Review Autopsy vs Hawthorn

[Morris Major]

As predicted, Dickson will always be one bad game away from being a whipping boy.

+1.

All we did was kick it long to the pack at the top of the square. What's Dickson to do? Both him and Crameri got a lot more involved up the ground and on the wing in the second half, a testament to their work rate if anything.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I thought Dickson's intensity was superb. Did well up the ground. Happy with his game.

 

[immortalmike]

Oh for ****'s sake.

As I said in my first post that you quoted, you do not have all the facts at your disposal. That you haven't seen them doesn't make them incorrect. That you have been told that they exist, yet continue to pretend that they don't (even when Dannnnnnnnnn corroborated my source) makes you stubborn at best and I could think of other more colourful adjectives.

Campbell is good at ruck craft, and by the numbers he is elite.

Given that Will gives us very little as a marking target around the ground, Campbell actually isn't that far away from what we currently get from Will.

I'm a big fan of big TC but that just even remotely true. If he is to even give us a close facsimile of what Wil provides, he has to also add an elite clearance and tackling side to his game and play with some aggression. I've seen this very minimally in Tom's game.

 

[fronkalicious]

Closest I can think of was Peter Street, who was on our list for 5 years.
He didn't cost us a first round pick though.

Pick 20, which is a first rounder in this day and age.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Except I'm not claiming anything to be incorrect, that's just strawman on your part, likely due to anger. All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced.

You twice refuted my posts based on a perceived lack of evidence, and now that your position looks silly are claiming that you didn't.

Again, shallow statement.

You then called my factually supported post a shallow statement. I know where I will file your opinion.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

+1.

All we did was kick it long to the pack at the top of the square. What's Dickson to do? Both him and Crameri got a lot more involved up the ground and on the wing in the second half, a testament to their work rate if anything.

I thought Dickson's intensity was superb. Did well up the ground. Happy with his game.

Agree with both of these. Even the most ardent Dickson hater must be happy with what he's bringing to the table so far this season

 

[wingman09]

cordy needs to be shipped off asap..

jong is great love how he goes about it.

just play big jack as the #2 ruck he does alright in there

 

[Doggies_13]

Neither do you. Don't let that stop your arbitrary anger though.


Except I'm not claiming anything to be incorrect, that's just strawman on your part, likely due to anger. All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced.


Again, shallow statement. From the statistics and footage I've seen, he's nowhere near the level of a Minson/McEvoy/Sandilands, which he should be if he's to be our premiership ruckman. I'm not saying he can't get to that level, but we shouldn't just assume he'll be good enough.

The fact you put McEvoy in the same group as Minson and Sandilands shows a lack of knowledge in football

 

[Dogs Rule]

cordy needs to be shipped off asap..

jong is great love how he goes about it.

just play big jack as the #2 ruck he does alright in there

Jack has a physical presence, Ayce is about as intimidating as a snowflake.

 

[yebiga]

My point is Tom Campbell hasn't shown enough at AFL Level to suggest he's a certainty to take over the #1 ruck role. I still like him, I think he should be ahead of Cordy right now, but we shouldn't discard Cordy on the back of two bad games considering our lack of future ruck options.

Cordy will never make it
What he offers can be readily found at district level
There is no one in the history of the game with his gait and movement who has made it as a ruck man

His inability to mark above his head disqualifies him as a forward
And his lack of strength simply makes it impossible

Time to move on - there is nothing to look for here

 

[doggies ftw]

I dont get why so many people are against putting Boyd in the ruck. He is a very good tap ruckman and obviously has the height and strength. Long term yes I wan't a different 2nd ruckman in the team so we can leave Boyd forward where he is most dangerous but lets be honest its not going to be Cordy so lets not waste time on him. If we did want Boyd to be our 2nd ruckman in the long term (again, I don't) well I reckon he has the potential to be as good in the middle as any forward/ruckman in the league. Not only that it gets him into the game and up around the ball which has helped him out enormously over the last few weeks, its also bringing his fitness up to scratch quicker than if he stayed forward all game. I can see the argument that you don't want him to injure himself in the ruck well lets be honest he's just as likely to do it up front, we cannot wrap the kid in cotton wool. Shit happens, he will be fine.

Not to mention he would be sharing the ruckwork with Redpath, who is okay in his own right. No he doesn't win too many hitouts but he competes well and his follow up work at ground level is good, he will at least make his weight felt around the contest. For the people whose only argument is "yes Cordy is shit but he provides the structure" well yesterday we got 6 hit outs from Cordy. In round 1 with both Boyd and Redpath we got 5. I've got just as much confidence in those two doing the same amount of work in the middle as Cordy and doing just as good if not probably better as the year goes on. We also don't lose anything structure wise when one goes into the middle as all 3 of Boyd, Redpath, Stringer can all play deep or up the ground. So Boyd moves to the ruck either move Stringer one out deep where he thrives, or push him up the ground at CHF and put Redpath deep and so on. It also keeps Minson either on the bench or in the ruck which is where we want him. If we're playing Cordy you have to put him in the ruck quite a bit because he's so ****ing useless anywhere else and just wasting a spot, meaning Minson has to spend time up forward and lets face it we don't want that. Minno is quite capable of doing the majority of the work and running out the game/season fine. Boyd/Redpath are quite capable of giving him enough back up to allow that.

 

[Yojimbo]

I am sure Ayce Cordy never picked himself in the seniors
for a game! Like it or not this is a transition year with a
new coach who deserves a chance to view the players
output and then make a choice whether to flush the
toilet so to speak.

What would be an acceptable game for Ayce 20 touches
3 goals, 6 marks ? Jonathon Ceglar from Hawthorn looks
good to me yet finds himself at his third AFL club at the
tender age of 24.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Whatever evidence you think you presented failed to convince me. As of right now, there is absolutely nothing you've presented that emphatically proves Tom Campbell is a certainty to become a quality #1 ruckman in the AFL. Try a bit harder next time.

That's because I never set out to "emphatically proves Tom Campbell is a certainty to become a quality #1 ruckman in the AFL". I said:

Campbell has elite hitout to advantage numbers at AFL level.

You refuted my post.

The source of those numbers is Champion Data, I presume you've heard of them. They run all the statistics for the AFL and have done so for many years now.

How is what you said fact? Even if you highlighted the statistics, there's always a degree of subjectivity in judging whether they're elite or not.

Campbell's hitouts to advantage statistics are a fact. They have been published in the prospectus.
Their interpretation as elite is made by Champion Data, not me. Their definition of elite is statistically within the top 5% of players in the AFL. Works for me.

Again with the obnoxious, superficial posts.

Your ability to refute others has already been shown. Yet when further discussion presents the detail as to why you were incorrect to refute, you resorted to either claiming that you didn't refute or calling the argument superficial/shallow/obnoxious.

All that does is come across as a concession in the debate.

Consider me done with this board. I've had enough with obnoxious dickheads like yourself, who prefer to nitpick insignificant remarks, rather than properly address my argument.

This is a discussion forum. If you expect to be able to refute others without a right of reply, that would at best be naive.

 

[Royale]

I think we need to establish at a baseline whether we think Minno can singularly ruck with Toyd/Redpath/Roughy pinch hitting.

Clearly Bevo doesn't think he should with Cordy getting picked twice now.

On exposed form, Cordy doesn't get enough of the ball and does not provide the type of ruck relief we need.

6 HO's vs Hawks and only 4 HO's vs Richmond. He needs to go back to the VFL. I would go with Campbell if Bevo thinks we need a proper second ruck option.

Against Jacobs / Jenkins we simply can't give up that much of an advantage.

Taking a long term view, we need to find out how long Minno intends to play. The only decent ruckmen I like are older (27+) or injury prone or both. Minno is 30 and maybe has 2 - 3 years left MAX at the top level.

Cordy / Campbell are our other options at the moment. I haven't put a line through either...yet, but now is the time to show something. If either dont we should be looking elsewhere.

Now there's a lot of ruckmen, solid ruckmen not getting games.

Jon Griffin would be perfect, if only he were 5 years younger. Currently not getting games, too old to come to us, and behind Sandi, Clarke and now Hannath whom is younger. He is a seriously good ruckmen though. Shame.

I think we should be looking at one of Lycett (22) or Sinclair (25). Which ever we can get as both are fighting each other for that 2nd ruck spot behind Nic Nat. Either would be gettable I think.

Matthew Leuenberger (26) - Recently dropped against Richmond in favor of Stef Martin and a debutant in Harris Andrews. Not sure how his year will pan out but if he continues to be on the outer we should be looking at him. Coming back from an ACL last year too so could cheapen whatever we need to give up.

Trent West (27), played well for Brisbane when Leuenberger went down last year. Had very good HO numbers and a decent number of possessions before also suffering an ACL last year.

Jonathon Giles (27) I like him, combative and has shown he can do the job. Not sure how long his contract is at Essendon but definitely one i'd consider.

 

[_Mike_]

*Mod note

lets stop with the insults over opinions please...

 

[Growlin woof]

Didn't get to see the game, but thanks to the comments on here I understand Cordy seem to have a good game

glad to hear is he coming on well

 

[cammo78]

Agree with both of these. Even the most ardent Dickson hater must be happy with what he's bringing to the table so far this season

Yep. Always been on Dicko's side but he's now added strings to his bow rather than simply being a forward line goalkicker. His workrate is just outstanding.

He is best 22 at our club, no doubt in my mind.

 

[Libba39]

Jack has a physical presence, Ayce is about as intimidating as a snowflake.

How about...an evil snowflake....?

 

[Beasley]

Redpath Campbell and Robets would all offer more than Cordy

Even the goal post got more touches than Cordy the past two weeks.

 

[Beasley]

*Mod note

lets stop with the insults over opinions please...

Its Cordy's fault Mike ...... he's really annoyed the crap out of posters this time!

 

[Dazb86]

Its Cordy's fault Mike ...... he's really annoyed the crap out of posters this time!

He definitely provides less comedic value than Peter Street.

 

[_Mike_]

Turning this to a positive, I'm surprised how Jong is progressing this year so far.. Seems like he's put in a solid preseason as his work rate is much better

 

[Some Idiot]

Happiness/satisfaction depends on expectation

Expect nothing and forever be happy. If only life were so simple.

 

[Some Idiot]

There was nothing wrong with Hodge's bump on Honeychurch, I don't see what the issue would be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well it was late, so should have been a downfield free kick. Not report.

I thought Dickson's intensity was superb. Did well up the ground. Happy with his game.

His defensive running has been very good, ditto Jarrad Grant. Happy to play have those willing to work hard in the team.

(Grant did look a little tentative at a couple of contests, not sure whether to go or leave it for a team mate or wait for an opponent to pick it up and lay a tackle, but happy to persist, he's clearly working hard)

 

[Doggy Dan]

I dont get why so many people are against putting Boyd in the ruck. He is a very good tap ruckman and obviously has the height and strength. Long term yes I wan't a different 2nd ruckman in the team so we can leave Boyd forward where he is most dangerous but lets be honest its not going to be Cordy so lets not waste time on him. If we did want Boyd to be our 2nd ruckman in the long term (again, I don't) well I reckon he has the potential to be as good in the middle as any forward/ruckman in the league. Not only that it gets him into the game and up around the ball which has helped him out enormously over the last few weeks, its also bringing his fitness up to scratch quicker than if he stayed forward all game. I can see the argument that you don't want him to injure himself in the ruck well lets be honest he's just as likely to do it up front, we cannot wrap the kid in cotton wool. Shit happens, he will be fine.

Not to mention he would be sharing the ruckwork with Redpath, who is okay in his own right. No he doesn't win too many hitouts but he competes well and his follow up work at ground level is good, he will at least make his weight felt around the contest. For the people whose only argument is "yes Cordy is shit but he provides the structure" well yesterday we got 6 hit outs from Cordy. In round 1 with both Boyd and Redpath we got 5. I've got just as much confidence in those two doing the same amount of work in the middle as Cordy and doing just as good if not probably better as the year goes on. We also don't lose anything structure wise when one goes into the middle as all 3 of Boyd, Redpath, Stringer can all play deep or up the ground. So Boyd moves to the ruck either move Stringer one out deep where he thrives, or push him up the ground at CHF and put Redpath deep and so on. It also keeps Minson either on the bench or in the ruck which is where we want him. If we're playing Cordy you have to put him in the ruck quite a bit because he's so ******* useless anywhere else and just wasting a spot, meaning Minson has to spend time up forward and lets face it we don't want that. Minno is quite capable of doing the majority of the work and running out the game/season fine. Boyd/Redpath are quite capable of giving him enough back up to allow that.

My issue is that we are gassing him and it is making him a much less effective lead up forward. It is not about injuries for me. But those 5 minute stints in the ruck, are meaning he is basically plodding the match out in a (Bevo's word) dour fashion. I want to see him have a chance to rest then explode when the ball is pushed forward.