A Thread only for the rational thinking Pies fan

[DaVe86]

If you want to pot players, coaches and other supporters, this is not the thread for you. I want a discussion of the pro's and cons of where we are at right now.

I have not given up hope of playing finals, but to be honest I have no real concern either way. I'd be happy with us to try and get some confidence out of the last 5 rounds and keep pumping games into Broomhead, Martin, Kennedy etc. If we make finals that's great, but I think we have bigger issues to worry about than scraping into the top 8.


Firstly, I am dissapointed with the result because we worked hard to get back into the game, but butchered the ball constantly and then just fell to pieces in the last 5-10 minutes of the game. Our first quarter was also the worst we have played all year.

This contested football problem is really starting to hurt us bad. Buckley made the right move to committ and extra number to the contest, and also to play a spare behind the ball. However, it just meant Adelaide had 2 spare men in defence, and Brodie Smith destroyed us. He was BOG. However, if we didn't play our spare around the ball, we were getting smacked by Adelaide in the stoppages so Bucks had no choice.


Here are a few other points I took out of the game:

1. Clearly our structure was better with Reid. He didn't have a great game, but our first few goals came from crumbs from his contests. If he had kicked that easy goal it would've been an ok game. Jessie White and Travis Cloke clearly benefitted.

2. On White, he played OK but I was still very dissapointed. He kicked 2 goals early, but then butchered 2 gettable opportunities and his marking is just not up to it. He dropped a few marks that a forward just should take. If Grundy can improve his forward work, I think he'll eventually claim his spot.

3. Despite Reid's presence, I think the team is just screaming out for him in defence. Without Toovey, we had no premiership defenders and it was evident. They look disorganised and there is just no procedure moving the ball out of defence. I'd get Reid and Toovey down there.

4. The question then becomes who do we play forward. The answer is Karnezis. He may not be the aerial presence that Reid is, but Pat knows how to kick a goal and is a fine lead up player. He has had a few games now at VFL level, and also trained throughout the bye so he must be close. I love Reid forward, but I think we need to resolve the Defence first.

5. Midfield is a huge concern right now. My issue is that too may commit to the contest, and still don't win the footy. Far too often an Adelaide player won it in close and then fed it outside where 3 or 4 Adelaide players were waiting. All their Magpies opponents were getting sucked into the contest and leaving their opponents outside and ready to break. Our midfield coach has work to do.

6. It was easy to think that we had no game plan yesterday. But I think a lot of this has to do with our inability to win contested footy. Buckley is clearly trying to get some run and carry into the team, but if we can't win the hard stuff, then the outsiders have no hope. Our best game plan involves winning the stoppages, playing one loose behind the ball and having good spread. We have no spread at the moment simply because all hands are needed in close to try and win the footy.

7. Really impressed with Lumumba yesterday. He needed to lift and he did.

8. Macaffer is just not working for us right now. OK, he limited Sloane to 19 disposals and a goal, but he did nothing offensively for us. I'd be happy enough seeing Sloan have 26 disposals and 2 goals, if his opponent can do damage the other way. We just have no outside spread right now, and Macaffer offers nothing on the inside either. I think Macaffer needs to be a horses for courses selection. He clearly suits some teams but not others.

9. Instead, I'd be getting Marley Williams into the middle. He is so down on confidence right now and is making mistakes we haven't seen from him before. I'd have him run with a dangerous player, but also have a licence to really hit in and try and cause damage. The guy is a bull and one of our best one v one players. He is only an average kick and we have too many of those in the backline right now. I reckon Marley would help with our contested footy problems. My only question is whether he is fit enough to play midfield yet. Maybe next year this may happen.

10. Despite the horrible game, I reckon this is the side I want to see going forward in the next month. I thought Adams and Broomhead showed something. Adams had his best game of the year, whilst Broomhead only showed glimpses but he went in hard and he makes something happen when he is around the ball. Witts just needs to keep getting exposed to the best rucks, whilst Langdon held his own yesterday. Kyle Martin was quiet and didn't take his opportunity, but I reckon he needs another chance. Please don't drop him after 1 game!

11. I get the fact that Buckley probably doesn't want to have Kennedy in the side when we already have Blair and Elliott. However, I think he is wasted as a sub. The word is that Kennedy lacks fitness. If that is the case, then he needs to be running out full games at VFL level, not 20 minutes at AFL. He is a good sub because he comes on and has impact, but I reckon he is better than we are allowing him.

12. I thought Blair was good. He had a real crack. But I still question his role in the side. I reckon he either has to go into the midfield or be dropped. He kicked a late goal, but otherwise missed a really crucial shot before 3 quarter time and didn't really have any other impact around goals. I would give him a run in the middle whilst Ball is out to try and improve our contested footy. Otherwise, he's the person I'd sacrifice for Karnezis to come into the side.

13. As I said, I think all the players I want in the side are there. The only 2 I think need to come in are Toovey and Karnezis. I think JT and Dwyer need multiple good performances at VFL level and need to earn their spot as Martin and Broomhead did. They were given time at AFL level and failed, so Martin and Broomhead deserve the same chance.



For all the analysis, and my concerns about the midfield, ultimately we were able to arm-wrestle the game back our way. I don't know how we did it, but we found a way.

My only other concern with the side is our run out of defence. There just isn't any. Too many bad kicks down there and no experience. It's one reason I think Reid needs to go back. However, we can't expect much from Reid this year as he is clearly scratchy and not 100% match fit. Having Fasolo back there might help, but Bucks has made it clear that Fas will need more time. Maybe Broomhead could be tried off a back flank for now.

Ultimately, our effort was there, the execution wasn't. Importantly though, our youth is pushing through as we hoped it would, and we had something like 14 players under 50 games experience.

 

[PieNSauce]

Where's the extreme like button when you want one. Great post Dave. Nice to see some rational discussion about where we are at rather than the headless chook posts I've been reading this morning.

Hard to find too much to disagree with and I'd make the observation that it seems that Bucks agrees with your apparent summation that we need to get games into some of our recruits. It's a comment I've made elsewhere and I reckon that last weeks selection was pretty telling. I am not of the belief that much other than what you've described needs to change as I'm very confident that our list has what it takes to get us contending in the next few years.

 

[jmac70]

Good Thread.

I agree with everything apart from point 3. I reckon Reid is more important to us up forward than he is down back. We should continue to pursue the combo of Frost and Keeffe. Another preseason under the belt and they should be good to go.

Furthermore,

• Witts is looking like a gun
• Karnezis is deserving of at least one run in the seniors this year. Need to see what he has to offer.
• Too many brain fades. I know the frequency of these will lessen as the players get more experience, but it seems to be happening all to often at the moment.
• I reckon we could do a straight swap of Fasolo for Young. According to reports he played a good game in the VFL yesterday, and could provide something for us off half back.

All in all we have a lot to look forward to over the coming years. Excited for what will come.

Keeffe is a worry IMO. He just takes far too long to make a decision and appears to have no confidence in himself.

 

[PieNSauce]

Keeffe is a worry IMO. He just takes far too long to make a decision and appears to have no confidence in himself.

Not 100% sure about that. I reckon his indecision has more to do with players around him. There wasn't anywhere near enough movement from our half backs and midfielders last night when we wre looking for an outlet and that seems more about inexperience to me than anything else. Keefe looked a good decisionmaker early in the season so I reckon the blame might possibly lie elsewhere.

 

[jmac70]

Not 100% sure about that. I reckon his indecision has more to do with players around him. There wasn't anywhere near enough movement from our half backs and midfielders last night when we wre looking for an outlet and that seems more about inexperience to me than anything else. Keefe looked a good decisionmaker early in the season so I reckon the blame might possibly lie elsewhere.

Good point. There is a collective issue with team confidence. We appear to lack any flow and some players seem almost scared to make a mistake. I liked H's game yesterday because he was prepared to move the ball quickly to advantage.

 

[domus]

I was very frustrated by the fact that Bucks allowed Adelaide the extra defender(s). We were losing the game. At timers we had Marley as our extra man and he butchered the pill every time he got his hands on it. How was this a positive for us? Every time we went forward players would look up and see Smith standing in front of Cloke and more often than not we still kicked it to him only to see it rebound at the rate of knots.

If our midfield which consists of Pendlebury, Beams, Swan (when available) Sidey, Caff, and Ball is not capable of simply breaking even with opposition mids then we are truly in strife. I would much rather have seen us man up the plus one in our forward line and make it a dogfight with even numbers.There is nothing more exasperating than watching a loose defender float across and take uncontested marks before launching our opponents into a fast rebound attack.

If we are winning and our extra defender is providing run and drive then I'm happy to let our opponents have there extra man. Sadly this has not been the case for weeks and with Maxy gone it seems less likely to be a feature of our game.

 

[shizzle]

Not 100% sure about that. I reckon his indecision has more to do with players around him. There wasn't anywhere near enough movement from our half backs and midfielders last night when we wre looking for an outlet and that seems more about inexperience to me than anything else. Keefe looked a good decisionmaker early in the season so I reckon the blame might possibly lie elsewhere.

This is bang on, there just doesn't seem that urgency to work for their teammates. Time and time again I see us take a mark and then just stop and look left, right, left, right pause hold up and by then it's play on and they just kick to a contest that generally results in a turnover. You watch how hard the hawks players run just to become that hit up mark and the next in the chain, it's something we don't do.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

I've been pretty harsh on Harry, but thought yesterday he showed more than he has for more than a month.

I want to persist with Reid up front. The defence isn't where our issue is, and forward structure is the bigger issue at the moment. Next year, I think Brown and Frost as the two top KPD, with Keeffe as the third tall will be a better set up. Guys like Broomhead and Scharenberg starting to get games back there will only improve the delivery and flow out of the back half.

I think our biggest issue at the moment is getting continually smashed in the clearances. We've barely won a clearance in the past month and a bit. It forces us to put a spare man back, creating a spare man in our forward line which most of our midfielder then lack the skill to kick around. It creates the issue where our defence is under siege most of the game. Part of the issue might be our young ruckman, but honestly I've been pleased with how Witts is developing there and see that as some positive news. His efforts have been enough that we shouldn't be getting smashed in clearances to the degree we have been.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

I agree with most of what was said in the OP. Reid should ultimately be forward, but maybe in the short term he needs to play back. Our lack of experience in the backline was concerning and it comes from not having that voice of experience down there. Maybe for the rest of the season Reid is needed to help develop the young defenders into a unit. Brown may be able to help with this next season if required, but hopefully players like Keeffe and Toovey can develop as generals down back for next season. Also, Goldsack looked much better in defense than in attack. Maybe he can be groomed into a semi-replacement Maxwell.

If this is the case with Reid, then I agree with Dave and Karnezis should come in. If it is not the case, then Karnezis should come in. He is going to be underdone, but we have the opportunity to get games into him this season without much consequence. Finals are not a realistic chance, and even if we are to compete for them, I think he could add enough to improve our side anyway. This should apply to a Grundy and Witts combination as well. If White needs to be dropped, then so be it, he is a depth player at any decent team anyway. Grundy and Witts are a potentially game destroying partnership for us in years to come, so let's develop it now.

Kennedy, Broomhead, Grundy, Witts, Karnezis, Keeffe, Frost, and maybe Martin as well, should play every game for the rest of the season. If they can ever get through a game, then Shazza and Freeman as well. Put Swanny on ice and get his rehab going now so he can have a better impact next season. Ball could probably use some time off as well if he is to go around next season.

Blair can just be dropped if it means one of the above mentioned kids gets a game. He just doesn't impact a game that much even when he is doing good things. I would also consider Young in this category.

 

[Buena]

One of our biggest issues - in my opinion - is that we have too many similar players. Between 165 - 175 cm, not quick, not slow, not a great kick.
We need variety. Karnezis in, no matter how fit he is or isn't. He offers height and pace, and is a pretty decent kick.
There's nothing I can add that Dave hasn't already said. Well done. We're not cooked yet, although we're coming to the boil.

 

[mike123]

8. Macaffer is just not working for us right now. OK, he limited Sloane to 19 disposals and a goal, but he did nothing offensively for us. I'd be happy enough seeing Sloan have 26 disposals and 2 goals, if his opponent can do damage the other way. We just have no outside spread right now, and Macaffer offers nothing on the inside either. I think Macaffer needs to be a horses for courses selection. He clearly suits some teams but not others.

This

 

[mike123]

I agree with most of what was said in the OP. Reid should ultimately be forward, but maybe in the short term he needs to play back. Our lack of experience in the backline was concerning and it comes from not having that voice of experience down there. Maybe for the rest of the season Reid is needed to help develop the young defenders into a unit. Brown may be able to help with this next season if required, but hopefully players like Keeffe and Toovey can develop as generals down back for next season. Also, Goldsack looked much better in defense than in attack. Maybe he can be groomed into a semi-replacement Maxwell.

Reid should definitely stay up forward. Our other Key forwards Cloke and White played better with him in the side (Although White should have held onto a few more marks). Broomhead even crumbed of Reid a couple of times. Our Key defenders actually played well in Keeffe, Goldsack and Frost.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

Reid should definitely stay up forward. Our other Key forwards Cloke and White played better with him in the side (Although White should have held onto a few more marks). Broomhead even crumbed of Reid a couple of times. Our Key defenders actually played well in Keeffe, Goldsack and Frost.

I agree, and before this week I was not at all concerned about defense. But our defenders were only good when they got their opponent one on one. Our zoning off and support for each other was terrible. Our positioning was all off, if Adelaide had kicked straight, we would have been buried. This also stems from lack of midfield pressure though, the ball was coming in too quick for us to set up a lot of the time. But I still think we were caught making poor decisions down back.

It all reeks of a lack of an experienced back line general. Reid might offer that for the rest of the season in preparation and development for next season when one of the others will need to take up the role. Reid will ultimately play most of his footy for us forward from now on, but I think we need him to help develop Keeffe and Frost a little.

 

[1eye]

13. As I said, I think all the players I want in the side are there. The only 2 I think need to come in are Toovey and Karnezis. I think JT and Dwyer need multiple good performances at VFL level and need to earn their spot as Martin and Broomhead did. They were given time at AFL level and failed, so Martin and Broomhead deserve the same chance.


Fasolo needs to come in if fit, surely?

 

[mike123]

I agree, and before this week I was not at all concerned about defense. But our defenders were only good when they got their opponent one on one. Our zoning off and support for each other was terrible. Our positioning was all off, if Adelaide had kicked straight, we would have been buried. This also stems from lack of midfield pressure though, the ball was coming in too quick for us to set up a lot of the time. But I still think we were caught making poor decisions down back.

It all reeks of a lack of an experienced back line general. Reid might offer that for the rest of the season in preparation and development for next season when one of the others will need to take up the role. Reid will ultimately play most of his footy for us forward from now on, but I think we need him to help develop Keeffe and Frost a little.

I just think even though Reid didn't play all that well structurally there was a notable improvement. I think when Toovey come back he can take a key forward and Goldsack can drift off or try and develop Langdon as the spare man.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

I just think even though Reid didn't play all that well structurally there was a notable improvement. I think when Toovey come back he can take a key forward and Goldsack can drift off or try and develop Langdon as the spare man.

I like that plan and I agree about our forward structure. But I would like to bring in Karnezis, and maybe Fasolo as well, and see if that doesn't improve our forward structure just as much. Both are marking forwards and known goal kickers, plus PK requires a tall defender, so they might be as beneficial as Reid for the moment.

 

[peatease]

I think Reid forward is a good idea, but he needs match fitness. Playing from the goalsquare isn't his strength. Looking at out forward line, there's still too many times multiple guys jump at the ball and there's NOBODY at ground level. Our forward movement is still pretty basic. On the rare occasion are midfield has the ball with out pressure, none of the forwards seem to be able to get any space/separation. That being said, forward line is technically the hardest position to play and as a developing side i expect that to develop the slowest, after the defence and midfield.

 

[mattys123]

I believe Fasolo is partly the answer to our ball use and run out of defense problems.

Watching him yesterday in the VFL (first half only of course) and in the first 5 minutes of the game he burst through the middle and had shots from outside 50 (he missed both in true Collingwood style of course).

Clinton Young isn't the answer, the opposition drag him back insider defensive 50 and he's like a lost puppy back there, in fact some puppies have more physical presence.

Long term though with Langdon (how good has he been?), Scharenberg, Fasolo, Williams and Toovey (he will be better, bad year coming off the ACL) we do have the run off half back.

Let's face it though, the one area we've really struggled this year is depth. When we've had injuries we haven't been able to cover them enough. Brown goes down (again) and Reid hardly plays a game and we look lost up forward and down back.

Ideally in the off season I would like us to pick up 3-5 players, all experienced and capable of playing AFL senior football if need be, but not necessarily in our best 22.

We need more depth, and with the current list it's going to take another year or two before the youngsters either provide that depth or push some of the senior players out and then they become depth.

 

[HeavyPop]

I think it comes down to our inability to limit the the opposition spread from a contest and our skills. I can remember a few times the ball spilt our way from a contest, but it was fumbled and resulted in the Crows taking it away or another ball up.

I don't know if we need Fasolo down back again and just deal with his limited capacity to defend to gain his good ball use.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

At ground level, the problems I saw were:-

- Poor spread from defenders on the kick-in. Exacerbated by Keeffe kicking really poorly - should be Goldsack taking the kick-in.
- Dreadful skills with errant handballs, floaty kicks and poor target selection. Turnovers from clangers seemed to kill us all over the ground
- Inexperience showed in the midfield and at stoppages - that's to be expected but it still hurts to watch
- Witt-man can't jump. Got clobbered at centre, and outmuscled around the ground - albeit by a pretty good ruck man. But the Crows' midfield only had to stand back 5-10m from the contest and the ball was tapped down their throat for a quick clearance

Positives I saw were:-

- Cloke performing the role he's made for. Good to see him clunking and kicking straight and making defenders worried
- Kyle Martin dropping straight in. He's got some time/space issues but I can see 3-4 games he will naturally adjust
- Jack Frost started poorly but picked his game right up - it's positive to see a player lift by themselves when the blowtorch is applied
- Beams standing up to take a leadership role on field

I was so livid last night I swore I wouldn't go back to watch another live match this year. It's hurting too much to see the gaping holes in what used to be such a strong well-rounded team. I agree in the cold light of day that there's promise, but this year has obviously passed us by.

Would be happy to keep this team pretty much as-is (rotating J Thomas, Fasolo, Toovey) for the remaining matches so the team can gel a little more.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Ideally in the off season I would like us to pick up 3-5 players, all experienced and capable of playing AFL senior football if need be, but not necessarily in our best 22.

Isn't that what we do EVERY year? Doesn't seem to be a winning strategy for us right now.

 

[DaVe86]

Thank you so much for the responses. Great chat happening here.

I'd like to just make a few comments in response to others

1. I agree Fasolo needs to be in the team. However Buckley clearly made the comment that he will not be rushed in and needs weeks at VFL level. So I don't think he is going to come in short term.

2. It's just so hard with Reid. I actually thought for the first time yesterday that our forward line was not the issue. Considering how out-numbered they were, and also how poor the supply was, I thought Cloke, Reid and White worked ok and we got a few goals out of Elliott and Beams. I just wonder if our structure will work better with Karnezis in that role and send Reid back. Reid definitely takes a good opponent, but it is still to be seen whether Karnezis can demand the same attention. He will need to come in and kick goals. If he can, then we can send Reid down back.

3. I agree we need to persist with Keeffe and Frost, however they need assistance and Ben Reid is the man. He can play a floating 3rd tall role and just help double team the best forward. His footskills are not what they once were, but still better than others in our side. Goldy can also float. With Toovey back there, at least we have some premiership players in Reid, Toovey and Goldsack to marshall the defence. Send Williams into the middle.

Our backline becomes:

Toovey, Frost, Reid
Goldsack, Keeffe, Seedsman.

At least that has 3 good kickers, two good shut down players and Keeffe who is reliable with the ball if not pressured.

4. I forgot to mention Goldsack. He did a great role on Jenkins. As a whole, our back 6 actually stood up defensively. They just looked totally lost once they actually had the ball in their hands.

 

[DaVe86]

I was very frustrated by the fact that Bucks allowed Adelaide the extra defender(s). We were losing the game. At timers we had Marley as our extra man and he butchered the pill every time he got his hands on it. How was this a positive for us? Every time we went forward players would look up and see Smith standing in front of Cloke and more often than not we still kicked it to him only to see it rebound at the rate of knots.

If our midfield which consists of Pendlebury, Beams, Swan (when available) Sidey, Caff, and Ball is not capable of simply breaking even with opposition mids then we are truly in strife. I would much rather have seen us man up the plus one in our forward line and make it a dogfight with even numbers.There is nothing more exasperating than watching a loose defender float across and take uncontested marks before launching our opponents into a fast rebound attack.

If we are winning and our extra defender is providing run and drive then I'm happy to let our opponents have there extra man. Sadly this has not been the case for weeks and with Maxy gone it seems less likely to be a feature of our game.

I was frustrated too. best on field was clearly brodie Smith with 2 goals off half back and 5 goal involvements.

However, I think Bucks was quite hamstrung with his options.

He needed to play an extra around stoppages. This worked as it at least got the contested numbers back to even and turned the match into an arm wrestle. He also sent an extra man down back which was also essential given the inexperience down there.

That as a side-effect meant that we were 2 short up forward and Adelaide just utilised it so well.

Credit to Cloke and Reid who just kept finding ways to bring the ball to ground. Then guys like Adams and broomhead and Blair were actually making good contests up forward and forcing stoppages.

However, the answer to this problem is clearly to start winning contested footy so we don't need to play extras through the middle. Then we can go man on man up forward

 

[Travis bloke]

If we look at the game against the crowes and we measure the number of premiership players from 2010 that were missing.What I mean we can include players like toovey,ball that were missing yesterday that comes to 16.
That's 16 premiership players that weren't playing so where are we at the moment.
Mini rebuild thats where we are.More a tweeking effect
We have a core group of 100 plus players
We have a very small number that played 50 plus games most of the younger echelon have played between 20 and 50 games.We need this middle tier to reach the 50 game plus mark then we are starting to cook with gas.
Players like Frost,Keefe.fasolo,Josh Thomas.Kennedy Seedsman ,Witts,Grundy,Adams,Langdon,Dwyer etc.
Once we have this level motoring then we will have a nice core group next year of younger players like Darcy Moore,Freeman,Sharenberg, Broomhead, Martin,Oxley plus draft picks who are good and enthusiastic we will be a very good side believe me.But donot lose depth.Depth in most positions is the key we must learn from this simply because of injuries.Look at our past few years.we limped into finals without depth and lost.
We need to look at our sports science dept and a few assistant coaches.Coaches like lappin get rid of him.

Good on Buckley to keep putting games into our middle tier they will all be better off for it next year.This will be a big pay off.
What I am seeing at the moment is our upper echelon are playing well but the middle tier through in experience cough up the ball a lot and create stupid mistakes.they are not sure or confidant enough to execute the game plan properly I mean they have got good kicking skills but they kick to the opposition through non confidence or scrappy play.
They need to believe in each other as a group and the m,ore they play together the better and more confidant they will be.Its really a simple analogy when you strip everything away and look at the bare facts.We will be a much better side next year if we are smart and don't start trading off depth.The average age of our players at the moment is 21-23 still a very young team.
l

 

[jathanas]

Great thread. I'd be bringing Karnezis in just to give him a taste before subjecting him to another pre-season.

Blair out for Kennedy. Got to take the field with the guys that you want around in 2-3 years time.

Adams gave it all; best game for the club.

I think we're not far off. Keep developing the young ones and back them in to do the job. We'll come good, I know it.