Andrew Hastie

[schneebly111]

What are western values? Because we're hearing so much about some really ill defined idea and to me it seems like the a right wing attempt to highjack the idea, define the concept themselves and take ownership of it as the "defenders".

I personally think it’s time Australia embraced more Eastern values (not solely eastern but a mix of western and eastern). Collective rights, a higher value on education, more respect for harmony in society

With our position in Asia and now approaching a quarter of us being of Asian descent anyway it’s time to combine both cultures into one.

I’m European descent but I have no problem with this country adopting a few more Eastern values.

 

[Number37]

They aren't cognisant of what exists outside of what Gina Rinehart says is reality. They are going through the death throes of the disintegration of their putrid party.

I don't mind, do you?

I do not mind at all.

 

[Not Important]

They aren't cognisant of what exists outside of what Gina Rinehart says is reality. They are going through the death throes of the disintegration of their putrid party.

I don't mind, do you?

a strong centre-right party is arguably good for democracy. the cluster**** maga outfit we have now due to the likes of rhinehart and failed lib apparatchik credlin is a disaster.

 

[schneebly111]

a strong centre-right party is arguably good for democracy. the cluster**** maga outfit we have now due to the likes of rhinehart and failed lib apparatchik credlin is a disaster.

Well that would be a Teal style party or one of the Euro Centre right parties. The current “Liberal” party is not that

 

[Cyg1992]

What are western values? Because we're hearing so much about some really ill defined idea and to me it seems like the a right wing attempt to highjack the idea, define the concept themselves and take ownership of it as the "defenders".

That's exactly what they're doing, is hijacking it for their racist agenda.

For them Western civilisation and Western culture is merely all the old power structures and institutions from colonial times with a side of bad American fast food, UFC and unconditional support of Zionist Israel.

When people like trump, tommy yaxley, Orban or Tony Abbott shout it out, it's them yearning for the days of white supremacy and domination. Nothing more.

 

[NTRabbit]

"Western values" is a two word, media accepted (polite company? Hiding in plain site?) shorthand for the Fourteen Words and 88 Precepts, and that's all - anyone banging on about "western values" can automatically be categorised as a white nationalist or neo-nazi, and treated as such

 

[Fire]

"Western values" is a two word, media accepted (polite company? Hiding in plain site?) shorthand for the Fourteen Words and 88 Precepts, and that's all - anyone banging on about "western values" can automatically be categorised as a white nationalist or neo-nazi, and treated as such

This is sadly the case.

There are legitimate western values, which are worth defending. But when the most vocal 'defenders' seem to not know what they are, and even advocate for the opposite (such as Christian nationalism, anti-homosexuality, championing the destruction of institutions, etc.) Then it becomes pretty obvious that it's just about being white and authoritative.

In reality the real threat to western values appears to be coming from those who are claiming to defend it.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

This is sadly the case.

There are legitimate western values, which are worth defending. But when the most vocal 'defenders' seem to not know what they are, and even advocate for the opposite (such as Christian nationalism, anti-homosexuality, championing the destruction of institutions, etc.) Then it becomes pretty obvious that it's just about being white and authoritative.

In reality the real threat to western values appears to be coming from those who are claiming to defend it.

It's obvious at this point what sort of person the "western values" crowd want society to cater to above all others (male, white, Christian, straight, able-bodied, neurotypical, raising children, and in practice if not in theory, wealthy).

But that one demographic can never win elections by themselves. Outside of mining communities, I can't think of anywhere they would make up a majority (perhaps military towns if wealth is excluded as a factor).

The movement is therefore kept viable by people who for one reason or another, don't fit the "western values" idea of the ubermensch. I wonder if those people understand they'll be second class citizens in the society Hastie and friends want, or if they know and they think it's worth it if other people suffer more.

 

[Northalives]

What are western values? Because we're hearing so much about some really ill defined idea and to me it seems like the a right wing attempt to highjack the idea, define the concept themselves and take ownership of it as the "defenders".

The LNP/right wing definition of "western values" is white, Christian, conservative hegemony. As you say, let them clearly define this and then defend it.

 

[Northalives]

It’s a vast majority Anglo Celtic nation to them. Look at their member base, their media allies, their donors. I’d be surprised if they realised non Caucasian Australians are allowed to vote at times.

Also the “Anglo Celtic nation” - up until the 60s Anglo British Protestants treated Celtic Irish Catholics as traitors and unwanted scum, loyal to the Pope not the Crown.




In 1996, when Howard came to power and Hanson came to prominence, the Asian population was 4-5%. Now it’s closer to 20%. And they vote, mostly in marginal seats.

Absolutely. I am 100% with you.

 

[Northalives]

I do not mind at all.

Good onya brother, I didn't think you did.

 

[Northalives]

a strong centre-right party is arguably good for democracy. the cluster**** maga outfit we have now due to the likes of rhinehart and failed lib apparatchik credlin is a disaster.

As schneebly111 said, that would be the Teals.

I have a little theory about the Teals. I reckon that they are a reincarnation of Don Chipp's party, the defunct Democrats who also started life as disaffected Liberals but without the rigid party structures.

The other difference between Chipp's Democrats and the rise of the Teals, is that Chipp and others moved to the left of the Liberal Party but with the Teals, the Liberal Party have moved to the right, waaay to the right.

I can't see Kate Chaney or Allegra Spender attending a public meeting and sharing a stage with the great Frank Hardy, an inspiration to thousands including myself as Don Chipp did.

So long as the Teals remain "independent", they will continue to win their seats. If they make the mistake and become a political party, then they will probably suffer the same fate as the Democrats.

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

 

[Northalives]

View attachment 2441634

hahahaha, I like that.

 

[schneebly111]

Saw a great comment from Kos Samaras recently somewhere in social media.

The Liberals had an opportunity under Howard and then from 2013-2022 to basically become undefeatable in future elections.

If they had appealed to the strengths of the migrants class they were bringing in, mostly Asian, they could have appealed to their admiration of education and strengthened universities and the status of professions. They could have appealed to Asian values which promote unity and strong family relations. They could have built strong communities that Asians value. They had that chance. If they had done that successfully they’d have a lock on those multicultural seats.

But instead they let casual racism win and decided it was more important to appeal to rural bogans who were only ever going to vote for them anyway, and drove new migrants to Labor.

 

[Seeds]

I personally think it’s time Australia embraced more Eastern values (not solely eastern but a mix of western and eastern). Collective rights, a higher value on education, more respect for harmony in society

With our position in Asia and now approaching a quarter of us being of Asian descent anyway it’s time to combine both cultures into one.

I’m European descent but I have no problem with this country adopting a few more Eastern values.

Eastern values relative to western are predetermined social hierarchy, age before merit, shame instead of guilt. This generates less support for human rights and a greater focus on class based rights, greater propensity for dicatorships over democracy and more structural racism and sexism.

They may be more collectivist but not in the way you think of collectivism. Its collectivism based on social class. Not on equality.

No thank you.

The best thing out of eastern values is buddhism. But this is more a niche then the norm and even buddhism has its problems.

 

[schneebly111]

Eastern values relative to western are predetermined social hierarchy, age before merit, shame instead of guilt. This generates less support for human rights and a greater focus on class based rights, greater propensity for dicatorships over democracy and more structural racism and sexism.

They may be more collectivist but not in the way you think of collectivism. Its collectivism based on social class. Not on equality.

No thank you.

The best thing out of eastern values is buddhism. But this is more a niche then the norm and even buddhism has its problems.

Not exactly. I said a mix of western and eastern.

I’ll let AI generate a difference:

While broad generalizations risk oversimplifying diverse cultures, a fundamental difference often lies in the focus on the individual versus the group. Western values, heavily influenced by Enlightenment ideals, typically emphasize individualism, personal autonomy, direct communication, and universal rules that apply to all, often rooted in a linear, progress-oriented worldview. In contrast, Eastern values, shaped by traditions like Confucianism and Taoism, generally prioritize collectivism, social harmony, hierarchical relationships, indirect communication to maintain face, and contextual understanding, viewing the world in more cyclical and interdependent terms. This core distinction between the independent self and the interconnected self profoundly influences concepts of success, morality, and social interaction.


You’ve just ascribed what you see to be the negatives of Eastern values. At the end of the day there’s more value on national multiculturalism in some Asian nations (Singapore the best example) than Australia. The focus is on collective or community rights, not class rights.

I believe we should concentrate more on the we over the me and adopting some aspects of Eastern is a part of that. I especially admire their respect for family which seems to have been lost a bit in this country, or warped by religious fundamentalists.

At the end of the day it may not be something you get to have a say on. In our major cities we are already 1/3rd Asian. I’ve seen estimates that by 2050 Australia’s population will be a 35% Asian heritage and over 50% in major cities.

These trends point only one way. You can get onboard with creating our future Eurasian (not solely Asian or European) nation or you’ll have to flee to a small country town, the last refuge of white Australia.

 

[The Punter]

You can get onboard with creating our future Eurasian (not solely Asian or European) nation or you’ll have to flee to a small country town, the last refuge of white Australia.

This is "like it or leave" in other words from the other side of the aisle.

The issue with collectivism is being held responsible for someone else's errors. Individualism is intrinsic to human nature, it's just how it manifests that is different. One can easily be a humanitarian and be an individualist.

 

[schneebly111]

This is "like it or leave" in other words from the other side of the aisle.

The issue with collectivism is being held responsible for someone else's errors. Individualism is intrinsic to human nature, it's just how it manifests that is different. One can easily be a humanitarian and be an individualist.

There’s more people on the planet who live in cultures that hold collectivism above individualism. That’s actually a very western centric viewpoint to say individualism is the default.



I think sometimes Australians need to have a good look at that picture. It probably explains our position and future moreso than anything else.

It’s not “like it or leave it”. It’s just harnessing our current and future projected nation to be at its fullest potential.

We’ve had several big changes in our nation’s cultural identity. The first being 1788 of course. The second was the influx of migrants, many from non Anglo Saxon backgrounds, from the 1850s for the gold rush. The third was the slowdown from 1890s-1900s with the White Australia Policy which harmed this nations economically. The fourth was the ending of the Policy from the 1950s with the arrival of continental European migrants into the 1970s with the formal adoption of multiculturalism.

I believe it’s time for a fifth shift, a change from multiculturalism under a primarily Anglo centric banner to a shift towards a mixed Eurasian identity as the cultural norm. All would is do is formalise the identity of the nation that already exists or is soon to exist.

 

[The Punter]

There’s more people on the planet who live in cultures that hold collectivism above individualism. That’s actually a very western centric viewpoint to say individualism is the default.

View attachment 2441944

I think sometimes Australians need to have a good look at that picture. It probably explains our position and future moreso than anything else.

It’s not “like it or leave it”. It’s just harnessing our current and future projected nation to be at its fullest potential.

We’ve had several big changes in our nation’s cultural identity. The first being 1788 of course. The second was the influx of migrants, many from non Anglo Saxon backgrounds, from the 1850s for the gold rush. The third was the slowdown from 1890s-1900s with the White Australia Policy which harmed this nations economically. The fourth was the ending of the Policy from the 1950s with the arrival of continental European migrants into the 1970s with the formal adoption of multiculturalism.

I believe it’s time for a fifth shift, a change from multiculturalism under a primarily Anglo centric banner to a shift towards a mixed Eurasian identity as the cultural norm. All would is do is formalise the identity of the nation that already exists or is soon to exist.

You told the poster to leave cities if he didn't like where things are headed. Same suggestion as those you oppose.

I think the history of those places inside the circle says a bit about why they are not as far down the individualism road as others. The Russians like being ruled as well.

While I think a lot of the right-wing commentary is an overreaction or overcorrection, I do believe that the ability to even have this conversation in the manner and the place we are now is largely due to Western values. In most of that circle I cannot mention June 4, 1989 without repercussions.

The issue for Western countries is acknowledging the undeniable hurt that has been caused by them without completely running away from everything good that has been done by the West because they are the West. It's a huge part of where we are now politically.

 

[schneebly111]

I think the history of those places inside the circle says a bit about why they are not as far down the individualism road as others.

There you go again. The “individualism road” - so all societies will eventually accept that Western culture is the “norm” and will adopt their culture.

It’s hard to accept anything but Western culture will reign supreme if that’s what you’ve been brought up on (or in Hastie’s case indoctrinated into it) but the centre of gravity of world affairs is moving towards the centre of that circle.

Australians can adapt to it (and that by combining our cultures, not purely adopting Asian values as soon here have tried to strawman me) or it can go the way of the declining U.S. empire.

I would say we already have - Australia took a far stricter approach to COVID, both borders and vaccine mandates, than most western countries did. I believe because our culture is already subtly being influenced by Asian culture we adopted those measures without too much pushback.

Or the other hand if Hastie somehow becomes PM you think we’ll all be flocking back to churches, waving little flags around on Jan 26 and boasting about our “individual rights and freedoms”?

 

[Not Important]

This is "like it or leave" in other words from the other side of the aisle.

The issue with collectivism is being held responsible for someone else's errors. Individualism is intrinsic to human nature, it's just how it manifests that is different. One can easily be a humanitarian and be an individualist.

of course, but collectivism is where the power to change generally comes from.

on another matter, who would be your preferred choice to lead your party out of the wilderness?

 

[The Punter]

There you go again. The “individualism road” - so all societies will eventually accept that Western culture is the “norm” and will adopt their culture.

It’s hard to accept anything but Western culture will reign supreme if that’s what you’ve been brought up on (or in Hastie’s case indoctrinated into it) but the centre of gravity of world affairs is moving towards the centre of that circle.

Australians can adapt to it (and that by combining our cultures, not purely adopting Asian values as soon here have tried to strawman me) or it can go the way of the declining U.S. empire.

I would say we already have - Australia took a far stricter approach to COVID, both borders and vaccine mandates, than most western countries did. I believe because our culture is already subtly being influenced by Asian culture we adopted those measures without too much pushback.

Or the other hand if Hastie somehow becomes PM you think we’ll all be flocking back to churches, waving little flags around on Jan 26 and boasting about our “individual rights and freedoms”?

The US have cultural issues all of their own; that is to say, they are unique US issues rather than Western issues. Of course we need to adapt at some level, but there are just things that have enabled us to be who we are: capitalism, pluralism, democracy, commitment to institutions, liberalism. A lot of those don't work as well as they should if we lean too much to collectivism.

The COVID example: I think we went harder because our geographical circumstances made these much more likely to be effective than in other places where the cat was largely already out of the bag. And we are a largely compliant people, contrary to the popular belief. We won't be as compliant next time because trust was abused. Brett Sutton's remarks of last week are a good indicator of why compliance will be lesser next time.

We won't be flocking back to churches any time soon, but that's not in spite of Western values. I mean, I'm a Catholic and free will is a key teaching of the church.

of course, but collectivism is where the power to change generally comes from.

on another matter, who would be your preferred choice to lead your party out of the wilderness?

Me.

In all seriousness, Ms Ley has been in the job for a short time and deserves a good go. Apart from taking a little too long to deal with Senator Nampijinpa Price, I don't think she has made too many mistakes since becoming Opposition Leader.

 

[Saint]

It seems obvious to me that a mix of individualism and collectivism is required to get the best out of people and the best for the whole. And that we can't do without a mix of both. The Yin and Yang of eastern philosophy rather than the dichotomy of Good and Evil too often portrayed in the west for millienia.

Too much individualism and we get what the West is at the moment where Christianity is about prosperity and wealth rather than humility. Huge inequality and overall deteriorating standard of living. And if something goes wrong, we look for individuals to blame rather than looking at the collective as a whole.

Too much collectivism and we see authoritarianism and class-ism which sees too many people reduced in value to the point that their output and freedom is curtailed and individual output and sense of self is reduced.

Always be wary of somebody who appeals for full Socialism or full Capitalism. They'll both end up in a version of authoritarianism. One where the rich rule with their capital and the other where the leader-class rules with power (when appeals to the greater good begin to fail).

Hastie is "Good vs Evil" "Capitalism is great".
He cannot see the forest for the trees.

 

[schneebly111]

Back to the subject at hand.

Rumours going around the internet the National Right faction (that’s its official name) powerbrokers reportedly told Taylor last week he is no longer their preferred candidate for leadership, that mantle is now officially Hastie.