Another Rabbit-proof Fence

Richo83

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#51
There is no point trying to debate the merits of economic development to people who don't want to hear it, or highlight corruption to people who don't want to see it.
Show me the corruption and I'll agree. As of now, you've shown me no proof that these biologists were corrupt and took bribes.

As for these snails, whether they have value or not is not an huge issue to me. Although there are plenty of snails like them, if people have fallen in love with this particular snail so much they want them forever to live in a fridge, I am happy to let them pursue their passion in turning them into fridge snails. However, I’ve always marked the character of a person by how much they are prepared to sacrifice to pursue their passion, and these snails lovers wanted everyone else to sacrifice, but not make any sacrifices themselves. So for me, they have no honour, and no true character. They are merely parasites.
It's not the issue of others sacrificing. It's the manner of trying to stop human interference in the environment. Have a look at how many species are dying each year because someone wants to make a buck out of iron ore. Let me ask you, when the scientists in Brazil try and save the rare species of the Amazon rain-forest from devisation caused by unnecessary clearing, do you expect the scientists to sacrifice anything to the loggers?

If you do, then you're more stupid than I give you credit for.

It was interesting seeing New Zealand. It has gone further down the Green road than Australia, but is heading for a self correction. The mining engineer was leaving for America. His attitude was that New Zealand can head towards being a tourist economy like Fiji, Philippines etc and have the social security, education system, and funding for environmentalism to match. Companies just don’t want to invest when $400 million developments can be halted for some ordinary snails. Furthermore, 20 per cent of New Zealand's brightest minds live in other countries now as they've got jacked off as well. As the number of parasites become disproportional to the animal, then the collapse should bring things back into line.
Don't tell me NZ developers fear developing because of some scientists, because I know, and you know that's just not true.

An increase of environmentalism in a nation is a positive move, not a negative. Start to realize this.

And Fiji and the Philippines are two nations that a western nation such as NZ should model itself on. Rather, it should model itself on successful nations such as Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, some of the wealthiest nations on earth, and not coincidently, nations with some of the highest developed environmental standards in the world.

And people leave NZ because there's better horizons to reach, not because of some scientists. Many of Australia's great minds are leaving, has the curse of the snail loving biologist reached Australia too? ;)

At present, the only ones standing up to the Greenies are the Moari. It seems the Greenies want to be paid to eradicate the introduced animals from the Moari’s lands, and then the Moari, who love to hunt, are expected to devote their attention to making shell jewelery for the local crystal shop. As you can imagine, the Maori don’t take kindly to these outsiders coming in and telling them what they can and can’t do, and taking away their recreational activities. But once more of these mines are shut down, and more farmers are forced out of business, then the parasites are going to find conditions much tougher.
Yes, because all MAORI people like to do is hunt things. Your perception on things is very simplistic, are you saying that all the MAORI people do is hunt or make shells? Come on.

As for introduced species, even the average joe knows that introduced pests, like a rabbit, which started this whole conversation destroy the native habitat by eating local flora and fauna. Introduced species like rabbits and foxes are a breed that no-one likes. If anything, the greenies are doing everyone a favour, especially as some farmers have had problems with foxes eating their cattle and rabbits eating their crops.

you say that the MAORI (I spell it in capitals, maybe you can learn to spell it rightly) don't like these outsiders coming in, what do you call all the white population of NZ who arrived on boat and took the land of the Maoris? It seems that the same group that wants to stop these greenies bothering the Maoris are the same people who want to deny the Maoris their cultural rights and ownership to the land.

And why would a farmer be shut down if a mine closed? How are they linked? Oh dammit, I can't send my sheep to collect the gemstones any more. ;)

More please stompie, this is like cannon fodder.
 

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midorigreenwood

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#52
Whenever someone disagrees with a lefty, they are a troll, however if a lefty disgrees with someone else, they are a free thinker?

Keep yourself in denial luv.
Oh, don't take my word for it ;)

You said it yourself

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6662047&postcount=124

I must confess though, exposing the ignorance of a lefty provides me with emotional gratification. It is like the intellectual equivalent of the gratification that I used to feel when putting on a great shepard in the footy, and seeing the other player in pain. Insulting people never changes their mind, you see that with all the insults levelled at Howard, but it is enjoyable nevertheless.
The confessions of a leftie baiting troll who likes showing off his typing skills >,>
 

MightyFighting

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#53
The snails are not very unique. Their shell markings are a little different. It might just be because it could be useful for camouflage in the local area. You could only know by studying them in their local area. A fridge just isn't going to give you those answers that you seek.
Whether they are a separate species, or a genetically different subset of a separate species is one of the things they would be studied to determine. That information can be determined in a lab ("fridge", if you will). In fact, that sort of information could only be determined in a lab.

Yes, there are many things that could only be determined on-site. But not everything.
And then what use are the answers going to be? To sell books to snail lovers? A sell-out speaking tour for snail lovers?
Pretty much. The findings would be published in a scientific journal. Data would be stored and samples preserved for other snail experts who might want them. And if there turns out to be something remarkable about these particular snails, they might even be invited to present their findings in a series of lectures.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #54
Whether they are a separate species, or a genetically different subset of a separate species is one of the things they would be studied to determine. That information can be determined in a lab ("fridge", if you will). In fact, that sort of information could only be determined in a lab.

Yes, there are many things that could only be determined on-site. But not everything.
Pretty much. The findings would be published in a scientific journal. Data would be stored and samples preserved for other snail experts who might want them. And if there turns out to be something remarkable about these particular snails, they might even be invited to present their findings in a series of lectures.
You would only need a few snails for genetic testing, not them all.

The fact is that none of the people who showed concern for the snails were prepared to make any sacrifices for their well being. None showed any interest in the area until a mining company wanted to mine there. Lastly, none were prepared to compromise their ideology about relocating the snails to a similar habitat. As a consequence, they sentenced the snail to extinction. (Opps sorry, they will live on in a scientific journal.)

Their ideology was really nothing more than an excuse to justify them staying in the nth Island, and the mining company paying them money.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #55
Oh, don't take my word for it ;)

You said it yourself

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6662047&postcount=124



The confessions of a leftie baiting troll who likes showing off his typing skills >,>
You like scrolling through my past posts as well. I'm flattered. Still, although I enjoy insulting people that I dislike, I initially dislike them because they are moronic wowsers. If they could type something intelligent I would have respect for them. I respect contra. He is one of the few on the left that has some brain cells. Smart person, and I'd suspect that he is one of the few lefties that has made some sacrifices for what he believes in.
 

Richo83

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#56
You would only need a few snails for genetic testing, not them all.
Maybe if you're a fool you don't. To receive an accurate test you need most of the species sample, especially with such a rare animal.

The fact is that none of the people who showed concern for the snails were prepared to make any sacrifices for their well being. None showed any interest in the area until a mining company wanted to mine there. Lastly, none were prepared to compromise their ideology about relocating the snails to a similar habitat. As a consequence, they sentenced the snail to extinction. (Opps sorry, they will live on in a scientific journal.)

Their ideology was really nothing more than an excuse to justify them staying in the nth Island, and the mining company paying them money.
Why should they make sacrifices? It's the mining companies that are intruding, not the biologists. Should biologists apologise for trying to save species? Hell no.

And they didn't show any interest because until then, their habitat wasn't being impeded on.

And lastly, you can't try and save an animal by putting it in the wrong habitat and screwing up another ecosystem.

I'd still like that infomation about how the mining companies gave the biologists money. They gave funding to help protect the snail population. Why is this so hard to understand?
 

stompie

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Thread starter #57
Maybe if you're a fool you don't. To receive an accurate test you need most of the species sample, especially with such a rare animal.



Why should they make sacrifices? It's the mining companies that are intruding, not the biologists. Should biologists apologise for trying to save species? Hell no.

And they didn't show any interest because until then, their habitat wasn't being impeded on.

And lastly, you can't try and save an animal by putting it in the wrong habitat and screwing up another ecosystem.

I'd still like that infomation about how the mining companies gave the biologists money. They gave funding to help protect the snail population. Why is this so hard to understand?
The biologists are not saving the snails. They are putting them in a fridge in the nth Island of New Zealand.
 

MightyFighting

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#58
You would only need a few snails for genetic testing, not them all.
I did not say that all they would do is genetic testing. I don't claim to know of all the things a biologist would do with a sample, and neither should you.
The fact is that none of the people who showed concern for the snails were prepared to make any sacrifices for their well being.
I've already explained to you that these snails are just one of many species that the biologists would be studying, and that they can't give up their jobs just so that the snails' new artificial environment can be closer to home.

Besides, once they've been removed from their native habitat and placed in an artificial environment, it doesn't matter whether they're moved to the next valley or to the other side of the world.
None showed any interest in the area until a mining company wanted to mine there.
Do you know how many different species of snails there would be in New Zealand alone? Most of them would not have been studied yet. The imminent extinction of this species meant that it's study them now or never.
Lastly, none were prepared to compromise their ideology about relocating the snails to a similar habitat. As a consequence, they sentenced the snail to extinction. (Opps sorry, they will live on in a scientific journal.)
It is not an ideology.

As I've already told you, deliberately introducing a new species to a habitat would be grossly irresponsible. The snails would have to compete with other species in their new environment for a particular ecological niche. Over time, they are likely to either die out within the new environment, or to out-compete (and endanger) a native species. Other risks include that snail diseases could be moved from the mining zone to the new habitat, or even that the snails themselves may be poisonous to unprepared local predators.

There is no way that the snails can be saved, unless (and this depends on the state of the mine) they can be re-introduced to the area after the mine is closed, but that would require putting them into some sort of fridge in the meantime (hmmm). You've stepped into the realm of farce when you blamed the biologists for the snail's extinction simply because they wouldn't upset another ecosystem just to save them.

Somebody had to pay for the snails to be collected and housed, so that they could be studied before it was no longer possible. The mine necessitated this, so by law, the mine pays for it.
 

stompie

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Thread starter #59
I did not say that all they would do is genetic testing. I don't claim to know of all the things a biologist would do with a sample, and neither should you.
I've already explained to you that these snails are just one of many species that the biologists would be studying, and that they can't give up their jobs just so that the snails' new artificial environment can be closer to home.

Besides, once they've been removed from their native habitat and placed in an artificial environment, it doesn't matter whether they're moved to the next valley or to the other side of the world.
Do you know how many different species of snails there would be in New Zealand alone? Most of them would not have been studied yet. The imminent extinction of this species meant that it's study them now or never.
It is not an ideology.

As I've already told you, deliberately introducing a new species to a habitat would be grossly irresponsible. The snails would have to compete with other species in their new environment for a particular ecological niche. Over time, they are likely to either die out within the new environment, or to out-compete (and endanger) a native species. Other risks include that snail diseases could be moved from the mining zone to the new habitat, or even that the snails themselves may be poisonous to unprepared local predators.

There is no way that the snails can be saved, unless (and this depends on the state of the mine) they can be re-introduced to the area after the mine is closed, but that would require putting them into some sort of fridge in the meantime (hmmm). You've stepped into the realm of farce when you blamed the biologists for the snail's extinction simply because they wouldn't upset another ecosystem just to save them.

Somebody had to pay for the snails to be collected and housed, so that they could be studied before it was no longer possible. The mine necessitated this, so by law, the mine pays for it.
You have confirmed my original point. The solution promoted by the environmentalists is the one that maximises their revenue, and minimises their inconvenience. It is not the solution that is the best interest of the species, or even in the best interests of science.

The solution in the best interests of the species would have been to simply relocate to the land adjoining the mind site. This is land the snails could have got to anyway if they had been diligent in their crawling, or been washed there in a rainstorm.

The solution in the best interests of science would have been for a biologist to study them in their habitat before it was lost. To use Richo’s Tiger example, are you going to learn the most about a Tiger by relocating it to a zoo and doing genetic testing on it, or seeing how it operates in the wild.

While the snail in its natural habitat, the biologist could use his or her own time to explore thousands of unexplored habitats in New Zealand, and that might have even more sub-species of snail with unusual shells. However, such exploration would need to be financed out of their own pocket, and require their own time. That option is unacceptable because, according to their ideology, everyone else should make sacrifices, but they never should as well.
 

bushie

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#60
You have confirmed my original point. The solution promoted by the environmentalists is the one that maximises their revenue, and minimises their inconvenience. It is not the solution that is the best interest of the species, or even in the best interests of science.

The solution in the best interests of the species would have been to simply relocate to the land adjoining the mind site. This is land the snails could have got to anyway if they had been diligent in their crawling, or been washed there in a rainstorm.

The solution in the best interests of science would have been for a biologist to study them in their habitat before it was lost. To use Richo’s Tiger example, are you going to learn the most about a Tiger by relocating it to a zoo and doing genetic testing on it, or seeing how it operates in the wild.

While the snail in its natural habitat, the biologist could use his or her own time to explore thousands of unexplored habitats in New Zealand, and that might have even more sub-species of snail with unusual shells. However, such exploration would need to be financed out of their own pocket, and require their own time. That option is unacceptable because, according to their ideology, everyone else should make sacrifices, but they never should as well.


ROFL

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

You never cease to amaze me with your complete lack of any thing that even remotely resembles reality.

Give it up.

Your trolling and just making yourself look stupid.
 

MightyFighting

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#61
You have confirmed my original point. The solution promoted by the environmentalists is the one that maximises their revenue, and minimises their inconvenience. It is not the solution that is the best interest of the species, or even in the best interests of science.

The solution in the best interests of the species would have been to simply relocate to the land adjoining the mind site.
I've told you twice now that that would be completely irresponsible. It would also be totally illegal. Please stop repeating this ridiculous suggestion.
This is land the snails could have got to anyway if they had been diligent in their crawling, or been washed there in a rainstorm.
If that were true, the snails would already have been there, and we wouldn't even be having this circular conversation.
The solution in the best interests of science would have been for a biologist to study them in their habitat before it was lost. To use Richo’s Tiger example, are you going to learn the most about a Tiger by relocating it to a zoo and doing genetic testing on it, or seeing how it operates in the wild.
That would be best. But you do realise that it would mean putting the mine on hold for 6 months while the biologists were at work? I would have thought that would be your least preferred option.

Besides, the genealogy, anatomy, physiology and neurology of the samples can only be studied in a lab. Many aspects of the behaviour of the snails could also be studied in the labs (and would by preference).
While the snail in its natural habitat, the biologist could use his or her own time to explore thousands of unexplored habitats in New Zealand, and that might have even more sub-species of snail with unusual shells. However, such exploration would need to be financed out of their own pocket, and require their own time. That option is unacceptable because, according to their ideology, everyone else should make sacrifices, but they never should as well.
That is not unacceptable, in fact it would what they mostly do.

However, this is not the issue. The issue is whether or not a mine should be able to extinguish a local species without paying the cost necessary for its partial preservation. The "sacrifice" that you would have the biologists make would not only mean leaving their institution just to tend snails (effectively ending their career), but it would also do the snails themselves no good at all. Do you think the snails know or care whether their lab is on the north island or the south island?

(I also see that you've gone back to calling the scientists "environmentalists".)
 

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stompie

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Thread starter #62
I've told you twice now that that would be completely irresponsible. It would also be totally illegal. Please stop repeating this ridiculous suggestion.
If that were true, the snails would already have been there, and we wouldn't even be having this circular conversation.
That would be best. But you do realise that it would mean putting the mine on hold for 6 months while the biologists were at work? I would have thought that would be your least preferred option.

Besides, the genealogy, anatomy, physiology and neurology of the samples can only be studied in a lab. Many aspects of the behaviour of the snails could also be studied in the labs (and would by preference).
That is not unacceptable, in fact it would what they mostly do.

However, this is not the issue. The issue is whether or not a mine should be able to extinguish a local species without paying the cost necessary for its partial preservation. The "sacrifice" that you would have the biologists make would not only mean leaving their institution just to tend snails (effectively ending their career), but it would also do the snails themselves no good at all. Do you think the snails know or care whether their lab is on the north island or the south island?

(I also see that you've gone back to calling the scientists "environmentalists".)
Relocation to surrounding land would only be illegal because environmentalists have denied that as an option. They denied it as an option because they want to profit.

The simple reason why the snails are not in adjoining land already is because they have no comparative advantage over the snails that are already there. These snails are not unique. They simply have slightly different shell markings.

You huff and puff does little in the way of disguising your ideology that maximises environmentalist revenue, minimizes their inconvenience, and comes at the expense of all others. If it hadn't been snails, it would have been a unique species of grass. When it comes to a mine, there is always something that environmentalists find, which then ensures the mine can't go ahead until some money has been paid.

Anyway, the environmentalists have their head firmly in the sand, and hostility towards them is growing in New Zealand. In this area, the entire community despises them - farmers, maori, miners, shop owners, publicans. When you have such an obvious case of profiteering, then it just adds more fuel to the fire. There is a self-correction looming. It has to come otherwise New Zealand will become another Solomon Islands or Fiji.

I'm calling them environmentalist because the snails were initially found some a woman on the dole that came down from Auckland to protest against mining in New Zealand. Furthermore, the justification to move them to a nth Island fridge had nothing to do with studying them. The organisation concerned simply said it would be "inappropriate" to send one of their staff members to the sth Island to care for/monitor/study etc. Maybe they are biologists, maybe they are not. All that is certain is that once they had an agreement from the mine to pay them $10,000,000, they stopped their opposition.
 

MightyFighting

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#63
You see, Stompie, this is why your view of the world is so warped that everything that is bad must be down to some incorrectly defined "left". All evidence must be interpreted in terms of left wing conspiracy and left wingers' self interest.

All evidence against this conspiracy you either ignore (by several times repeating your original assertions after I have rebutted them, making no mention of the rebuttals themselves), or you choose to see that as evidence of a far deeper, tricker conspiracy.

Even when you are told the very apolitical reasons why endangered species are not moved to foster habitats, and why scientists are not removed from their institutions, you choose to see those reasons themselves as aspects of a leftist plot.


You even go so far as to paint the scientists as leftist villains (by calling them "environmentalists", as I'm sure, in your world, environmentalism is purely an aspect of the left). The funny thing is that scientists in Australasia (unlike America) are not known for being particularly left wing.

They certainly don't get along with Green groups (particularly biologists).
 

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#64
You see, Stompie, this is why your view of the world is so warped that everything that is bad must be down to some incorrectly defined "left". All evidence must be interpreted in terms of left wing conspiracy and left wingers' self interest.

All evidence against this conspiracy you either ignore (by several times repeating your original assertions after I have rebutted them, making no mention of the rebuttals themselves), or you choose to see that as evidence of a far deeper, tricker conspiracy.

Even when you are told the very apolitical reasons why endangered species are not moved to foster habitats, and why scientists are not removed from their institutions, you choose to see those reasons themselves as aspects of a leftist plot.


You even go so far as to paint the scientists as leftist villains (by calling them "environmentalists", as I'm sure, in your world, environmentalism is purely an aspect of the left). The funny thing is that scientists in Australasia (unlike America) are not known for being particularly left wing.

They certainly don't get along with Green groups (particularly biologists).

Aint that the truth!! And I am a biologist.
 

Richo83

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#67
The biologists are not saving the snails. They are putting them in a fridge in the nth Island of New Zealand.
Ask me this question: why do you put things in the refrigerator? To preserve them ffs. Obviously they are keeping the snails there to preserve them to improve their chances of keeping the population levels up and keeping their life-expectancies consistent, so the snail population doesn't die.
 

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#72
Probably best summed as, the study into the eradication of introduced feral carnivores.
Ahh ok.

Not my cup of tea, as I have no joy killing animals myself. But what has to be done, has to be done (provided it is humane - my belief is that a humane kill should be provided to all feral or pest animals, not just the "cute" ones).
 

bushie

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#74
Ahh ok.

Not my cup of tea, as I have no joy killing animals myself. But what has to be done, has to be done (provided it is humane - my belief is that a humane kill should be provided to all feral or pest animals, not just the "cute" ones).

I can assure you Thrawn that it is humane.

Hence my reference to the ethics committees. They have an important imput to our work. But at times common sense is sadly lacking.

And as an animal lover, I could not partake in, or promote a research project that did not have the ethical and humane treatment of any animal as the main focus of its design.

Yes we kill many thousands of introduced feral predators, but none of us gain any satisfaction from the deaths. Frankly it saddens us to do it. Anyone who enjoys it is shown the door.

We balance our killing with the knowledge that we are helping to provide struggling and endangered native animals with a habitat that is free of introduced predators.
 

Thrawn

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#75
I can assure you Thrawn that it is humane.

Hence my reference to the ethics committees. They have an important imput to our work. But at times common sense is sadly lacking.

And as an animal lover, I could not partake in, or promote a research project that did not have the ethical and humane treatment of any animal as the main focus of its design.

Yes we kill many thousands of introduced feral predators, but none of us gain any satisfaction from the deaths. Frankly it saddens us to do it. Anyone who enjoys it is shown the door.

We balance our killing with the knowledge that we are helping to provide struggling and endangered native animals with a habitat that is free of introduced predators.
Fair enough. Great to see that morals aren't forgotten. :thumbsu:

I assume you support the ban of cruel devices such as glue traps for the purposes of 'population control' ? In fact Victoria's banning them. Seen what they can do, really nasty, no animal deserves to go through that. :(
 
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