Academy Watch

[M Malice]

Just seen the score. Brisbane Lions Academy 10.11 (71) def Gold Coast SUNS Academy 5.11 (41). Now I just need to find a replay.

Found it.

Brisbane Lions v Gold Coast Suns - Round 1

Watch Brisbane Lions v Gold Coast Suns at Brighton Homes Arena

cluch.tv

I thought the narrative was the Lions academy is way behind the Suns academy in regards to talent and development of players.

 

[briztoon]

I thought the narrative was the Lions academy is way behind the Suns academy in regards to talent and development of players.

I thought so too.

I have watched the first three quarters. I would say the Lions have been gifted 3 goals right in front. The third was really b.s. and the Suns kid had every right to be upset with the call.

Over all it’s been a really scrappy game, and the Lions have managed to capitalise on the Suns skill errors and turnovers.

I honestly don’t know how to tell class at this level.

Daniel Annabel has looked the most influential player on the ground, winning loose balls, breaking from contests, and getting in to the right positions and his teammates looking for and using him at every opportunity. Overall his skills weren’t anything to write home about, but he showed he’s a decent kick as soon as he gets in to a bit of space, or broken from congestion.

 

[Miller1971]

I thought the narrative was the Lions academy is way behind the Suns academy in regards to talent and development of players.

The Lions had 4 x 2006 (17 year olds) born players in an u16 game. The suns didn't have any. Minor issue, but probably helps.

They have now played 3 or 4 times this year and this is first time Lions have won and they did look the better side for the whole game. Some of the better Suns kids in Murray, Patterson and Addinsall all had poor games, which was uncharacteristic

 

[scoman]

The Lions had 4 x 2006 (17 year olds) born players in an u16 game. The suns didn't have any. Minor issue, but probably helps.

They have now played 3 or 4 times this year and this is first time Lions have won and they did look the better side for the whole game. Some of the better Suns kids in Murray, Patterson and Addinsall all had poor games, which was uncharacteristic

This seems to be a trend for our academy teams. Why so many over agers do you think?

 

[briztoon]

This seems to be a trend for our academy teams. Why so many over agers do you think?

Lack of depth.

 

[Miller1971]

not sure its just that, more a lack of talent ID and development

pretty sure they just call Div 1 club coaches and ask for reccommendations. Usually these people have nfi and often the best kids in the younger age groups could be playing d2, d3 or d4 at a smaller club

 

[Nathan Barley]

Academy staff too busy calling members asking for donations

 

[BRAB]

I don't understand why they don't just be done with it and hire briztoon to do the talent identification for them.

 

[M Malice]

I don't understand why they don't just be done with it and hire briztoon to do the talent identification for them.

It is my understanding that briz is asking for too much coin.... it's either Ambrogio or Briz, we can't have both.

 

[briztoon]

It is my understanding that briz is asking for too much coin.... it's either Ambrogio or Briz, we can't have both.

I would have nfi how to identify junior talent. Plus I won’t be working weekends as of January, so that probably rules me out of any academy or scouting jobs.

 

[briztoon]

Scouting Notes: 2023 AFL U16s - Lions Academy vs. Suns Academy

The Lions and Suns Academies faced off in an Under 16 National Championships Q-Clash on Sunday. We noted the top prospects.

central.rookieme.com

 

[Miller1971]

Pretty good win vs the Swans yesterday as well.

Annable a standout, Ben Lillico pretty handy and Charlie Hewitt looked very good.

The real surprise was #7 Jack Slater, just does everything really well and his work rate stands out compared to the others.

 

[briztoon]

Brisbane Lions v Sydney Swans - Round 2

Watch Brisbane Lions v Sydney Swans at Heritage Bank Stadium

cluch.tv

 

[scoman]

Pretty good win vs the Swans yesterday as well.

Annable a standout, Ben Lillico pretty handy and Charlie Hewitt looked very good.

The real surprise was #7 Jack Slater, just does everything really well and his work rate stands out compared to the others.

Are they all 2025 Draft?

 

[briztoon]

Are they all 2025 Draft?

Yes.

 

[briztoon]

Scouting Notes: 2023 AFL U16s - Lions Academy vs. Swans Academy

The Lions Academy knocked off the Swans Academy yesterday to move to 2-0 in this year's Under 16 National Championships.

central.rookieme.com

#2 Benjamin Lillico
Midfielder | 176cm | 09/09/2007

Tough over the ball and with a good turn of speed, Lillico was a standout in the Lions’ midfield. He notched 23 disposals, seven clearances and six inside 50s in a productive performance, helping the Lions get on top at the source. He had a happy knack of sharking the centre bounce taps and shifting to the outside, proving tidy in his work and sharp with a running goal in term three.

#3 Raphael Geesu
Small Forward | 175cm | 23/07/2007

Geesu was at it again with smothering defensive pressure and some handy highlights in Brisbane’s forward half. He was only credited with two tackles, but his constant rundown efforts were great to watch across four quarters. He also showed power with an early overhead mark and set shot goal, which would be his only major for the match.

#10 Harrison Bridge
Defender | 181cm | 04/09/2007

A clean kicker out of defence, Bridge held a high line and looked to utilise his left-foot skills to feed teammates forward of centre. He claimed 22 disposals and five marks, making composed decisions with ball in hand and showing moments of class. He snuck further up the field as the game wore on, looking to launch towards goal from the top of attacking 50.

#11 Jack Harrison
Forward | 183cm | 20/02/2007

Another clever operator, except in the forward half of the ground, Harrison had a happy knack of working into the right spots. He played a high role and took five marks among 20 disposals, operating at the top of the arc and linking the Lions forward. His smarts also got him a couple of shots at goal, albeit for no score.

#16 Daniel Annable
Midfielder | 183cm | 05/04/2007

Annable constantly finds a way to rack up the possessions, mostly through sheer will, and earned a team-high 27 on Monday. He got stuck in at the coalface with seven tackles and five clearances, often getting first hands on the ball and bustling through tackles to get a disposal away. His touches were not always damaging, but Annable plays an important role for Brisbane on the inside.

#24 Fletcher Callaway
Forward | 188cm | 21/01/2007

Making a bright start via two goals in the opening term, Callaway was certainly efficient inside 50 with five kicks, four marks and 3.1. He converted from set shots for each six-pointer, reeling in nice grabs and playing taller than his 188cm standing would suggest.

 

[GC2015]

There is a kid called grady Turner who is at Nudgee College on a cricket scholarship, he is from Prosperine - unsure if he's part of either academy, but can obviously play.

Old post I know but I found this through a Google search. Grady Turner played for the Suns U16 academy in their 10-goal victory over Tasmania on Monday and was the better of two key defenders in the team (the other key defender being Demons' F/S prospect Kalani White). So presumably Turner's connection to Proserpine in the Mackay region has tied him to our academy even though he attends Nudgee College (cricket scholarship) and plays junior footy for Wilston Grange.

I do wonder why this wasn't the case for Kalyn Ponga when he also moved down from Mackay in 2013 to accept a rugby scholarship at Churchie. Should he not have been tied to the Suns' academy due to his Mackay background? Maybe the academy programs were in their infancy at the time and that prevented zoning from coming into play but I would have thought Ponga should have been in the Suns' academy based on other examples. It's a bit like Cairns native Hamiso Tabuai-Fidow who was in our academy prior to accepting a rugby scholarship with Brisbane Grammar.

I'm guessing this is going to continue to occur with these North Queensland junior athletes because getting a scholarship to attend a Brisbane-based GPS school in sports like cricket and rugby is the dream for a lot of them but if they also happen to have an interest in Aussie rules then they'll be tied to the Gold Coast. I suppose there's always the option to send them to the Gold Coast's only GPS school TSS but that doesn't seem to be a common occurrence (plus I think there's a hard ban on Aussie rules at TSS). It always seems to be the Brisbane GPS schools that attract these North Queenslanders.

 

[dlanod]

I do wonder why this wasn't the case for Kalyn Ponga when he also moved down from Mackay in 2013 to accept a rugby scholarship at Nudgee. Should he not have been tied to the Suns' academy due to his Mackay background?

Depends - if his parents moved too, his home address could then be in the Lions' zone.

 

[GC2015]

Depends - if his parents moved too, his home address could then be in the Lions' zone.

It would appear the Ponga family moved with him to Brisbane when he was 15 years of age which seems to be borderline in terms of cancelling any previous zone affiliations. We saw the cancelling of previous zone affiliations come into play with Will Ashcroft when the AFL denied us zone access to him early last year after leaving our zone as a 14 year old but 15 seems to be unknown. Although if the zone ties were cancelled then it should (theoretically) also mean the Lions wouldn't have had zone access to Ponga either due to not spending enough time living in the zone (five years I believe) and he should have been forced to enter the open draft if he chose to pursue Aussie rules. Having said that, I assume the AFL would have made an exception in this circumstance due to it being a high profile junior athlete from the rugby codes choosing our sport instead of theirs.

Another interesting test case is Charlie Cameron. He definitely boarded at Marist Ashgrove while his family were living in Mornington Island... yet was a member of the Lions academy. How does that work? Mornington Island definitely falls under our zone and even if this was taking place prior to us entering the AFL in 2011, we still had unlimited access to all U18 Queenslanders between 2008-10. So I don't understand how Charlie Cameron was able to take part in the Lions' academy program back then.

Maybe the rules are just more clear now than they were back then?

 

[dlanod]

It would appear the Ponga family moved with him to Brisbane when he was 15 years of age which seems to be borderline in terms of cancelling any previous zone affiliations. We saw the cancelling of previous zone affiliations come into play with Will Ashcroft when the AFL denied us zone access to him early last year after leaving our zone as a 14 year old but 15 seems to be unknown. Although if the zone ties were cancelled then it should (theoretically) also mean the Lions wouldn't have had zone access to Ponga either due to not spending enough time living in the zone (five years I believe) and he should have been forced to enter the open draft if he chose to pursue Aussie rules. Having said that, I assume the AFL would have made an exception in this circumstance due to it being a high profile junior athlete from the rugby codes choosing our sport instead of theirs.

I would've expected previous zone ties to be cancelled but he would be allowed to join the academy. However Brisbane would not have been able to recruit him because of the five year limit. There is no borderline in terms of cancelling previous zone affiliations - if you move, that's it.

We've seen this all play out before. GWS lost access to Elliott Himmelberg when his family moved from Canberra to Brisbane in the year before his draft eligibility. He then joined the Brisbane academy despite not being draft eligible for us, purely as a developmental prospect. GC have done similar with Lachie Weller (wasn't eligible because of insufficient time spent in zone, but joined and remained in the academy).

Another interesting test case is Charlie Cameron. He definitely boarded at Marist Ashgrove while his family were living in Mornington Island... yet was a member of the Lions academy. How does that work? Mornington Island definitely falls under our zone and even if this was taking place prior to us entering the AFL in 2011, we still had unlimited access to all U18 Queenslanders between 2008-10. So I don't understand how Charlie Cameron was able to take part in the Lions' academy program back then.

Maybe the rules are just more clear now than they were back then?

I know Wikipedia says he was a member, but FWIW the club doesn't consider Charlie an ex-member of our academy - Official AFL Website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club. It's possible he was in a predecessor program, given the introduction of the academy was only in 2010. And while you had unlimited access, players could decline to join you as a prelisted player - cf Beams, Dayne.

 

[GC2015]

I would've expected previous zone ties to be cancelled but he would be allowed to join the academy. However Brisbane would not have been able to recruit him because of the five year limit. There is no borderline in terms of cancelling previous zone affiliations - if you move, that's it.

We've seen this all play out before. GWS lost access to Elliott Himmelberg when his family moved from Canberra to Brisbane in the year before his draft eligibility. He then joined the Brisbane academy despite not being draft eligible for us, purely as a developmental prospect. GC have done similar with Lachie Weller (wasn't eligible because of insufficient time spent in zone, but joined and remained in the academy).

I don't think it's as concrete as you're suggesting. For example, Josh Fahey was a member of GWS's academy until 2020 when he moved to the Gold Coast and became a member of the Suns academy before returning to Canberra in his final year of junior footy in 2021 and re-joining the GWS academy. The Giants were still given academy access to Fahey despite moving states in his 17th year. I'm not sure about the specifics of E.Himmelberg's situation but Fahey was definitely a member of the Suns academy in 2020 and then got academy drafted to GWS in 2021. So it's not as simple as "you move, that's it."

Weller moved with his family from Tasmania to the Gold Coast in his 15th year and was ruled ineligible. Ponga moved with his family from Mackay to Brisbane in his 15th year and seemed like he was eligible for the Lions based on their attempts to sign him. Am I missing something here?

I know Wikipedia says he was a member, but FWIW the club doesn't consider Charlie an ex-member of our academy - Official AFL Website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club. It's possible he was in a predecessor program, given the introduction of the academy was only in 2010. And while you had unlimited access, players could decline to join you as a prelisted player - cf Beams, Dayne.

Charlie himself actually says he was in the Lions academy in this interview @ 1:30. You're probably in right in saying he was a part of a predecessor program but my understanding is if he had have continued with footy then he would have been zoned to us given we had pre-draft access to all U18 Queensland prospects until the end of 2012 (Cameron's first draft year). I believe the same thing happened with Alex Sexton who played for the Lions reserves team in 2010 before being zoned to the Suns in 2011. Beams wasn't ever a member of any academy.

 

[dlanod]

Ponga moved with his family from Mackay to Brisbane in his 15th year and seemed like he was eligible for the Lions based on their attempts to sign him. Am I missing something here?

He wouldn't have been eligible for drafting through the academy for either club. Players can be in the academy without being eligible for drafting as I pointed out.

The Beams example was because you had zone selections across all of Queensland, which was different to the academy rules. Players could decline to join as a zone selection and instead join the open draft, like Beams did.

Fahey is an unusual one. I guess it was because he rejoined his original club that he'd been part of the entire time. He wouldn't have been eligible for the Suns to take in the draft - same as the other guys who moved into zone with less than five years until their draft age.

 

[GC2015]

He wouldn't have been eligible for drafting through the academy for either club. Players can be in the academy without being eligible for drafting as I pointed out.

I get that and that's why Weller was forced into the national draft after living on the GC for four years ,but the Lions offered Ponga a five-year contract to join them back in 2017. How would that have worked? Surely you can't offer a five-year contract to a junior that you haven't even drafted yet, right? Especially one that you have no draft rights to. Either the AFL were ready to make an exception for Ponga or there was some kind of draft tampering going on.

The Beams example was because you had zone selections across all of Queensland, which was different to the academy rules. Players could decline to join as a zone selection and instead join the open draft, like Beams did.

I only brought up the zone access in the 2008-10 period just in case it applied to when Charlie Cameron was playing footy at Marist. Through the Sexton example we can see that regardless of where Cameron was playing footy prior to 2011, he would have been zoned to the Suns if he had continued to play footy in the lead up to his draft year. The Beams example doesn't apply here because he came through before the academy zones were established, whereas Ponga and Cameron came through after the zones were established.

Fahey is an unusual one. I guess it was because he rejoined his original club that he'd been part of the entire time. He wouldn't have been eligible for the Suns to take in the draft - same as the other guys who moved into zone with less than five years until their draft age.

So it's not as straightforward as some may think and there are allowances made for juniors who move interstate at a particular age. I know we've got a bottom ager in our U18s program this year named Caleb Nancarrow and he's been boarding at Scotch College in Melbourne since he was 14 but his parents are still based in Cairns so he remains in our academy.

At what point do you draw the line, though? From an objective point of view, I would suggest our academy hasn't had a lot to do with his development between the ages of 14-18 while he's been boarding at Scotch and has been playing for Oakleigh in the U18 Talent League as well as Vic Metro at the U15 National Championships... yet he'll very likely end up being drafted to us next year. I guess it's really no different to most father-son programs where the AFL club has very little to do with the development of the junior but reaps all the benefits at the end. Take what you can get in this sport.

 

[dlanod]

I get that and that's why Weller was forced into the national draft after living on the GC for four years ,but the Lions offered Ponga a five-year contract to join them back in 2017. How would that have worked? Surely you can't offer a five-year contract to a junior that you haven't even drafted yet, right? Especially one that you have no draft rights to. Either the AFL were ready to make an exception for Ponga or there was some kind of draft tampering going on.

This is the first I've heard of the contract deal and it's the first you've mentioned it. NFI unless it was under the the alternate talent pathway that existed (and I think still exists) for prelisting players that are playing other sports (cf: Blicavs).

At what point do you draw the line, though? From an objective point of view, I would suggest our academy hasn't had a lot to do with his development between the ages of 14-18 while he's been boarding at Scotch and has been playing for Oakleigh in the U18 Talent League as well as Vic Metro at the U15 National Championships... yet he'll very likely end up being drafted to us next year. I guess it's really no different to most father-son programs where the AFL club has very little to do with the development of the junior but reaps all the benefits at the end. Take what you can get in this sport.

If Fahey is the line, it seems to be whether you return to your original club.

It's also possible they didn't change the family's mailing address so from the POV of the AFL he never moved and was just training with the Suns' academy. This is how we see academy kids retaining their academy status despite boarding in Victoria - because the families still live in the zone, even though as you point out the academy really would have bugger all to do with the kid while he's away at school. Ultimately it doesn't matter where the kid is, it matters where the family is based. Another relevant example: GWS lost a kid from their academy selections because the AFL decided the family was actually based in Victoria despite their mailing address being in NSW.

Elliott Himmelberg and his family left at the start of his draft year after being in the Giants academy for six years and it was ruled that they couldn't pick him up. That's about as late as you can get, with full academy membership up until that point (his brother got drafted through it after all), and he was still made ineligible for his previous academy club to pick him up.

 

[briztoon]

Probably gives us the overall win in Div 2.