AFL Players aged 32+

[Vader]

There is much debate on this board over the futures of Goodwin, Edwards & McLeod. Edwards & Macca turned 32 earlier this month and Goodwin follows their lead in December.

To put this into perspective, I thought I'd take a look at the complete list of players who were 32 at the start of season 2008 (1/3/76 or earler).

Adelaide: Nil
Brisbane: Nil
Carlton: Nil
Collingwood: Scott Burns, #Shane Wakelin
Essendon: Dustin Fletcher
Footscray: #Scott West
Fremantle: *Peter Bell, *Shaun McManus
Geelong: Nil
Hawthorn: #Shane Crawford
Melbourne: *David Neitz
North Melbourne: Adam Simpson
Port Adelaide: Nil
Richmond: Matthew Richardson
St Kilda: *Robert Harvey (Fraser Gehrig born 3/3/76)
Sydney: #Peter Everitt
West Coast: Nil

* indicates that retirements have already been announced
# indicates that retirement is expected but not yet formally announced

Some of these players should never have lasted this long in the AFL (McManus). For others it was clearly one year too many (Everitt, Gehrig, West & Neitz). On the other hand, some have continued to perform well and will still be going around in 2009 (Richardson & Fletcher).

Having three veterans aged 32+ on the list is a significant risk. It's a risk taken by no other club in 2008 (and probably none in 2009).

Can the Crows afford to take this risk, especially considering that Burton will miss most of the season? It's not as if all of our veterans are performing at the levels they attained 5 years ago. Goodwin has struggled with a back injury for half the year. McLeod is only now returning to good form after struggling with a knee injury which eventually required surgery. Edwards has clearly been the best of the three over the season, but even he's had his moments (eg the Hawthorn game in Launceston).

As much as anything, list management is about risk management. It's the reason why Gill will be retained in 2009 despite his flaws - the risk that Tippett, Sellar & Walker won't develop sufficiently during the pre-season to force him out of the team.

McLeod is already signed on for 2009. Can we risk having both Goodwin & Edwards on our list next year as well?

 

[WALL-e]

There is much debate on this board over the futures of Goodwin, Edwards & McLeod. Edwards & Macca turned 32 earlier this month and Goodwin follows their lead in December.

To put this into perspective, I thought I'd take a look at the complete list of players who were 32 at the start of season 2008 (1/3/76 or earler).

Adelaide: Nil
Brisbane: Nil
Carlton: Nil
Collingwood: Scott Burns, #Shane Wakelin
Essendon: Dustin Fletcher
Footscray: #Scott West
Fremantle: *Peter Bell, *Shaun McManus
Geelong: Nil
Hawthorn: #Shane Crawford
Melbourne: *David Neitz
North Melbourne: Adam Simpson
Port Adelaide: Nil
Richmond: Matthew Richardson
St Kilda: *Robert Harvey (Fraser Gehrig born 3/3/76)
Sydney: #Peter Everitt
West Coast: Nil

* indicates that retirements have already been announced
# indicates that retirement is expected but not yet formally announced

Some of these players should never have lasted this long in the AFL (McManus). For others it was clearly one year too many (Everitt, Gehrig, West & Neitz). On the other hand, some have continued to perform well and will still be going around in 2009 (Richardson & Fletcher).

Having three veterans aged 32+ on the list is a significant risk. It's a risk taken by no other club in 2008 (and probably none in 2009).

Can the Crows afford to take this risk, especially considering that Burton will miss most of the season? It's not as if all of our veterans are performing at the levels they attained 5 years ago. Goodwin has struggled with a back injury for half the year. McLeod is only now returning to good form after struggling with a knee injury which eventually required surgery. Edwards has clearly been the best of the three over the season, but even he's had his moments (eg the Hawthorn game in Launceston).

As much as anything, list management is about risk management. It's the reason why Gill will be retained in 2009 despite his flaws - the risk that Tippett, Sellar & Walker won't develop sufficiently during the pre-season to force him out of the team.

McLeod is already signed on for 2009. Can we risk having both Goodwin & Edwards on our list next year as well?

One will go out of Edwards and Goodwin.

Goodwins back may play a rather large part in the topic.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The reason the other clubs don't have 31-32 year olds on their list is not because these clubs made a decision to strategically off-load their champions as soon as they turned thirty, it's because they don't have 31-32 year olds the quality of McLeod, Goodwin and Edwards.

 

[drdave]

I think we can keep those 3 plus Basset (assuming none put there hand up for retirement)

1. They are currently in or best 22
2. Outside of our 30 year olds we only have 4 players aged 27,28,29 and one is kenny
3. We are in position to push for flag(consistant finals, possibly consistant top 4 last year aside, If you dont rate yourself a chance from this form, you may as well not be playing)
4. Although may be top heavy with 30+, at the other end we probably have more 18 and 19 year olds than most other clubs.

I think because of the above reasons age should not come into it. You can divide our squad into 2 segments. A group of 10 players aged 18 and 19 most with no AFL experience, some with a couple of games.

This leaves a 2nd group of 30 players. I would only delist from this group based on form not age.

Obviously Edwards,Basset,Goodwin, Mcleod are in our best 22 as Neil craig selects them week in week out. I would keep them all.

Even if next year, say kite pushed Basset out of the starting 22, Basset would still offer security in depth.I think it would be great for adelaide to maintain these 4 on the list. If all 4 hit the wall during 2009 (unlikely to happen), so be it, we have the depth to cover it. And we can reasses next year based on form.

I would be looking elsewhere for delistings at end of the season, unless someone puts there hand up for retirement.

 

[WALL-e]

Look guys you can't have it both ways.

You can't winge and moan about Walker, Pertenko, Otten, Dangerfield, Kite etc not getting a game when these guys are playing whilst wanting to retain them.

Fact of the matter is hard decisions will be made in the good of our youth. Meaning like the Ben Hart decision, champions will be told when they will have to go rather than dictating terms themselfs.

Now that is harsh considering what great players they've been, but I wouldn't expect to see Bassett and one of Goodwin and Edwards gone.

Harsh but Fair

 

[drdave]

I personally have not asked to have it both ways, my post the opposite I suggested that Kite may replace Basset in Best 22, simarly Dangerfield for Goodwin ,pentrenko for edwards etc during season 2009 and beyond. Based on form, then so be it. I would delisit 4 players from the group of 30 20+ year olds based on form, and I believe it should be other players.

 

[WALL-e]

I personally have not asked to have it both ways, my post the opposite I suggested that Kite may replace Basset in Best 22, simarly Dangerfield for Goodwin ,pentrenko for edwards etc during season 2009 and beyond. Based on form, then so be it. I would delisit 4 players from the group of 30 20+ year olds based on form, and I believe it should be other players.

And which 4 players from the 20-30 range do you suggest gets their career shortened? (dont say Jericho, McGregor or Gallman because their already gone)

Whos it gonna be from the remains.

Those 30+ player have had a very good career and wont be here in 3 years no matter what.

One of those 20-30 range players could get their opportunity and rise to the occasion ala Doughty this year, do you want to pick 4 players to deny them that to a couple of the 30+ brigage can limp through an injury pressed year.

 

[Vader]

Even if next year, say kite pushed Basset out of the starting 22, Basset would still offer security in depth.I think it would be great for adelaide to maintain these 4 on the list. If all 4 hit the wall during 2009 (unlikely to happen), so be it, we have the depth to cover it. And we can reasses next year based on form.

I would not be surprised to see Macca, Goody & Edwards all retained, but neither would I be surprised to see one of them depart. Could go either way.

I would be VERY surprised if Bassett were to be retained. I have no doubt at all that 2009 would be one year too many for a player who has been a wonderful servant of the club.

 

[afc1991]

What is wrong with people?

The age of our squad and list has taken a dive in the last two years and there are a whole host of new faces in our line up at the moment. Of the kids we havent seen much of only Otten, Dangerfield, Walker and Petrenko have pushed for selection. Two of them have played in the last couple of weeks.

Point is our depth isnt great and with the last 2 seasons movements I dont think you'll see a cull. I rate Goodwin and Edwards NO CHANCE OF RETIRING/ DELISTING. McLeod would have to be a 50/50 chance, but if he wants to go on- he will.

If any regular player will go it'll be Bassett, but he may have saved himself in the last month.

 

[marvin]

Just musing -

Was it a year too far for Neitz, West, et al? Neitz's injury was a neck injury (IIRC), which is the sort or injury that could derail a 32+ year old, or a 20-something (James Begley springs to mind). The decline was there last year, I guess.

West has had leg problems this year, but prior to that was remarkably durable. If he had the same sort of injury racked year in his 20s, would we be saying it was a year too far?

Gehrig I'll buy, because he got talked/talked himself out of retirement. Just like Doc Clarke before him, that rarely seems to pay off.

Having said that, history shows two things. Firstly, bigger bodied players who've used strength and power as a weapon fall off the cliff of their best performances rapidly. Carey, Roo, Voss, the Scott brothers... dare I say, that doesn't bode well for Goodwin.

History also shows that to be a good AFL player beyond the age of 32, you need to be a freak of the highest order. You are way down one end of the bell curve. The fact that we've got 3-4 players we are talking about who might be that freak is just incredible.

 

[Mismatched]

The reason the other clubs don't have 31-32 year olds on their list is not because these clubs made a decision to strategically off-load their champions as soon as they turned thirty, it's because they don't have 31-32 year olds the quality of McLeod, Goodwin and Edwards.

Agree with this completely and I will also say what we don't lack in 31-32 year olds, we lack in quality 26-30 year olds that many other clubs would have.

We lucked out and got 3-4 (if you include Ricciuto) top quality midfielders all the same age who have been at that level for over 10 years now and whilst perhaps the consistency is not quite what it once was, the 3 who are left are still probably in out best 5 players at the club.

Now what the club has to decide is whether or not it is more beneficial to keep all three blokes around as long as possible or phase them out one by one as many on this board believe we should. Now if we had adequate stars in the 26-30 year old bracket, we probably could, but unless we believe that these blokes will struggle to get through the year injury wise, then IMO they should stay.

 

[spexau]

Yeah our lack of quality 26-30 year olds is thanks to the Gary Ayres era.

Atleast we'll have a good group of players come through all around the same age from here on in

 

[crowsup]

If I have read NC and co., I don't think they will delist a first choice unless they believe they have a ready made replacement. We need to consider how many times have the Bassett, Goodwin, Edwards and McLeod have been sent to the SANFL because of form or injuries.
It appears that Bassett is the prime candidate to be delisted/retired. Does anybody know who could take his place AND do as well as him?
Some posters are assuming that Kite will take over from him next year. Would these be the same posters that will assume we can get rid of Gill because Sellar/Tippett will take over from him?
I'm not saying that none of the above mentioned veterans will be delisted or forced to retire. The problem I have is that I cannot see who can take their place and play as well as they are playing at the moment.
I think that delisting any of the four would be very unfair to them, considering that Burton got another year when they have no idea on how he will come back.

 

[Mong]

It appears that Bassett is the prime candidate to be delisted/retired. Does anybody know who could take his place AND do as well as him?

Scott Stevens.

 

[Vader]

It appears that Bassett is the prime candidate to be delisted/retired. Does anybody know who could take his place AND do as well as him?
Some posters are assuming that Kite will take over from him next year. Would these be the same posters that will assume we can get rid of Gill because Sellar/Tippett will take over from him?

Massie and/or Moran to take over from Bassett in 2009. Both ready now. Kite to take the reins in 2010.

 

[crowsup]

Massie and/or Moran to take over from Bassett in 2009. Both ready now. Kite to take the reins in 2010.

At the moment, both Massie and Moran and Stevens are playing at the same time as Bassett. If one of them plays in Bassett's place, who plays in their place?

 

[Damp Squarie]

What is wrong with people?

The age of our squad and list has taken a dive in the last two years and there are a whole host of new faces in our line up at the moment. Of the kids we havent seen much of only Otten, Dangerfield, Walker and Petrenko have pushed for selection. Two of them have played in the last couple of weeks.

Point is our depth isnt great and with the last 2 seasons movements I dont think you'll see a cull. I rate Goodwin and Edwards NO CHANCE OF RETIRING/ DELISTING. McLeod would have to be a 50/50 chance, but if he wants to go on- he will.

If any regular player will go it'll be Bassett, but he may have saved himself in the last month.

If Bassett has saved himself,then lets redraft Torney who is a better footballer by a street.

 

[Mismatched]

At the moment, both Massie and Moran and Stevens are playing at the same time as Bassett. If one of them plays in Bassett's place, who plays in their place?

Quite frankly, we don't need Basset and Stevens both in the same team, hence why Stevens has played forward, back and in the ruck, however IMO he's best suited to that 3rd tall defender role that Basset currently owns. If you do that, you can bring in a Tippet or perhaps a Sellar or Walker to play forward.

 

[Vader]

At the moment, both Massie and Moran and Stevens are playing at the same time as Bassett. If one of them plays in Bassett's place, who plays in their place?

We have an abundance of youngsters pushing for games next year - Otten would be the logical replacement for Massie. Griffin & Tippett are the ruckmen currently out of the side (for replacing Moran). I can definitely see us playing Maric, Tippett & Moran in the same side, given the flexibility offered by the latter pair.

 

[crowsup]

Quite frankly, we don't need Basset and Stevens both in the same team, hence why Stevens has played forward, back and in the ruck, however IMO he's best suited to that 3rd tall defender role that Basset currently owns. If you do that, you can bring in a Tippet or perhaps a Sellar or Walker to play forward.

If we do that, we are then assuming that Tippett, Sellar or Walker will do next year, as well as Stevens has been doing this year.
That may very well be the case but it is still only an assumption.
If Bassett had been replaced a few times during the year because of form, I would agree entirely. But he has not. Even when he had some trouble after that concussion against the paps.
It may very well be that NC will assume that his position will be covered adequately. But if Bassett wants to continue and NC allows it, it wont necessarily be a bad decision, as some of the posters believe.

 

[Mismatched]

If we do that, we are then assuming that Tippett, Sellar or Walker will do next year, as well as Stevens has been doing this year.
That may very well be the case but it is still only an assumption.
If Bassett had been replaced a few times during the year because of form, I would agree entirely. But he has not. Even when he had some trouble after that concussion against the paps.
It may very well be that NC will assume that his position will be covered adequately. But if Bassett wants to continue and NC allows it, it wont necessarily be a bad decision, as some of the posters believe.

Stevens has been a spare parts man this year, your making a big deal out of practically nothing. Stevens has been playing too well to be dropped and I think Basset was running on brownie points for a while, in the hope, which he has, that he will regain some form. Hence both have been kept in the side when really, we probably didn't need them. Basset leaving would allow us to play Stevens in that 3rd tall which, IMO is his best position and bring in another specialist tall forward/ruckman who can play forward, which, IMO we are lacking, be it a Tippet, Walker even Griffin or Sellar.

 

[Mong]

If we do that, we are then assuming that Tippett, Sellar or Walker will do next year, as well as Stevens has been doing this year.

It doesn't work like that. It's the 50 game players who are in their early to mid 20s that will improve to become players of that level. Tippett and Mackay and those guys will then improve a bit to fill their shoes and new rookies like Walker will be the next Tippett and Mackay. Everyone advances one level in their development to fill the gaps left by those ahead of them. Ideally everyone under about 24 or 25 improves and that hopefully covers for the decline and retirement of older players.

The mix might change a bit, we might lose a player like Bassett but improve in different positions like midfield, but that's ok.

 

[jackster83]

At the moment, both Massie and Moran and Stevens are playing at the same time as Bassett. If one of them plays in Bassett's place, who plays in their place?

Hentschel

 

[Crow-mo]

There is much debate on this board over the futures of Goodwin, Edwards & McLeod. Edwards & Macca turned 32 earlier this month and Goodwin follows their lead in December.

To put this into perspective, I thought I'd take a look at the complete list of players who were 32 at the start of season 2008 (1/3/76 or earler).

Adelaide: Nil
Brisbane: Nil
Carlton: Nil
Collingwood: Scott Burns, #Shane Wakelin
Essendon: Dustin Fletcher
Footscray: #Scott West
Fremantle: *Peter Bell, *Shaun McManus
Geelong: Nil
Hawthorn: #Shane Crawford
Melbourne: *David Neitz
North Melbourne: Adam Simpson
Port Adelaide: Nil
Richmond: Matthew Richardson
St Kilda: *Robert Harvey (Fraser Gehrig born 3/3/76)
Sydney: #Peter Everitt
West Coast: Nil

* indicates that retirements have already been announced
# indicates that retirement is expected but not yet formally announced

Some of these players should never have lasted this long in the AFL (McManus). For others it was clearly one year too many (Everitt, Gehrig, West & Neitz). On the other hand, some have continued to perform well and will still be going around in 2009 (Richardson & Fletcher).

Having three veterans aged 32+ on the list is a significant risk. It's a risk taken by no other club in 2008 (and probably none in 2009).

Can the Crows afford to take this risk, especially considering that Burton will miss most of the season? It's not as if all of our veterans are performing at the levels they attained 5 years ago. Goodwin has struggled with a back injury for half the year. McLeod is only now returning to good form after struggling with a knee injury which eventually required surgery. Edwards has clearly been the best of the three over the season, but even he's had his moments (eg the Hawthorn game in Launceston).

As much as anything, list management is about risk management. It's the reason why Gill will be retained in 2009 despite his flaws - the risk that Tippett, Sellar & Walker won't develop sufficiently during the pre-season to force him out of the team.

McLeod is already signed on for 2009. Can we risk having both Goodwin & Edwards on our list next year as well?

interesting post.

this time the conclusions follow strongly and cleanly from the static evidence presented. persuasive

 

[Crow-mo]

The reason the other clubs don't have 31-32 year olds on their list is not because these clubs made a decision to strategically off-load their champions as soon as they turned thirty, it's because they don't have 31-32 year olds the quality of McLeod, Goodwin and Edwards.

also true.

I think the real nub is somewhere in between Vader & Carl's position.