Ask a Communist

[Taylor]

Yeh if I'm 85 and can't get off the couch i'll take the opioid overdose in a hospital. Saves the clean up when i fall, starve to death, and no one finds me for 6 weeks.

End of life care is one of the biggest profit makers in medicine, the solution of keeping you going for a few more days isn't a solution at all. We've gone into spiritual/philosophy stuff here though

We have, but it's worth discussing because the cracking of a few eggs is an often overlooked ugly reality of socialist policy. If the value of every life in a nation isn't worth saving then pretending to care about them is disingenuous. I think the system that offers to kill you to save money (one such case I have heard of was a person seeking funding to build a wheelchair ramp and the government asked if they had considered MAID instead) can't also pretend to care.

If humanity is to be functional cogs in a system and not of individual value at all then it makes sense, both extreme corporatism and socialism will discard the few to the benefit of the others, perhaps even the many to the benefit of the few.

But I prefer the utopia where humans are unique and worth trying to save.

If the future is instead that you work until you are no longer useful to the state where they kill you then I'd question the purpose of your life at all.

 

[barreness]

We have, but it's worth discussing because the cracking of a few eggs is an often overlooked ugly reality of socialist policy. If the value of every life in a nation isn't worth saving then pretending to care about them is disingenuous. I think the system that offers to kill you to save money (one such case I have heard of was a person seeking funding to build a wheelchair ramp and the government asked if they had considered MAID instead) can't also pretend to care.

Lack of funding to a public health service isn't an argument for privatisation. Comparing a system that actually funds wheelchairs to a system that send 100's of thousands of Americans bankrupt every year seems disingenuous.

Canada isn't a socialism by any stretch. You're anecdoting your way from euthanasia legislation to death camps by way of public health

If humanity is to be functional cogs in a system and not of individual value at all then it makes sense, both extreme corporatism(capitalism) and socialism will discard the few to the benefit of the others, perhaps even the many to the benefit of the few.

That's the gig.

But yeh generally it's better to minimise harm, hence socialism

But I prefer the utopia where humans are unique and worth trying to save.

I thought the commies were utopian, nah you and me aren't unique. Have you ever put down an animal? sometimes an end is the least painful option

If the future is instead that you work until you are no longer useful to the state where they kill you then I'd question the purpose of your life at all.

I mean all socialists states have pensions, as do most capitalist ones. Making a massive jump to suggest everyone is offed when they hit 65

 

[Malifice]

It, along with organised labour, are probably the two main reasons for the explosion of middle classes over the last couple of centuries. Capitalism lets you own the value of your labour. (To be spent/invested as you please) Communism takes your labour from you.

Which Marx was silent about.

As long as the middle classes continue to boom, they ain't gonna give up all their good s**t to go backwards under communism.

The battle has been fought and thankfully won. How people can still advocate for full blown socialism after the clear examples and failures of the USSR, Cambodia, North Korea, Venezuela, Vietnam, China etc just blows me away.

Particularly people born in Australia. Arguably noone has ever had it as good as we do at present.

 

[Taylor]

Lack of funding to a public health service isn't an argument for privatisation. Comparing a system that actually funds wheelchairs to a system that send 100's of thousands of Americans bankrupt every year seems disingenuous.

Canada isn't a socialism by any stretch. You're anecdoting your way from euthanasia legislation to death camps by way of public health

That's the gig.

But yeh generally it's better to minimise harm, hence socialism

I thought the commies were utopian, nah you and me aren't unique. Have you ever put down an animal? sometimes an end is the least painful option

I mean all socialists states have pensions, as do most capitalist ones. Making a massive jump to suggest everyone is offed when they hit 65

Just consider those last three things you wrote in a system where you can be told that life isn't worth living above 65 anyway, you're doing them a favour, they aren't contributing anyway, they are too rich. Whatever excuse you need.

I prefer not to introduce the concept of the state offering you death when you ask for a wheelchair ramp.

Every socialist system has decided that some people aren't worth keeping around when they are either too old or too rich and under the guise or doing minimal harm? Sickeningly evil.

But for their own interaction there would be no action causing harm.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Which Marx was silent about.

As long as the middle classes continue to boom, they ain't gonna give up all their good s**t to go backwards under communism.

The battle has been fought and thankfully won. How people can still advocate for full blown socialism after the clear examples and failures of the USSR, Cambodia, North Korea, Venezuela, Vietnam, China etc just blows me away.

Particularly people born in Australia. Arguably noone has ever had it as good as we do at present.

We could do better. A genuine mixed economy is the answer, not too much of communism, and certainly not to much of the other one where so much wealth is concentrated into such a tiny portion of the population.

Take this price gouging at the petrol pump. A Coles servo has a price of 1.80 per litre at one location and two suburbs over yet on the same main road it's 1.96 or 1.99. I've seen this sh*t. Governments don't want to give the ACCC teeth so Big Business won't retaliate. The top end of town keep theirs and the common folk get scalped.

The State should be bigger than any business entity, ready and willing to throw punches when Big Business is doing wrong by the populace. Interfering in the market when its warranted. Strangling the worst of capitalist greed with State-mandated regulation when the time comes.

Of course, going too far and creating an environment that is hostile to business owners does no good for the State economy and the populace either.

Balance is key.

 

[Jazny]

How do I buy cool things in communism?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Particularly people born in Australia. Arguably noone has ever had it as good as we do at present.

Sure, as long as you have money and a stable living situation. Every day, more and more people in Australia become homeless because they can't afford rent and certainly can't save enough to get a mortgage. The case for free markets and little government involvement in the market for scarce necessities like housing is poor.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Capitalism lets you own the value of your labour. (To be spent/invested as you please) Communism takes your labour from you.

No, capitalism lets you own a small part of the value of your labour, whereas most of it goes to the business owner/shareholders. Unless you are the owner or a major shareholder in the business you work in, in which case you own the value of your own labour and most of the value of other people's labour.

To me a better system is the cooperative model of ownership, where all employees have equal ownership of the business, and share in the profits and losses together. That's much closer to everyone owning the value of their own labour.

 

[Jazny]

No, capitalism lets you own a small part of the value of your labour, whereas most of it goes to the business owner/shareholders. Unless you are the owner or a major shareholder in the business you work in, in which case you own the value of your own labour and most of the value of other people's labour.

To me a better system is the cooperative model of ownership, where all employees have equal ownership of the business, and share in the profits and losses together. That's much closer to everyone owning the value of their own labour.

Sounds totally awful, but couldn't people just make that business model if they wanted?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Sounds totally awful, but couldn't people just make that business model if they wanted?

They do in some places, like Spain. But if it's in a mature industry, it's very hard to get the capital to compete with a limited liability company with shareholders.

 

[Malifice]

Sure, as long as you have money and a stable living situation.

If you don't have either, we have free Healthcare, JSA (and DSP), rent assistance (or social housing), Legal aid, HECS for University, and other services. There is a welfare safety net.

2/3 of Aussies own their own homes.

And there is this:

The new mean wealth of Australian adults is $778,353 (US$496,820), placing us fourth behind Switzerland (first, at US$685,230), the United States (second, at US$551,350), Hong Kong (third, at US$551,190). In terms of median wealth per adult, Australia ranks second behind Belgium, at $386,973 (US$247,450). Median wealth is still down nearly US$10,000 compared to 2021.

The average Aussies' net-worth revealed.

 

[Hoops]

If you don't have either, we have free Healthcare, JSA (and DSP), rent assistance (or social housing), Legal aid, HECS for University, and other services. There is a welfare safety net.

2/3 of Aussies own their own homes.

And there is this:



The average Aussies' net-worth revealed.

Median wealth is less than half of mean wealth which shows the vast bulk of wealth is still too concentrated in the hands of a minority

 

[Malifice]

Median wealth is less than half of mean wealth which shows the vast bulk of wealth is still too concentrated in the hands of a minority

No, that doesn't necessarily show that at all because at the bottom end, people in poverty have nothing.

There is still income disparity of course; some people earn more than others. Significantly more in many cases. But in the middle people are doing pretty damn good.

And even at the bottom, you get 750 dollars a fortnight on Jobseeker allowance in Australia, plus an extra 180 dollars a fortnight for Rent assistance. 500 odd dollars a week is the lowest anyone can go, without working a single hour. You have free Healthcare, and the ability to upskill, retaining at least the above basic income (via Centrelink) while you get your Uni degree or TAFE trade.

If you're disabled and cant work, then DSP pays more than JSA, and you have the NDIS as well to fall back on.

There is no reason a person fit and able to work in Australia doesn't have a job other than s**t personal choices. For example, here in WA they're screaming out for drillers in the mines. No qualifications other than a car license needed, and pay is six figures.

When I was young and unemployed, I enlisted in the Army. They're also screaming out for people.

People chime in and say 'but I don't want to work in the mines' or 'I don't want to join the military' or 'I don't want to move' or 'I don't want to do that'. That's fine, but don't sook about other people who are prepared to work hard and make personal sacrifices, when they have money and you don't. You're making a choice, and your choice has consequences. It's yours to make though, which is ethically the right way to go about it.

We have a social security net to alleviate poverty. Beyond that, its your own choices that determine what you do, and where you end up, which is exactly how things should be.

 

[barreness]

No, that doesn't necessarily show that at all because at the bottom end, people in poverty have nothing.

It's stops at zero though(bar any loans), infinite on the other end. The large gap between median and mean is very informative about wealth inequality

There is still income disparity of course; some people earn more than others. Significantly more in many cases. But in the middle people are doing pretty damn good.

That middle doing pretty darn good tends to get smaller by the year. Bank balances at the top end tend to grow by the year

And even at the bottom, you get 750 dollars a fortnight on Jobseeker allowance in Australia, plus an extra 180 dollars a fortnight for Rent assistance.

Rent assistance is a sliding scale depending on what you pay, to get the full 180 you need to be paying 400 ish, makes for some interesting calculations. You do have a point here though, pretty outdated in todays rent market 200 a week for a share room has you almost hot bunking in a capital city

Rough calculation from perth, ok sharehouse $600-180 per fortnight, 750-420=330. So $165 per week/ to cover everything bar rent. Sure rice and beans are ok but goodluck maintaining a car or clothing yourself for that interview. $25 dollars a day is lucky to buy 2 pints

500 odd dollars a week is the lowest anyone can go, without working a single hour. You have free Healthcare, and the ability to upskill, retaining at least the above basic income (via Centrelink) while you get your Uni degree or TAFE trade.

Think it's been a while since you've been on jobkeeper, approval time has blown out to 2/3 months and 'job providers' are growing ever more authoritarian. Applying for jobs isn't enough, some want you to sit through a 9-5 zoom meeting for your points(of the most braindead rubbish too). Privatisation has led to a system so poor that its easier to take any work than try to live off a system you as a tax payer funds.

You can still walk into an ER and eventually you'll get seen but try going to a GP or heaven forbid a specialist without a 3 figure bill at best.

Lol at youth allowance covering anything bar ramen and a weekly tuna can, find me someone at uni that isn't working and i'll show you a trust fund baby. They'll still go after you for robo debt though

If you're disabled and cant work, then DSP pays more than JSA, and you have the NDIS as well to fall back on.

If you can work through the paper work

There is no reason a person fit and able to work in Australia doesn't have a job other than s**t personal choices. For example, here in WA they're screaming out for drillers in the mines. No qualifications other than a car license needed, and pay is six figures.

Drivers license is a very costly qualification

When I was young and unemployed, I enlisted in the Army. They're also screaming out for people.

Few ethical concerns from joining the killing machine, particularly in a environment of growing international hostility. Having said that I did my time in the chicken slaughterhouse so I've probs got more lives on my book

People chime in and say 'but I don't want to work in the mines' or 'I don't want to join the military' or 'I don't want to move' or 'I don't want to do that'. That's fine, but don't sook about other people who are prepared to work hard and make personal sacrifices, when they have money and you don't. You're making a choice, and your choice has consequences. It's yours to make though, which is ethically the right way to go about it.

Yeh yeh, your entire post is basically bootstraps will fix it. Not much sooking about the people willing to work dirty jobs from me, just a look at the material conditions that drive them to it, the implication of the system you know

We have a social security net to alleviate poverty. Beyond that, its your own choices that determine what you do, and where you end up, which is exactly how things should be.

I think covid rules around jobseeker etc was an interesting case study, doubled it overnight and approved everyone within a few days, actually alleviated poverty. This took the bottom out of the labour market and every buisness paying minimums or worse was crying out to the govt.
Our system isn't designed to alleviate poverty, it's designed to make being poor harder than working
Neoliberal capitalism requires an 'natural' unemployment rate near 5% to stifle wages, wage-price spiral apparently gives them nightmares.

You're getting a bit thatcher-"theres no such thing as society" here

 

[Malifice]

Rough calculation from perth, ok sharehouse $600-180 per fortnight, 750-420=330. So $165 per week/ to cover everything bar rent. Sure rice and beans are ok but goodluck maintaining a car or clothing yourself for that interview. $25 dollars a day is lucky to buy 2 pints

You're not supposed to be buying pints. You're supposed to be working.

You have enough money for food, rent and the odd bus ticket. If you want more than that, work.

Think it's been a while since you've been on jobkeeper,

When I was last on benefits it was AUSTUDY and it was less than 400 dollars a fortnight, and we didnt get rent assistance back then. That was the early naughties (03 to 07) at Uni.

In Perth, during the first housing boom.

I worked three jobs (in addition to studying a Law degree full time) including the Army reserve, night fill at a Coles and a cash in hand Pizza delivery job. For significant periods, I was reliant on AUSTUDY as my only income.

You can make it work.

Most people I see bitching these days are doing so on their brand-new Smartphone, with half a dozen streaming services, plus a computer and tablet at home, etc.

approval time has blown out to 2/3 months and 'job providers' are growing ever more authoritarian. Applying for jobs isn't enough, some want you to sit through a 9-5 zoom meeting for your points(of the most braindead rubbish too). Privatisation has led to a system so poor that its easier to take any work than try to live off a system you as a tax payer funds.

What crap. You can literally get a job today if you want one. McDonalds, or stacking shelves at a Supermarket, or six figures on the mines, or join the Army.

And before you go all 'buuut' I did two of those things.

I tell people to harden up and show some personal responsibility and stop asking for the other people that are working shitty jobs to support their lack of it.

Lol at youth allowance covering anything bar ramen and a weekly tuna can, find me someone at uni that isn't working

There are plenty. I was one of them for significant periods of time, and I'm a smoker.

150 bucks of my 375 went on rent (share house with 4 people, 20 years ago). Left me with 100 bucks a week or so to live on.

Most of that went on tobacco. The rest on 2-minute noodles, free Pizzas from the housemate who'd bring them home from his Pizza delivery job, 1 dollar pasta meals, and vegemite sandwiches. For nights out, you'd neck a few bottles of Passion pop, or a bag of goon.

Not exactly a life of luxury but you made it work.

Our system isn't designed to alleviate poverty, it's designed to make being poor harder than working

It does both. It alleviates crime as well (without welfare, s**t would be crazy).

You're not supposed to live forever on AUSTUDY or JSA etc. Both allow you to work at the same time and still get some benefits.

'Get a damn job'. Show personal responsibility, not sit around and wait for State handouts.

 

[barreness]

You're not supposed to be buying pints. You're supposed to be working.

Unaustralian

You have enough money for food, rent and the odd bus ticket. If you want more than that, work.

Yeh they don't have enough for that now, that's my argument

When I was last on benefits it was AUSTUDY and it was less than 400 dollars a fortnight, and we didnt get rent assistance back then. That was the early naughties (03 to 07) at Uni.

Yeh, it's still 400 a fortnight

In Perth, during the first housing boom.

I worked three jobs (in addition to studying a Law degree full time) including the Army reserve, night fill at a Coles and a cash in hand Pizza delivery job. For significant periods, I was reliant on AUSTUDY as my only income.

You can make it work.

I'm not saying you can't, you and I obviously did. It's a poor system getting worse
IGA master race but

Most people I see bitching these days are doing so on their brand-new Smartphone, with half a dozen streaming services, plus a computer and tablet at home, etc.

Need a smartphone and internet to get or keep work(or a centrelink claim), this is back in my day python sketch. Anyone with half a brain pirates rather than pays streamers

What crap. You can literally get a job today if you want one. McDonalds, or stacking shelves at a Supermarket, or six figures on the mines, or join the Army.

And before you go all 'buuut' I did two of those things.

I tell people to harden up and show some personal responsibility and stop asking for the other people that are working shitty jobs to support their lack of it.

I don't think anyone is asking workers to support workless, that's not how govt expenditure works. The system requires 5% unemployment, if that is the system then it shouldn't be persecuting broke campaigners

There are plenty. I was one of them for significant periods of time, and I'm a smoker.

150 bucks of my 375 went on rent (share house with 4 people, 20 years ago). Left me with 100 bucks a week or so to live on.

So you were paying $75 a week? people are paying $300 for an average room atm. Check out realestate.com, rent is insane. Welfare system has got more difficult and inflation recently has pushed the poors to the wall

Most of that went on tobacco. The rest on 2-minute noodles, free Pizzas from the housemate who'd bring them home from his Pizza delivery job, 1 dollar pasta meals, and vegemite sandwiches. For nights out, you'd neck a few bottles of Passion pop, or a bag of goon.

The glory days of $15 50g winnie blues, they're now like $90ish(I quit a few years back). Goon is still reasonable

Not exactly a life of luxury but you made it work.



It does both. It alleviates crime as well (without welfare, s**t would be crazy).

Agreed, Crime is largely a reflection of material conditions, so improve the conditions

You're not supposed to live forever on AUSTUDY or JSA etc. Both allow you to work at the same time and still get some benefits.

Not forever, but you are supposed to live for the time being.
Just on this, work tapers the benefits and they hunt you, when I was at uni I got robo'd because a few extra hours over Christmas at nightfill meant I now owed them 3k, don't worry though about 30 hours on the phone and 3 weeks of couch surfing got my youth allowance reinstated. Got my big old cheque for $53 in the mail last year

'Get a damn job'. Show personal responsibility, not sit around and wait for State handouts.

Yes to all, so why not have an economic system that guarantees employment. No ones telling a communist to get a job, they're given jobs. You were getting all high and mighty about not liking, but doing, a particular gig earlier so don't come all authoritarian whinge with me here

 

[barreness]

Scrap that $145 for a 50g winnie blue pouch at coles, jesus no wonder i quit

 

[Malifice]

Yeh they don't have enough for that now, that's my argument

Here is a 4-bedroom house in Joondana (a few minutes out of Perth) for 650 bucks a week.

https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-wa-joondanna-438518492

With three roommates, your rental obligation is a shade over 300 dollars a fortnight on this sucker. Half of which is paid by rent assistance. The other 150 you pay yourself.

After paying rent, you have 300 dollars a week left over to live.

For food, a packet or two of Black and Gold oatmeal lasts you all week, and that's your breakfasts. With a carton of milk each week that's 10 bucks a week. Two loaves of bread and a tub of marge and vegemite each week is your lunches. That's another 20 bucks a week. For dinner, get used to 2-dollar pasta meals, mi-goreng noodles, pasta and mince, and 5-dollar Domino pizzas. That's 35 bucks a week for dinner.

I hope you dont mind carbs, but that's pretty much my diet for 5 years of Uni, so dont say it cant be done for the average Joe.

65 dollars for food each week. Toss in another 35 bucks for coffee, the odd treat, and something healthy once in a while. Another 50 goes on dunny paper, toothpaste and eating out once a week misc.

Your rent is paid, and you're eating 3 meals a day. You still have 150 dollars (each week) left over for bills (shared with 3 other people) and odds and ends.

You put aside 25 dollars each week for bills (100 dollars a week with your fellow 3 roommates) for gas and electricity.

Your phone is on a data plan only for 15 bucks a week (that you hotspot for internet at home), and an older model refurbed iPhoneX that you picked up for 300 bucks and own outright.

Youre not on a home data plan (no need) you dont have any streaming services (using Utorrent for everything), and you own a shitty bicycle to get around town (which is a 10 minute ride away), or you walk, or you take the bus.

No fuel, rego or car costs.

Everything is paid up, and you still have 100-150 bucks left over, each week, for whatever the * you want, and you even have enough money left over (after bills etc) for a few nights out a week (just neck two bottles of Passion pop before you head out, and then you only need a few beers to maintain the rage).

So people do have enough now.

Are you living the good life? No you're slumming it. It's how I lived during Uni, so I know its doable and not just theoretical.