AA v KK - thoughts?

[MinerBoy]

Looking to get feedback on this hand. My mate and I disagree about the way AA played the hand - or at least, I suggest it wasn't optimal, even though he got the desired result. An all in call from KK.

Please contribute your thoughts as to how the hand could/should have been played from AA perspective and what his thoughts processes should have been.

Details - 6 max 0.05/0.10 ($10 buy in)

AA (Stack ~ $25) raises from UTG to 0.35
KK (Stack ~ $35) re-raises from LP to 1.30
AA goes all in.
KK calls.

I have my own thoughts but will reserve them so as not to lead the discussion. Essentially, however my friends argument is this:-

he got dealt AA and thought, i want to be all in pre flop with a caller for all my chips. he didnt just go bang all in, he threw out a feeler bet. and was responded to the feeler in such a way that made him believe that he would get called for 25 bucks

 

[mdc]

There're certain situations and opponents where this would be good, but most of the time it's bad.

 

[Borgsta]

I'd re-pop to about $3 but really at those limits KK is going all in 85-90% of the time.

 

[MinerBoy]

I'd re-pop to about $3 but really at those limits KK is going all in 85-90% of the time.

Of course KK is. However, he doesn't know he holds KK. A shove like that is only really extracting value from KK because everything else folds, or should fold.

 

[Drummer_19]

It's terrible, yAA only gets a call from KK and the odd idiot with AK or QQ. He basically has to have you flip your hand over as KK to make that shove. It's obv profitable and unexploitable but its ******ed.

 

[red+black]

If you're a superuser on UB, then I'd shove with AA in that spot every time.

 

[MinerBoy]

If you're a superuser on UB, then I'd shove with AA in that spot every time.

Haha - very good.

 

[paxmaniac]

he got dealt AA and thought, i want to be all in pre flop with a caller for all my chips. he didnt just go bang all in, he threw out a feeler bet. and was responded to the feeler in such a way that made him believe that he would get called for 25 bucks

This is garbage. 0.35 isn't a "feeler", it's a standard raise. When you get raised behind, you can either four bet straight away to around $3-4, and hope your opponent catches a piece of the flop (e.g K high flop vs AK) or else you can flat call the three-bet and check-raise any flop. The latter is a useful way to balance check-raising your draws.

 

[MinerBoy]

This is garbage. 0.35 isn't a "feeler", it's a standard raise. .

That has been pointed out to him. Not that he believes me.

 

[MinerBoy]

My basic argument to him went like this. Anyone disagree?

Being reraised to $1.30 doesn't equal "I will get called for $25". He was lucky he faced KK. Most times he simply forces a fold and he has no chance of winning a big pot. It could have been raised to $1.30 with KK-22 (any pair), AK, AQ, JTs, 98s...a whole variety of hands. At this stage he doesn't know and by shoving all in he has limited his chances of getting some money from the pot to a hope he faces specifically KK because most will fold everything else. If he bets $5 and gets called or reraised then he far more clearly knows that KK is now well within the range, along with perhaps QQ JJ AK. At this stage he can bet all in if reraised or do it after the flop if called. By betting so much he just denies himself the chance of them contributing more money to the pot with some of the weaker hands. He denies himself a chance of them improving weaker hands to something that will still lose with but will pay him off with.

This might explain it better - Look at it this way. With KK, they will still call $5 anyway and will probably still call an all in on the flop on most occasions. All he has done is limit the amount of hands that will pay him off because hands like KK are likely to end up all in anyway. What he has done is forced hands that are weaker than KK to fold. This is denying himself money.

For the record - the flop on this hand came KKJ.

 

[ashley12]

This is garbage. 0.35 isn't a "feeler", it's a standard raise. When you get raised behind, you can either four bet straight away to around $3-4, and hope your opponent catches a piece of the flop (e.g K high flop vs AK) or else you can flat call the three-bet and check-raise any flop. The latter is a useful way to balance check-raising your draws.

This, particularly the last sentence.

One of the best ways of determining a better player is those who look at things from the bigger picture. Looking at the hand in a vacuum its terrible, but as has been mentioned a number of times, its ok against a few, terrible against most.

Its semi interesting because at Burswood playing 2/3 NL I would play a lot of hands similar to this one against some of the mouth breathing, fairly passive regs. Why? Because the number of hands that would three-bet, then fold for something resembling standard stacks are very small, almost non-existant, such me opening for 15, a 3-bet to 45, me shoving for 150 or so, them calling with a hand such as QQ or AK and losing...

However, this only really occurs because most of the mouthbreathers at live low limit NL are very very reluctant to threebet any opens, as such if we set their range to TT+ AKo, AQs+ which is actually reasonably wide, almost all of them would call a shove for 100 more effective... which was one of the reasons I tend to openraise a lot, not having to worry often about the metagame factors of folding to 3!s all the time...

Looking back at this hand, the shove for a shitload more then the pot is terrible, and is another one of those "LOL internetz pokerz is rigged, I never win" cases where people refuse to acknowlegde that they at times play a lot worse then the people around them... and that they are -EV in some games...

In fact, that last statement is the only reason I would say live poker actually works, as well as some creative accounting of results...

 

[paxmaniac]

My basic argument to him went like this. Anyone disagree?

I essentially agree with you. Lots of hands have to fold to the shove that might otherwise catch a top pair and pay off a lot of action.

For the record - the flop on this hand came KKJ.

And ironically the board comes down with one of the few boards that AA can get away from when playing that deep. Another advantage to playing poker postflop.

Its semi interesting because at Burswood playing 2/3 NL I would play a lot of hands similar to this one against some of the mouth breathing, fairly passive regs. Why? Because the number of hands that would three-bet, then fold for something resembling standard stacks are very small, almost non-existant, such me opening for 15, a 3-bet to 45, me shoving for 150 or so, them calling with a hand such as QQ or AK and losing...

2/3 is usually shortstacked, so the 4 bet shove is much more of a standard play.

 

[Borgsta]

Of course KK is. However, he doesn't know he holds KK. A shove like that is only really extracting value from KK because everything else folds, or should fold.

And that is what you should say to your friend as to why it is terrible play.

At those limits KK will call almost all the time, but what other hand would?

If you are banking on your opponent having the 2nd best starting hand to get them to go all in you are in trouble.

 

[Crosby87]

You want to get as much value with Aces as possible, and you're only getting a call there with Kings or if you're up against a very poor player who overvalues A-K or Q-Q in that spot, and even that's not a certainty to happen.

I doubt any solid player would rationalise that an all-in - or even a substantial raise - is the right play in that spot. You want to build a big pot with Aces, not take down a small pot with a giant three-bet pre-flop, where most people would fold.

 

[Borgsta]

Hey Minerboy is the friend in this thread the same as the friend in the others?

If so ask him if he wants to play HU?

 

[andrew81186]

i dont think this is a terrible play at the micro stakes as you want to maximise value, and i mean MAXIMISE. dont get ahead of yourself though with medium strength hands.

 

[Borgsta]

i dont think this is a terrible play at the micro stakes as you want to maximise value, and i mean MAXIMISE. dont get ahead of yourself though with medium strength hands.

Really? If he was against 88 would he have maximised his value?

 

[MinerBoy]

Hey Minerboy is the friend in this thread the same as the friend in the others?

If so ask him if he wants to play HU?

One and the same Borgsta, one and the same.

Funny thing is, he only really plays small buy in turbo SNGs and APL type stuff and does moderately well without any real success. Rarely does he venture into ring games. Yet he has an answer why I am wrong on every concept that I try to explain to him.

I know I am right when I post these queries - but I like to show him what other 'thinking poker players' think on some of the topics we discuss.

Doesn't mean he will ever agree though - even when the tide of opinion swells against him.

On the heads up issue - we have never played HU, but we have played SNGs and cash games amongst groups together and I have prevailed more or less every time.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Really? If he was against 88 would he have maximised his value?

Funny you should mention that. Was down 30/70 when down to final two and he went a bit tight. Caught up with bets on flops. He would have folded if I went all-in here. Delighted when he went all-in on 88.


***** Hand History For Game 8912760883 *****
400/800 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (STT Tournament #50191923) - Sat Feb 13 07:08:12 EST 2010
Table Table Turbo #1456286 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2/10
Seat 1: doldersum32 (10185)
Seat 2: Tupper9999 (9815)
doldersum32 posts ante (25)
Tupper9999 posts ante (25)
Tupper9999 posts small blind (400)
doldersum32 posts big blind (800)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Tupper9999 [ Ah, As ]
Tupper9999 calls (400)
doldersum32 checks
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, 5c, 4d ]
doldersum32 checks
Tupper9999 bets (800)
doldersum32 raises 9360 to 9360
doldersum32 is all-In.
Tupper9999 calls (8190)
Tupper9999 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ]
Creating Main Pot with 19630.0 with Tupper9999
** Summary **
Main Pot: 19630
Board: [ 2s 5c 4d 6h Ac ]
doldersum32 balance 370, bet 10185, collected 370, lost -9815 [ 8d 8h ] [ a pair of eights -- Ac,8d,8h,6h,5c ]
Tupper9999 balance 19630, bet 9815, collected 19630, net +9815 [ Ah As ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ah,As,Ac,6h,5c ]