Another Rabbit-proof Fence

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IntheNet

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#27
We had lots of rabbits around our house; my dog solved that situation in 'bout a week... god old boy! You guys just need some Blue Tick hounds... they're good on coons and rabbits...
 

stompie

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Thread starter #29
OK, champ. Do a search, and then tell me all my posts are short.
That's a Mantis kind of thing to do. I don't care that much about exposing you for being a hypocrite.

If you were an interesting poster like Kerr = God etc then it would be worthwhile to find a funny comment or idea. No offense intended, but I can't think of anything you've ever posted that made me laugh or think, 'I've never thought about it that way before.'
 

MightyFighting

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#31
That's a Mantis kind of thing to do. I don't care that much about exposing you for being a hypocrite.

If you were an interesting poster like Kerr = God etc then it would be worthwhile to find a funny comment or idea. No offense intended, but I can't think of anything you've ever posted that made me laugh or think, 'I've never thought about it that way before.'
Haha... What a pathetic troll.

If K=G is your idea of a thought provoking poster, then I'm glad my posts leave your mind in its state of atrophy.


P.S. I like Mantis. You can insult me by likening me to her. She's a far better person than you, at any rate.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #32
Haha... What a pathetic troll.

If K=G is your idea of a thought provoking poster, then I'm glad my posts leave your mind in its state of atrophy.


P.S. I like Mantis. You can insult me by likening me to her. She's a far better person than you, at any rate.
Sorry. I didn't realise you had such thin skin. I was just explaining why I had little inclination to read your posts. If you are that touchy, I'll try to be nicer when dealing with you in future. So, to make you feel better, your posts are very nice. In fact, they are even better than Mantises.
 

MightyFighting

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#33
Sorry. I didn't realise you had such thin skin. I was just explaining why I had little inclination to read your posts. If you are that touchy, I'll try to be nicer when dealing with you in future. So, to make you feel better, your posts are very nice. In fact, they are even better than Mantises.
For the hard of thinking: A pathetic troll is one which fails to cause offence.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #34
For the hard of thinking: A pathetic troll is one which fails to cause offence.
But I wasn't trying to cause you offence. I was merely explaining why I was not emotionally erect at the prospect of reading your old posts.

Your reaction seem that you have taken offence. To show there are no hard feelings, let me offer you some words of encouragement. I know you try hard in your posts. Keep up the good effort:thumbsu:
 

MightyFighting

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#35
But I wasn't trying to cause you offence. I was merely explaining why I was not emotionally erect at the prospect of reading your old posts.

Your reaction seem that you have taken offence. To show there are no hard feelings, let me offer you some words of encouragement. I know you try hard in your posts. Keep up the good effort:thumbsu:
That's not as annoying as you think it is, Stompie. In fact, your constant unsubstantiated accusations do get tiresome, but this silly passive-aggressive posting just removes the illusion that your posts might actually carry your genuine misguided opinions.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #36
That's not as annoying as you think it is, Stompie. In fact, your constant unsubstantiated accusations do get tiresome, but this silly passive-aggressive posting just removes the illusion that your posts might actually carry your genuine misguided opinions.
You respond to my posts. I don't respond to yours (except the posts that are in response to mine.)

I think there is a message in that for us all.
 

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midorigreenwood

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#38
Its obvious Stompie is a troll trying to show off his typing skills.....hence the constant "leftie" baiting :/


darn.... only one sentence...... lucky its double spaced...
 

Richo83

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#39
It wasn't actually a complaint. It was more of illustrating an example of how a moralistic cause is often used for the financial and political gain of vested interests.

It is very important to appreciate that in the arena of environmentalism. Although we need environmentalists, we also need to appreciate that they are businessness, and serve political interests. If we don't appreciate that, they will continue to serve up solutions that are full of holes.
You seem to think that using one example of an environmental decision justifies your opinion on every environmentalist or environmental decision. Economists make mistakes too, politicians all the time. The rabbit-proof fence was a waste of money and useless, but considering the fact that when it was built (1901-7), Australia didn't really have the resources or the knowhow to build a 100% rabbit proof fence for such a long distance (over 1,900 kms)

It's a red herring but it needs to be pointed out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we all look at previous mistakes with absolute clarity, but I'm sure not that many knew at the time that the fence would be such a failure.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #40
You seem to think that using one example of an environmental decision justifies your opinion on every environmentalist or environmental decision. Economists make mistakes too, politicians all the time. The rabbit-proof fence was a waste of money and useless, but considering the fact that when it was built (1901-7), Australia didn't really have the resources or the knowhow to build a 100% rabbit proof fence for such a long distance (over 1,900 kms)

It's a red herring but it needs to be pointed out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we all look at previous mistakes with absolute clarity, but I'm sure not that many knew at the time that the fence would be such a failure.
Common sense stipulated it would be a failure, but common sense is often lost underneath moralistic grand standing.

Anyway, I have a better environmental story, which is basically an environmental organisation acting corruptly to get a bribe. While I was in New Zealand, I was chatting to a mining engineer at the pub. He was telling me about a $400 million mine that was under threat because environmentalists found 50 snails with slightly different shell markings, and then wanted to do research to ascertain whether it was a new sub-species.

The mining company told the environmentalists that they were free to take the snails away and relocate them, but this option was deemed to be unacceptable as the snails were not native to any other sub-habitat. Eventually, it was decided that they would need to be permanently housed in a climate controlled fridge that would mimic their natural environment, and they would have a personal full-time carer to monitor their breeding. Furthermore, the fridge would be based in a North Island city, rather than the South Island community where they snails belong. The reason? Because the environmentalists considered relocating one of their own to live on the south Island to be too onerous, even though delaying a $400 million development, and putting the jobs of 200 miners at risk was not too onerous.

And the cost of the whole snail relocation and care? $10 million dollars; paid for by the mine. That was going to work out at $10,000 per snail.

It should be stressed that there is no plan in place for any future relocation. Presumably, the snails will forever be North Island fridge snails now.

But there is a ray of sunshine. The snails are being collected as we speak, and rather then being a mere 50 snails, they have found around 500, so the cost has come down to $1,000 per snail.

As I said previously, there are many moralistic causes that are mere excuses to get money, and you can see them for what they are if you look at the lack of common sense in the solutions that they offer.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #41
Its obvious Stompie is a troll trying to show off his typing skills.....hence the constant "leftie" baiting :/


darn.... only one sentence...... lucky its double spaced...
Whenever someone disagrees with a lefty, they are a troll, however if a lefty disgrees with someone else, they are a free thinker?

Keep yourself in denial luv.
 

MightyFighting

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#42
Common sense stipulate it would be a failure, but common sense is often underneath moralistic grand standing.

Anyway, I have a better environmental story, which is basically an environmental organisation acting corruptly to get a bribe. While I was in New Zealand, I was chatting to a mining engineer at the pub. He was telling me about a $400 million mine that was under threat because environmentalists found 50 snails with slightly different shell markings, and then wanted to do research to ascertain whether it was a new sub-species.

The mining company told the environmentalists that they were free to take the snails away and relocate them, but this option was deemed to be unacceptable as the snails were not native to any other sub-habitat. Eventually, it was decided that they would need to be permanently housed in a climate controlled fridge that would mimic their natural environment, and they would have a personal full-time carer to monitor their breeding. Furthermore, the fridge would be based in a North Island city, rather than the South Island community where they snails belong. The reason? Because the environmentalists considered relocating one of their own to live on the south Island to be too onerous, even though delaying a $400 million development, and putting the jobs of 200 miners at risk was not too onerous.

And the cost of the whole snail relocation and care? $10 million dollars; paid for by the mine. That was going to work out at $10,000 per snail.

It should be stressed that there is no plan in place for any future relocation. Presumably, the snails will forever be North Island fridge snails now.

But there is a ray of sunshine. The snails are being collected now, and rather then being a mere 50 snails, they have found around 500, so the cost has come down to $1,000 per snail.

As I said previously, their are many moralistic causes that are mere excuses to get money, and you can see them for what they are if you look at the solutions that they offer.
Those people you have chosen to label "environmentalists" are in fact biologists, biologists specialising in snails. It is only fair that a mine's owner should have to pay for the protection of the species the mine endangers. The snails would have had to have been taken to the academic institution which was going to oversee them. It would not have been feasible to move a researcher permanently from his or her institution just so they can become a full-time snail vet.

Once again, you're jumping at shadows.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #44
Those people you have chosen to label "environmentalists" are in fact biologists, biologists specialising in snails. It is only fair that a mine's owner should have to pay for the protection of the species the mine endangers. The snails would have had to have been taken to the academic institution which was going to oversee them. It would not have been feasible to move a researcher permanently from his or her institution just so they can become a full-time snail vet.

Once again, you're jumping at shadows.
I disagree. It is not morally right to evolve snails right into full time fridge snails. The biologists should have moved to study them in a natural habitat if the snails had such value.
 

Richo83

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#45
Common sense stipulated it would be a failure, but common sense is often lost underneath moralistic grand standing.

Anyway, I have a better environmental story, which is basically an environmental organisation acting corruptly to get a bribe. While I was in New Zealand, I was chatting to a mining engineer at the pub. He was telling me about a $400 million mine that was under threat because environmentalists found 50 snails with slightly different shell markings, and then wanted to do research to ascertain whether it was a new sub-species.

The mining company told the environmentalists that they were free to take the snails away and relocate them, but this option was deemed to be unacceptable as the snails were not native to any other sub-habitat. Eventually, it was decided that they would need to be permanently housed in a climate controlled fridge that would mimic their natural environment, and they would have a personal full-time carer to monitor their breeding. Furthermore, the fridge would be based in a North Island city, rather than the South Island community where they snails belong. The reason? Because the environmentalists considered relocating one of their own to live on the south Island to be too onerous, even though delaying a $400 million development, and putting the jobs of 200 miners at risk was not too onerous.

And the cost of the whole snail relocation and care? $10 million dollars; paid for by the mine. That was going to work out at $10,000 per snail.

It should be stressed that there is no plan in place for any future relocation. Presumably, the snails will forever be North Island fridge snails now.

But there is a ray of sunshine. The snails are being collected as we speak, and rather then being a mere 50 snails, they have found around 500, so the cost has come down to $1,000 per snail.

As I said previously, there are many moralistic causes that are mere excuses to get money, and you can see them for what they are if you look at the lack of common sense in the solutions that they offer.
To be honest I don't have a care for mining companies. Destroy the environment, produce large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, try and dig up wildlife parks, steal resources from third world nations, when someone whines about the hardships billion dollar earning companies endure, I say, cry me a river.

But as MF said, they were biologists, not environmentalists. How would you like it if the building of a mine destroyed the last rare Sumatran tiger?

And you say that they acted corruptly to get a bribe, the mining company didn't bribe them, they simply (and rightly) covered the costs of the relocation, sine they want to dig there. The biologists didn't make or earn any money from this incident, so it's not corruption. It's just that they wanted to save a species from extinction. All the money went to the snails.

Lastly, you heard this story in a PUB from a mining expert (probably drunk and into his anti-greenies rant). Sorry if this story seems a little BS. Why don't you try and show some balance and try to investigate why these animals were saved?

All in all, another fail. Keep trying though.
 

MightyFighting

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#46
I disagree. It is not morally right to evolve snails right into full time fridge snails. The biologists should have moved to study them in a natural habitat if the snails had such value.
At least you're calling them "biologists" now. But anyway, it depends on what their purpose is.

To keep the species in existence would have necessitated moving them to a foster habitat (thus potentially destabilising the local eco-system). But to study them it would be second best to study them in a lab environment (best being to study them in their own environment). Studying them in another environment would introduce unpredictable environmental affects to the snail population.

It would seem that the intention was to study and catalogue the new species before they were wiped out, and not to "save" the snails, as that would involve introducing them to another environment, which would risk them possibly out-competing the native snails of their new habitat or even introducing snail pathogens to the foster habitat. In fact, I can't think of a single instance in which endangered species have been deliberately introduced to new habitats (other than by rich men for hunting).
 

stompie

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Thread starter #47
To be honest I don't have a care for mining companies. Destroy the environment, produce large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, try and dig up wildlife parks, steal resources from third world nations, when someone whines about the hardships billion dollar earning companies endure, I say, cry me a river.

But as MF said, they were biologists, not environmentalists. How would you like it if the building of a mine destroyed the last rare Sumatran tiger?

And you say that they acted corruptly to get a bribe, the mining company didn't bribe them, they simply (and rightly) covered the costs of the relocation, sine they want to dig there. The biologists didn't make or earn any money from this incident, so it's not corruption. It's just that they wanted to save a species from extinction. All the money went to the snails.

Lastly, you heard this story in a PUB from a mining expert (probably drunk and into his anti-greenies rant). Sorry if this story seems a little BS. Why don't you try and show some balance and try to investigate why these animals were saved?

All in all, another fail. Keep trying though.
There is no point trying to debate the merits of economic development to people who don't want to hear it, or highlight corruption to people who don't want to see it.

As for these snails, whether they have value or not is not an huge issue to me. Although there are plenty of snails like them, if people have fallen in love with this particular snail so much they want them forever to live in a fridge, I am happy to let them pursue their passion in turning them into fridge snails. However, I’ve always marked the character of a person by how much they are prepared to sacrifice to pursue their passion, and these snails lovers wanted everyone else to sacrifice, but not make any sacrifices themselves. So for me, they have no honour, and no true character. They are merely parasites.

It was interesting seeing New Zealand. It has gone further down the Green road than Australia, but is heading for a self correction. The mining engineer was leaving for America. His attitude was that New Zealand can head towards being a tourist economy like Fiji, Philippines etc and have the social security, education system, and funding for environmentalism to match. Companies just don’t want to invest when $400 million developments can be halted for some ordinary snails. Furthermore, 20 per cent of New Zealand's brightest minds live in other countries now as they've got jacked off as well. As the number of parasites become disproportional to the animal, then the collapse should bring things back into line.

At present, the only ones standing up to the Greenies are the Moari. It seems the Greenies want to be paid to eradicate the introduced animals from the Moari’s lands, and then the Moari, who love to hunt, are expected to devote their attention to making shell jewelery for the local crystal shop. As you can imagine, the Maori don’t take kindly to these outsiders coming in and telling them what they can and can’t do, and taking away their recreational activities. But once more of these mines are shut down, and more farmers are forced out of business, then the parasites are going to find conditions much tougher.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #48
At least you're calling them "biologists" now. But it depends on what their purpose is.

To keep the species in existence would have necessitated moving them to a foster habitat (thus potentially destabilising the local eco-system). But to study them it would be second best to study them in a lab environment (best being to study them in their own environment). Studying them in another environment would introduce unpredictable environmental affects to the snail population.

It would seem that the intention was to study and catalogue the new species before they were wiped out, and not to "save" the snails, as that would involve introducing them to another environment, which would risk them possibly out-competing the native snails of their new habitat or even introducing snail pathogens to the foster habitat. In fact, I can't think of a single instance in which endangered species have been deliberately introduced to new habitats (other than by rich men for hunting).
So essentially, the purpose was to create work for biologists.
 

MightyFighting

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#49
So essentially, the purpose was to create work for biologists.
And learn about these snails before they were wiped out.

But they, no doubt, already had enough work (probably too much work, considering they are scientists). To them, this would just be another sample, not a job in itself.


[I'm sure you already know that biology is a left wing conspiracy, just ask ItN.]
 

stompie

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Thread starter #50
And learn about these snails before they were wiped out.

But they, no doubt, already had enough work (probably too much work, considering they are scientists). To them, this would just be another sample, not a job in itself.


[I'm sure you already know that biology is a left wing conspiracy, just ask ItN.]
The snails are not very unique. Their shell markings are a little different. It might just be because it could be useful for camouflage in the local area. You could only know by studying them in their local area. A fridge just isn't going to give you those answers that you seek.

And then what use are the answers going to be? To sell books to snail lovers? A sell-out speaking tour for snail lovers?
 
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