7:30 report issues

[Haggis McHaggis]

To the mods, first let me say I can understand your censuring this issue on this particular board as it's likely to draw out some unsavoury views as celtic_turncoat expounded on the one already closed. It also certainly seems likely it would draw no end of trolls coming in to take a cheap shot at the club as a whole. It's probably best debated in the public forum, and I hope it's because of that and not that it's seen as something that needs to be kept quiet here.

I really do think though that the best place to really get some understanding and progress on the whole saga is here though, where it is an issue that is going to draw out serious feeling and those failures in certain lines of thought can be addressed and put in perspective.

Firstly people need to understand that a football club is like anywhere, any organisation in this world. It's going to have it's lesser lights and its dark moments. How the leaders respond to that is what matters. John Elliot is in the past and so be it. I'm sure members that voted him in didn't know or believe that he might put himself, allegedly,in this kind of situation. In no way is that past a reflection on the club as a whole.

Secondly if there were dodgy bastards like the Morans involved it would not have been as if the club recruited them. They had a few mates and those are individual questions. If Elliot was involved in that small clique then it shows a disgusting little cancer that managed to get into the place, but once again, it's not a reflection on the club. Anyone that believes tens of thousands of card carrying members could have a) known about it or b) would have vicariously condoned it because of their love of their footy club, is patently ridiculous. It's like saying that every labor voter in QLD is guilty by association for voting in a govt that contained a corrupt bastard like Gordon Nuttall.

All that matters now is how Carlton respond to it in the present day. The club really doesn't have a lot of responsibility given the time frame, but the smart thing to do would be to see this as something to be risen above, and show the world the Carlton football club as a whole vehemently detests that kind of thing and wouldn't tolerate it today if they found out something like that was going on. No matter the cost to a few past people if they are found to be in question, the Carlton football club stands to be seen as honest and willing to put itself on the line to show serious integrity in doing what it can to root out as much information as possible and putting it into the public domain. It serves to set an example to young men that courage is honesty and breeds strength of character and make for an a+ culture of producing great people going forward. It would gain the club a great deal of respect for taking initiative and clearing up the kind of murky shit morons throw around when things like this happen.

When fans start asking questions like "Why bring it up now" and "Why not help the police" they just show they're allowing love for their club to get in the way of objectively looking at what is a horrible issue.

The real concern there is the lack of understanding of the nature of sexual violation itself. It is about control. At no point in any of this has this woman had much control of her own circumstances. What happened to her was a violation of her sense of self and removed any sense of control she had of herself. Whatsmore, when this happens it takes away a persons confidence to defend themselves as they feel acutely powerless.

It was then compounded by the fact that when she did try to take control it was clearly shown to her that she had none, even in the one circumstance, in going to the police, where she felt she would be able to get fairly treated. It brings back all of the lack of autonomy issues and further erodes any belief that she actually mattered as an individual and that what happened to her was wrong.

Speaking to the media, face and voice masked, still takes courage on her part and is some measure of control of her own dignity which she would have spent 10 years trying to rebuild in some small way. Not helping the police is her way of sticking her finger up and saying "**** you". She is in control and has the self determination to make that decision. She has no confidence in them and that's completely understandable and I'm sure she feels she won't be made feel like nothing again.

Whether you lock this thread is up to you guys. I would really like to hope this provides a bit of objectivity and a basis for it to be discussed more constructively amongst Carlton people. And to trolls, just piss off. People don't gain anything from having it turned into a petty squabble. It's serious and needs to be addressed as such.

All that said, good luck in the finals people (unless you're playing us )

 

[celtic_pride]

No one cares what you think Haggis ...

The OP is a troll you nimrod ..

To be honest, I don't give a shit what happened 10 years ago, if the police stuffed up the investigation, that's their fault, not the Carlton football club's ...

They are right and wrong ways to go about 'getting justice' if you are a victim of rape/crime, bitching/whining about it in the media (whilst pocketing a fair bit of coin in the process) is not the right way about it ...

 

[blue gunslinger]

Ummm the horse has bolted on this one champ. The only reason to raise this now is to troll
If there is anything to address the Police and courts or the AFL will do so
Mods I suggest somebody who hides behind a moral crusade for no reason should be dealt with harshly. I would be content with a yellow but only if it has a permanent ban from our board attached. Not telling you your job but then again the OP was telling me how I should think without evern knowing my perspective.
He presents a completley 1 sided argument and thus should be shown only one response.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

It's anything but a troll and it's a shame you first two can't read it in the light it was intended. You want to call it a moral crusade without a reason? Fine, I was r*ped as a 6yo boy and can understand this womans thinking and thus think the issue of serious import. Trying to have me banned because it calls your line of thinking into question is really quite ordinary.

Am I a target because I've admitted something disgusting happened to me as a kid? Should I feel ashamed to speak about it? Absolutely not. But it is a feeling that goes with the ground that some can never come to grips with. I dare say if either of you two had experienced anything of the like you'd think a lot differently.

I went to great lengths to explain that the current day Carlton footy club isn't responsible, they simply have a lot to gain by taking the high ground and making it something they need to address.

You are right in that if the girl has mental issues and isn't speaking the whole truth etc that it comes back to her. But who is better situated than those people that still have ways of finding out there to dig the truth up and present the simple facts as they see them. Unlike you guy they wouldn't be throwing mud because they don't like it, but presenting what by all relevant information is their best understanding of the truth.

The fact that evidence + its backups were lost suggests some kind of complicity between whoever asked for that information to go missing and those in the police force that did the deed. Once again it would serve the club well to do a bit of digging and see if they couldn't find some stuff out and present it to the police. If they find nothing so be it but then at least they can say that categorically and show, once again, that they've taken the initiative, and the matter seriously, and done what they could to see what happened.

One should never be scared of the truth. As I said, it takes strength of character to look for it even where it may hurt to acknowledge. Both of those responses sadden me.

 

[blue gunslinger]

I suggest you also seek the aid of legal professionals and I am sorry your life has been scarred however your position on this board is trolling.
Firstly we must now trust you are telling the truth on your life and step carefully so we do not offend you. We have no power over your life. We have no power over what happened. We feel bad about what happened to you and what MAY have happpened to the girls in question. However the best we can do is learn from the mistakes of the past so they are not repeated. If you want justice allow the Police to do their job. Otherwise what exactly do you want from CFC?

 

[Aphrodite]

Mods please lock this thread ..............

 

[blue gunslinger]

I do not want to accuse the OP of maybe telling false things but 1000 posts in 7 years suggests perhaps an alias. I would hope NOBODY would stoop to such a low thing as to lie about being r*ped as a 6 yo.
Because of this I would not want to see any of our fine posters carded for not being civil. Thus I suggest we all avoid the OP's personal experience but agree lock would be even more appropriate with this information in the equation

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

I suggest you also seek the aid of legal professionals and I am sorry your life has been scarred however your position on this board is trolling.

It really isn't a troll. All I'm trying to do is be objective, come from the centre and see if people can't look at their own positions from different angles. It's in no way designed to fish people out and anger them. I'm trying to promote genuine discussion. As for my personal circumstances, it went before court when I was a kid and unfortunately because his own kids couldn't testify against him nothing happened. It did bust up the perpetrators family though and sadly I'm sure still screws with their lives a damned site worse than it ever has mine.

Firstly we must now trust you are telling the truth on your life and step carefully so we do not offend you.

Yeah I understand that and it's what makes it such a hard issue to discuss. To victims that have gone through it, having their experience questioned makes them feel low and like it didn't really matter. I'm old enough to have given it enough consideration to understand both sides. From the point of view of not having gone through it the notion is that obscene that believing it is extremely hard to get ones head around and something you'd really not like to believe of someone. It's something that, if cast wrongly at a person, can screw their whole life up as much as rape itself and tar them with a brush that is every bit as emotionally damaging as being a victim of the crime itself. Our legal system is based on the assumption of innocence and that is as it should be. But proper investigation and consideration of matters should never be shirked, for both sides concerned.

We have no power over your life. We have no power over what happened.

Exactly right. And neither do I if I sit in a corner and say nothing about a life lesson I learned that noone should have to. All most people in my position want is for those that haven't experienced what they have to listen to what they have to say that they may understand.

We feel bad about what happened to you and what MAY have happpened to the girls in question. However the best we can do is learn from the mistakes of the past so they are not repeated. If you want justice allow the Police to do their job. Otherwise what exactly do you want from CFC?

Spot on on the bolded statement. And that's what my posting this thread was designed to try'n bring about, at least in the Carlton BF community. Sympathy & feeling bad really don't matter, there's nothing that can be done to change the past thus as you said, best to learn & move forward. You're right in that the responsibility is with the police and relevant associated authorities to look into the matter. The only thing I'd suggest at the CFC is a bit of proactive digging to find out what they can. If that's nothing due to the time, so be it. If they find out substantive stuff about the girl that really does show she's speaking shit then that's every bit as valid. If they can find anything about possibilities of a coverup that may have happened then they should. And any which way they should present that information to the investigators.

But given the PR damage of last nights show, also doing that and making a public statement that the club had looked where it could and either found nothing or something either way and passed that information on would show strength of leadership and proactivity from the club in saying this is Carlton 2009 and we have stood up and decided to look at something that some people think reflects poorly on the club. It shuts the detractors up and shows a new generation of people there that the heads of the club believe in the clubs honesty and integrity and will put themselves out of their way to show. It's not something they're obligated to or I require of them. I just think it'd be wise and brave of them to do so.

 

[Blue Bawls]

What can possibly be gained by continuing to discuss this issue? The main protagonist and the culture he engendered is long gone. Enough, please.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

I do not want to accuse the OP of maybe telling false things but 1000 posts in 7 years suggests perhaps an alias. I would hope NOBODY would stoop to such a low thing as to lie about being r*ped as a 6 yo.
Because of this I would not want to see any of our fine posters carded for not being civil. Thus I suggest we all avoid the OP's personal experience but agree lock would be even more appropriate with this information in the equation

LoL, 1000 posts in 7 years is more indicative of the fact I've spent a lot of time moving around the country and many years without a net connection. I can assure you I have never had another guise on this site.

I really hope it's not locked, my intention in telling my own story was simply to knock down the fact that you thought my moral position was based on nothing real. It's something I chose to speak about because I understand it and, should that womans claims be real, how hurtful the stuff being said here could be to her. I don't know her from a bar of soap, she could be full of shit. If so, she is she deserves to be found out as much for false accusation as much as someone deserves to if they did that to her. But to run a person down the way some people here were on the basis of nothing was horrible. I find it shocking loyalty to and love for a footy club can allow people to lose themselves like that. I'm sure none of you are bad people but it's easy to ignore the seriousness of a matter when it's distant and seems sensationalised and threatens something you dearly love. But one should never put the blinkers on.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

What can possibly be gained by continuing to discuss this issue? The main protagonist and the culture he engendered is long gone. Enough, please.

Hopefully some of the more extreme stuff people will say ringing back in their ears in a different light.

 

[blue gunslinger]

It is sensationalism media and I am perplexed that the ABC has been dragged down instead of Today Tonight and other pathetic shows. Yes the ABC has had a series of these stories after the troubles in Rugby but really its motives must be questioned

 

[blue gunslinger]

LoL, 1000 posts in 7 years is more indicative of the fact I've spent a lot of time moving around the country and many years without a net connection. I can assure you I have never had another guise on this site.

I really hope it's not locked, my intention in telling my own story was simply to knock down the fact that you thought my moral position was based on nothing real. It's something I chose to speak about because I understand it and, should that womans claims be real, how hurtful the stuff being said here could be to her. I don't know her from a bar of soap, she could be full of shit. If so, she is she deserves to be found out as much for false accusation as much as someone deserves to if they did that to her. But to run a person down the way some people here were on the basis of nothing was horrible. I find it shocking loyalty to and love for a footy club can allow people to lose themselves like that. I'm sure none of you are bad people but it's easy to ignore the seriousness of a matter when it's distant and seems sensationalised and threatens something you dearly love. But one should never put the blinkers on.

By making it personal you make it a mine field for us and now it becomes a no brainer to have the thread locked. Debating the issue may have been OK but now it is impossible as there can only be a white and black with no grey.
Don't be offended

 

[Juddys_navy_blues]

Mods please lock this thread.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

By making it personal you make it a mine field for us and now it becomes a no brainer to have the thread locked. Debating the issue may have been OK but now it is impossible as there can only be a white and black with no grey.
Don't be offended

Not at all offended. But I don't agree on the lack of grey area. I'm a big enough man to be questioned when I say something. It's not a given that you're going to trust or understand everything I have to say in a forum where a lot of nonsense generally prevails. More to the point, failing to discuss it with me would be a lack of using the opportunity to ask the questions you do have of someone with a different perspective on the matter. You don't have to step on eggshells because I suffered something shitty as a kid. That's my problem to deal with. We've all gotta get along in this world and the only way we all understand each other is to talk about stuff hence my feeling motivated to start a thread on an opposition board, something I don't think I've ever done before.

 

[mediumsizered]

There is a thread on the Main Board in relation to this subject. Best you confine your thoughts to there. We have already locked one thread about this subject because of the potential for the wrong thing to be said/implied, so we are not going to allow another thread on the same topic.