jacks goal at top of the square where he ran around

 

[This Is Anfield]

Don't forget the 50m kick to dusty at HF on the boundary that led to Jacks goal at top of the square where he ran around

Didn't happen. The experts told me.

 

[Calcium Man]

Didn't happen. The experts told me.

Can't let facts and analysis get in the way of vibe and feelings. Its why Trump is turning into the most successful president of all time.

 

[This Is Anfield]

Can't let facts and analysis get in the way of vibe and feelings. Its why Trump is turning into the most successful president of all time.

Cher dislikes this post... I mean really, really dislikes it!

 

[Wacko23Jacko]

Nice little bullet pass to castagna in the forward pocket while tucked up on the boundary line that resulted in a goal class as one?

Genuine question by the way

I was gonna point out this one

I think the comparisons to players from other teams at "similar stages in their careers" is unfair too. It takes a lot more than stats to make comparisons relevant in trying to evaluate the worth of a player. For one, playing in Carlton or Brisbane is going to be a completely different experience for the exact same player. All teams move the ball differently, have different balance of quality mids, backs, forwards, etc around the player. With the class that is around Ellis in the team it's going to be hard for him to accumulate large numbers I think. We know he can dominate a game in the VFL as we saw him last year towards the end of the season. He definitely has the skills and capabilities - we have seen that at both AFL and VFL level. He made a couple of fantastic passes and movements in passages of play as mentioned above.

I agree at times he can look timid or less ferocious then some of his contemporaries - but that's a confidence issue (as we've seen him play with more gusto and fire in VFL). He doesn't need to be a bull like Dustin Martin, he doesn't need to be a bonafide Spanish football superstar running the ball from end to end and scoring from outside the penalty box (see Butler), he doesn't need to take high flying pack marks like Jack Riewoldt. I reckon we can afford to have him getting around 15-20 disposals at this stage as we have a pretty stable and confident team who play well together. Give him a run of games to build some confidence, as long as he can contribute for the next 2-3 weeks to at a minimum the same level he did against Carlton and improve on that, give him a couple more.

We saw last year what a difference confidence can make to a player and a team, and I don't think we're a weak team that can't fit a player of his output into the balance.

 

[TigerImposter]

I have no problem with expecting quality over quantity but I feel like there is an expectation that if he has 12 touches that all of them need to be 40m bullets to a leading forward to be classed as dangerous.

But realistically those dangerous possessions don't happen all that often for the entire game, let alone expecting 1 bloke to have 12 of them


I fully agree quality over quantity but I feel like the expectation level of the quality for each disposal is a bit too high.

It’s not too high bc atm it’s completely lopsided to lack of quality as well as a lack of quantity . As I said in the jlt Game he needs to work harder in the gym and develop in the seconds. Even in the twos he still goes through large phases where he disappears. He also needs to work on improving his speed and there are many websites showing this by professionals. A mate of mine took note of these sites and it was incredible what an increase in a couple of yards did to his game. I’m sure the club have the pros onto it, but we ain’t seeing the fruits of it atm.
I also see a lack of quality in his game with his intensity and this comes about again due to his lack of strength. Really he’s undersized for a fourth year player and this is why his game at the top notch level is lacking both quality and quantity.

 

[prodigy]

People talking about that play where Grimes ran past him, what people likely didn’t see were the three efforts he had prior to that taking place.

In terms of impact of his possessions, he had one direct goal assist and another passage where he started in the back 50, hand balled off to a team mate, ran to the wing, got the ball back and kicked a 40 metre pass to Dusty’s advantage who then got it to Jack for another goal.

That’s the type of impact he can have on a game. He needs to work on getting in the same positions more often, that’s for sure.

While I was at the game, I had a Richmond fan behind me, and he was glowing of the way Ellis was going about it on the night. Now I know that doesn’t mean much, but I sit in front of this guy every week and he can be very critical of a lot of our players so he isn’t the ultra positive type of fan.

It’s all about perspective though, and team selection will be interesting again on Wednesday. I think he will get dropped, but I thought he was serviceable and better than some of our premiership stars on the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tropicaltiger]

Grimes only got it 6 times and 2 tackles yet i would think Damo would be pleased enough with his and CEllis's 12/4 game as both we given defensive/negating roles with spoiling, guarding dangerous space and cluttering up little smart sneaks like murphy running forward as priorities. both did their jobs ok.

 

[_RT_]

As I told you weeks ago It’s not about quantity, but quality. Also as you said earlier he’s developing his physicality and game which should be done in the Seconds and not at the expense of our Seniors. He still plays timid with uncertainty which means he’s out of his depth.

If it's about quality over quantity why get upset when I mentioned that Miles' disposals don't hurt despite him getting plenty of the ball. We have 4 premiership players out of the side at present, we need to pick someone to fill those spots and we've gone with 3 unproven types to give them opportunity. If they don't step up they'll find themselves back in the VFL soon enough. If they do maintain their spots when the others come back then that can only be a good thing as it means our depth has improved again