A friend just offered to bankroll me...

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Hey guys, I didn't know there was a poker area on Bigfooty this is fantastic.
The other week my friend called me and told me I should play poker professionally and offered to bankroll me in my first year, he get's 50% of my winnings, some of his friends have done this for others in the past and it's been successful.
I haven't really played poker but have played other card games at a national level for about 7 years, he's exceptionally confident that I will do well.

Is there anyone else who has been in a similar circumstance?
How well did it work for you?
Do you think it's worth a tilt at?

I'd have to move to NSW for a few months to learn from them.
 
Being backed is pretty common pro players so from that aspect it's pretty standard but given you've never really played the game much I certainly wouldn't be moving away to do it. If it's a road you wanted to go down at some point I'd reccomend just staying where you are for now and reading up on the game through forums and articles and subscribing to a training site. Is the deal for online or live? I mean, you can be where you are now doing those things to learn while still having your friend and his network of friends in contact with you and talking strat and doing coaching sessions with you over skype or whatever.

Even with a backround in other card games you'll take a bit of time (especially in the current poker climate where the games are tougher all across the board) to adjust putting in the hours and dealing with the swings that come with while you try to get to a stage where you're profitable. I doubt I'd take a backing deal if I was just starting out since you're likely to lose for a while to start off (not really sure what limits they would want you to start at) but you wouldn't want to be racking up make up (the money you have to make back on the stake before you show a profit and can earn 50% of anything) and have that number keep going up as you start to learn more and more about the game.

Also, I don't think its worth it to get backed at the really low limits (assuming that's where you'd start) since you can deposit $200 or so and build it up playing low level cash games or small stakes sit and go's and like i mentioned above you can learn to beat them on your own with the abundance of resources available on the net these days without having to give up 50% (That's assuming you'd be playing online)
 
Yeah, he's coaching me on Skype, bought me a Kindle with all of Dan Harrington's books and a bunch of others he has me reading, said not to read ones other than the ones he sent me as they're out dated. I have spent the last few weeks doing nothing but reading and playing free games online to get a grasp of the game. I will be playing online to start with but I have a love for playing against people in person with card games. I will not have any trouble moving away while I get some experience as I am not leaving a job (due to being a student, I'd just defer till second semester). I have realized that the 9-5 life isn't for me and that being able to pick my hours (apart from on Monday's I have been told) will give me a great sense of freedom.

How long did it take you guys until you were profiting to a point where you could confidently quit work?
What format of poker do you play primarily?
What was the hardest thing for you when learning poker?
 

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bipolarbeaR said:
1.How long did it take you guys until you were profiting to a point where you could confidently quit work?

2.What format of poker do you play primarily?

3.What was the hardest thing for you when learning poker?
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1. It took me about 2 years of grinding and studying the game like crazy until I was good enough to earn decent money ( 100k + a year ).

100k a year is probably the minimum you want to be earning if you're playing poker full-time, otherwise it's not worth it. Poker will consume your life, it will be the first thing you think about when you wake up, and the last thing you think about before you go to sleep. Sometimes the swings can be absolutely brutal, and they honestly do break a lot of people and drive them to quit the game.

You will have to be willing to work your arse off, and study your own game non-stop. It just doesn't finish after a 16 hour, 8 table grinding session, you will then need to analyze your play from that session, and study data to plug any potential leaks and improve your game. If you look in the online HH thread on this forum on the second last page, you will see a graph of mine over 116k hands that's around 30 buy ins below expected winnings. It's now at 40+ buy ins below ev. That kind of thing is completely normal and you will experience worse than that at some points in your poker career. You have to be mentally tough to handle the swings this game will provide.

There's a big difference between being a recreational player and splashing around at 50nl, to playing for a living and competing against players who are also trying to earn a living at 600nl. Games are much tougher the last few years ( particuarly the last year ), and once you develop any kind of edge over another player, you have to exploit that ruthlessly.

2. The most common forms are No Limit Hold Em and Pot Limit Omaha. Both are fine, but unless you want to have a nervous breakdown by 30, I recommend you play a lot more Hold Em than Omaha. Trust me ;)

Online play is so much tougher than live play. In fact, they are pretty much completely different games. I have a friend who grinded out 200k hands of 10nl online, and said that game was at least 2x tougher than the 500nl game at the casino he plays reguarly.

Both have their benefits, and you won't know which one you are more suited to until you play a large sample of both. Live games, you only need a basic knowledge and you can walk into the casino and beat the game for a decent amount. Online, your edge will be small in comparision. However, in live poker, you might see 50k hands a year, whilst online you can see a million hands a year. Also, you can earn tens of thousands of $$ in the Stars VIP program if you put in massive volume. So even if your edge is small online and you only earn 50k a year at the tables, if you put in massive volume, you can earn another 50k or more a year in bonuses!

3. The hardest thing to learn whilst learning poker for me wasn't the maths or psychology, it was how to deal with the swings. Everyone tilts, but keeping tilt to a bare minimum is very important. If you are running bad and it's affecting your game, then walk away until your in the right frame of mind. Remember, the games will always be there! There is no use playing, unless you are playing close to your best. Poker is very, very, very long term. Don't be to influenced by short term results.

You seem like a pretty bright guy mate, and I am sure with the right application you will make it. The Two Plus Two forum is your friend. Spend day and night reading and posting in Two Plus Two when you are first starting out. It is the best friend you will have whilst learning the game.

Good luck mate, and welcome to the poker world :)
 
I find it a touch strange that you've been given Dan Harringtons books to read but not others because theyre outdated. Dan Harringtons can be a touch outdated as well, however I guess they can show you some basic fundementals

Its important to realise this isnt a game you will learn in a year, and despite thinking you know it all at some random point, you actually dont. I wouldnt jump into a backing situation without playing on your own for a bit, then at least you'll have an idea of what to expect and will be able to provide some input ino the deal/situation.

Go to twoplustwo and read all the strat forums and post a lot. There isnt a question that hasnt been asked there so althought you might get trolled a bit, dont worry, if you spend 6 months there you'll have found enough information.

You sound sharp so you should get an idea of the game quickly and what to expect
 
A depends on whether you view poker as a bit of a lark and fun or you really think of making a 10+ year gig out of it. I would definately play for at least 6 months, in fact probably 12, before making any kind of decision to continue to play cards for anything more then just a small supplement to your regular income.

In my case, I currently play live poker as a way to pay the bills through university, and fully intend to stop playing for a living when I graduate which should be next year. I started playing poker for fun around 2007 and started keeping records in October 2009, and basically quit my job around July 2010, and have played ever since in a live setting.

Thankfully, because I am not supporting a GF or children at the moment (women are the rake ;)) my costs of living are very low compared to many others in a similar situation. As such, I can afford to put in less hours then someone with those expenditures (or hookers and blow). I only put in 1200 hours this year (around 25 hours a week) because of university and other commitments.

Which comes back to playing for a living. If you are doing it because "its better then a real job" then I have news. Its not, and it is far closer to running your own highly volatile business then just some way to print the dollars. This is because

- You need to put in a high amount of hours at ridiculous times (I had to quit my Friday night indoor soccer league because I couldnt give up those prime hours) and lose a lot of your social life particularly if most of your friends are the 9-5 types. Thankfully most of my social circle are bartenders and croupiers so I am a bit lucky my most social night are Mondays.

- Variance is huge, and downswings really suck. At least when you have a bad day at a normal job, you still realise you earn your $30 an hour or whatever you are making. Playing poker, particularly live where the number of hands is much lower (admittedly with a much bigger edge) you can have a crap day at work, and be stuck $2k relatively easily (has happened to me multiple times in a 10/20 limit game and 2/5nl.

- You will lose almost all value of money, and as such your planned expenditures will go up slightly, so rather then spending $600 a week it might be $800.

- Your poker friends can quickly become enemies.

- You will at one level or another hate almost everyone in the card room. Other players, some dealers and doorstaff.

- Relationships with loved ones can easily become strained.

Overall, I wouldnt recommend it, but if you do want to improve your game set at least half your "poker" time to studying before you really keep at it, and from when you start playing for a living around 10-20% of your time to study. Studying can be asking others about certain hands, reading 2+2, watching videos, listening to podcasts (Bart Hansons is solid but has sadly stopped being free content) or reading books, but whichever it is, maintaining your learning is also crucial.

-------------------------

About the stake, I would definately have in writing the terms and conditions of the stake, as well as exit clauses for both parties.

In general though, staking rarely works. Its a paradox in the first place to most people because obviously winning players shouldnt need money ldo (I understand the reasons) but in general it usually ends it tears and can ruin friendships. I personally would never stake someone at low limits under those conditions (the variance wouldnt be worth the extra few dollars I would get) but if he is a good friends, and you believe he is acting in good faith, then good ahead...

-------------------

Overall, good luck, but as someone fairly new to the game even if you are very intelligent, it will take at least 6 months to play at a level and winrate high enough to sustain your lifestyle.
 
Yeah thats something I overlooked, have it all in writing

It doesnt need to be official or stand up in court or anything, but having an agreed document/set of terms is so important so that you can refer back to when (when, not if) a situation of grey comes up

Things that often come up are....

I won an event that included a package to another tournament, does my backer have a % in that tournament? If so how much?

I was on a holiday and decided to play a little out of my own pocket, I won and now my backer wants half, do I owe him half?

Poker isnt what I expected and I want out, backer says I still need to put in X amount of hours or pay X amount of makeup

If its online, cover stuff like rakeback. For instance if you buy into the Sunday Million (a large tournament held every sunday/monday) with FPPs (points awarded for playing that can be used to purchase things), does your backer have half of you there? Is your backer entiltled to have of your rakeback?

Does he get half of random jackpots if your playing in a casino with those (high hand, bad beat etc)

Also cover stuff down the track. If you are being backed but decide to quit the stake and owe makeup, generally speaking if you ever play poker again, you are in owing of makeup to your backer. Make sure get out clauses etc are all covered.
 
I would learn PLO if you're going to play online, SSNL is hard to beat for a dcent amount without table-selecting like crazy and playing a huge volume.

What games are you transitioning from just out of interest?

I also think you should get a cardrunners/dc account and read 2p2 until you have soaked up a basic understanding and then put up say $500 and play 10plo for probably 20k hands (not that that is any kind of decent sample but u should get a feel for whether you enjoy the game and how you're playing) before you decide to enter into a staking agreeement.
 
I would play NL a heap before playing PLO, just because it is far easier to explain certain big bet game concepts in NL compared to PLO.... such as stack sizes and bet sizing as well as general poker skills such as applying ranges and playing position effectively...
 
The sad fact is he's probably 5 years too late to the NL party. It also may be an advantage to learn PLO without being constrained by NL concepts and mindsets.

I would also say it'll be tough to start from absolutely nothing now (even with an aptitude for games) and be able to make a decent living playing solely NLHE cash games online.
 
I would agree that playing NL cash isnt going to happen, but in terms of learning absolute poker basics then it will be far easier to see them in action in a NL game then a PLO game.

Unless the aim of the training is to get used to variance, I think NL strictly dominates PLO.
 
checkraiseulite said:
The sad fact is he's probably 5 years too late to the NL party. It also may be an advantage to learn PLO without being constrained by NL concepts and mindsets.

I would also say it'll be tough to start from absolutely nothing now (even with an aptitude for games) and be able to make a decent living playing solely NLHE cash games online.
Click to expand...

ashley12 said:
I would agree that playing NL cash isnt going to happen, but in terms of learning absolute poker basics then it will be far easier to see them in action in a NL game then a PLO game.

Unless the aim of the training is to get used to variance, I think NL strictly dominates PLO.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this ^^.

The NLHE cash games online are tough, but they aren't so tough they aren't beatable. There are plenty of guys who make good money off them, and even if op is starting off, there is no reason why he can't make money playing NLHE cash games online. Most regs are breakeven or slight winners because they are just nits. Nits can always be exploited, and most nits I have played against are usually pretty ordinary and have very little post flop skills.

And even if they are a little tough now, they are no cert to stay that way down the track. Online poker is changing.
 

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HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I have to disagree with this ^^.

The NLHE cash games online are tough, but they aren't so tough they aren't beatable. There are plenty of guys who make good money off them, and even if op is starting off, there is no reason why he can't make money playing NLHE cash games online. Most regs are breakeven or slight winners because they are just nits. Nits can always be exploited, and most nits I have played against are usually pretty ordinary and have very little post flop skills.

And even if they are a little tough now, they are no cert to stay that way down the track. Online poker is changing.
Click to expand...

OP will have 50% equity in whatever after rakeback profit he earns. If we assume that in the next 6 months he'll probably be playing NL cash (for a living) at 10-25NL for (generously) 50hrs pw. How much is he earning pw post split?

Bear in mind OP is living in Australia and paying Australian prices for rent, food, drinking etc.

I guess it also depends on the value and terms of the stake but with typical attitudes towards levels OP isn't going to be destroying anything close to MSNL in the foreseeable future unless he is really, really good. There are a hell of a lot of really talented players struggling beating 6max 200NL at the moment.

If games are changing how long can OP sustain living on <$300pw in the interim? Beating the games and making a decent living are two very different things. If OP is intelligent and rational I have no doubt he could play profitably at SSNL within say 6months. It's playing professionally whilst only getting 50% of profits (which may take a while to eventuate) that makes me suspect of the viability of this plan.

Disclaimer: am somewhat wasted.
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
I have to disagree with this ^^.

The NLHE cash games online are tough, but they aren't so tough they aren't beatable. There are plenty of guys who make good money off them, and even if op is starting off, there is no reason why he can't make money playing NLHE cash games online. Most regs are breakeven or slight winners because they are just nits. Nits can always be exploited, and most nits I have played against are usually pretty ordinary and have very little post flop skills.

And even if they are a little tough now, they are no cert to stay that way down the track. Online poker is changing.
Click to expand...

Playing NL to learn the skills is certainly fine. Playing it to meet the 100k that you mentioned earlier in this thread is not happening, and that is before the split in revenue from the staking deal.

With only 50% of your own profits, its going to be very hard to give up a day job to chase that dream, which leads to the chicken and egg quandry that Tommy Angelo mentions in that you cant really see if you can make it as a pro without quitting your job, and you cant quit your job unless you can make it as a pro... A chicken and egg quandry to be sure.
 
LOL, that Tri Nguyen thread is just buckets of fail... but unfortunately cold reality when a lot of players realise they cant beat certain games, and turn to running sites and taking 10million in bonuses (Full Tilt team members) faking their way as a coach, or being known for a persona rather then being good at the pokerz (Phil Hellmuth)*.

No money in poker, everyone scamming everyone else...

*PH does deserve credit for the latest WSOP though.
 
I am the 2nd or 3rd biggest staker in the game at the current time and the idea of locking someone (even a new player) into a 12 month contract is mouth watering. There is no need at all for the starting contract to go for that length of time.

A standard deal for someone in your shoes would last 3-6 months. A 6 month contract would allow him to give the information needed in the game and spend the time with you well still getting the reload in the last 3 months of the deal $ wise.

If the relationship works well often the players will re-sign and stay with the staker but you should not lock yourself into such a long term contract.

Feel free to send me a pm on here with any questions as I don't visit big footy often during the off season.
 
Yeah the whole $100k system for 50NL when noone has ever had a year of +$100k at 50NL is just a complete joke.

Coaches have their place but I'm sure you'd want a strat coach to actually be a proven winner in current games before you start paying >$100ph for them to alter your game.

The how to be a poker coach course (and earn more from coaching then playing) without no playing experience necessary is just taking the piss imo.
 
ashley12 said:
In general though, staking rarely works. Its a paradox in the first place to most people because obviously winning players shouldnt need money ldo (I understand the reasons) but in general it usually ends it tears and can ruin friendships. I personally would never stake someone at low limits under those conditions (the variance wouldnt be worth the extra few dollars I would get) but if he is a good friends, and you believe he is acting in good faith, then good ahead...
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Wait, what?

I must admit I do not handle any cash players and only look for SNG and MTT grinders but in that game at least staking works very well. To move up the limits you require not only the skill but the bankroll to overcome the variance.

Some very good players are very bad money mangers and prefer to just receive there % of the winnings and not have to worry about the swings in the game. In terms of groups like mine that have a huge coaching program attached to it you will find that even after the value you lose by giving up 50% of your winnings you are are winning a lot more due to the increase in abi and roi.

Playing on your own money is always the best option for most people but playing staked with a good professional staking fund (which id say only 3 are worth playing for and funny enough 2 of them are ran by Australians) is great for a players development and move into the game.
 
I understand the general idea of staking, including the money managment aspects and helping overcome variance as well as moving up levels faster.

I meant staking as the complete average joe would look at it... For example, I asked a few of my mates (casual poker players who understand I play for a living) if they would like to take a % of my action for a relatively large poker tournament for me at the time (A live $1k). They looked at me like I had two heads because after all, since I was a winning player, why do I want to give away a chance of the big prize I was going to win, since I was certain to final table a 200 person event...
 
Yeah but that is the reason why you don't get involved in staking with people who have no understanding of typical variance and return on investments, hell even a lot of people that are involved in the 2p2 staking markets have no real understand of what a proper downswing is or what you should expect to make long term.

If you have a bankroll that only supports a $10 abi and have a 30%* roi and play 1,000 games in a month you would have an expected monthy income of $3,000 pre rakeback etc

Now say your talent in the game means your abi should be a lot higher but you dont have the bankroll to support it and you get staked on a 50/50 profit share with your abi being $35 and your roi being at 25%* (obviously at higher stakes you should expect your ROI to be lower as the fish to reg ratio is a lot different and this is something you should take into place when considering what size bankroll you will need and what your long term income would be) with the 1000 games in a month you would now expect to make $8750 which you would get $4375 to take home which you can cash out and not have to worry about keeping extra on for downswings.

With added extra's such as coaching from people that play at the highest levels etc that will see your overall roi increase as well staking has a lot of good aspects to it but only if it is done with a group that has a proven track record of not only having the bankroll required to fund the players but also do things like move players up in stakes quickly and provide coaching to allow the player to advance there game long term.

*These roi's are used to provide a rough idea on things and are not the expected roi's for that abi as things such as game selection and field sizes need to be taking into account to get a true expected roi
 
HyperAgressiveDonk said:
You seem like a pretty bright guy mate, and I am sure with the right application you will make it. The Two Plus Two forum is your friend. Spend day and night reading and posting in Two Plus Two when you are first starting out. It is the best friend you will have whilst learning the game.

Good luck mate, and welcome to the poker world :)
Click to expand...

I have nearly 40k post on 2p2 and next to non are on poker, Id stay away from reading the current strat threads and look at the top of each forum which should have a sticky that inside it has the best post the site have seen in that area of the game. Most of the great threads are from 2006-2008 when people use to be way more open to giving away decent advice.

Most advice giving these days are either trolls or people giving sub optimal advice on purpose
 
Cliffs

[x] It's a bad idea to to become a poker player in 2012
[x] It's a bad idea to get staked and seldom works
[x] No limit hold em games online above 100nl are simply not beatable unless you're a super genius
[x] It's impossible to earn 100k ( inc bonuses ) a year playing no limit hold em cash games online
[x] 2+2 is rife with people waiting to give bad advice

Turned off playing poker full-time yet :p

Don't worry op, I disagree with all of these ( bar the last one which I am agree with in part ). Everyone is going to have opinions on what the best course of action is, I guess the only way to find out is to try for yourself.
 
Sorry guys, I am back.
Finishing up the last 2 months of my working life, got HEAPS to get done in that time before I piss off to NSW for Soundwave and Poker training ;)

Thanks for the awesome tips, it's been some fantastic reading and has given me realistic expectations. It's good to hear different sides of the coin, my mate and HAD have very similar views, optimistic but realistic.

This is something I now have every intention to pursue fulltime for the next 2 years, if the game isn't highly profitable by that point, I intend on going back to uni and part time work. Going to give it a real tilt and dedicate my life to it. I have enough money saved up to support myself for 2 years, on a relatively comfortably lifestyle.

I transitioned from a game called Magic the Gathering which is a strategic card game which you may or may not have heard of (started in primary school lol), which I stopped playing a few years back. All of the NSW poker pros that I know came from the same game, one of which is top 5 in the ANZPT player of the year leaderboard for last year. (I assume this is reasonable)

My friends deal isn't for 12 months, it's until he believes that I will be able to cope on my own, he's a great friend who I know doesn't care even slightly about profiting from it, just the sort of bloke who is incredibly happy doing what he's doing and wants to bring other mates along for the ride.
He will let me off the bankroll leash when he is confident in the fact that I know the game well enough to profit and am able to manage my own bankroll well.

I don't care too much about profiting largely for the first two years, I just want to be in the best position I can possibly be in by the end of it, knowing my strengths, weaknesses, and what parts of the game I enjoy.
At this point I like the idea of live tournament poker as a long term interest and potential career (Magic The Gathering is a live, face to face game), I also wish to be multi-tabling SnG's for a "wage" in approximately 1.5 years as there seems to be a small amount of Psychology in it and that's the part of ANY game I enjoy and am good at, possibly online headsup also. All this my change.

Keep up the advice, at this point you're all MUCH more experienced than me so any advice is good advice unless it contradicts something I have heard from a pro ;)
 
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