Ayres

[PAfolwr]

When he was recruited, it seems as if he was given a "job", and that was to try and win the premiership with largely the list the Crows had by patching it up here and there, even though the year before was not a very good one. Crows supporters expectations at times seem to have been (notice past tense) a bit ... well... shall we say unrealistic.
Even though he failed at winning the big one, one can say he has done well in that regard, as apart from Crows fans, not many others thought the list was that good, and the end results achieved have been fairly high.
In order to do that, recruiting has been a bit kind of short sighted.

It now appears that he (and most likely others within the establishment) have finally bitten the bullet, and started recruiting with an eye to the future, and adjusting game plans and the like. That will take time.

Now comes the question (tadaa!!)

1. How successful has he been with the Crows wrt ladder positions given the list he had, and

2. What does he have to show this year so that he will be "guaranteed" a longish term contract with a bit of latitude and freedom to seriously try and build a team that will be good for a while, even though short term there may be a bit of pain. Although I cannot see that being quite the Freo or St Kilda type pain given your players.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by PAfolwr
1. How successful has he been with the Crows wrt ladder positions given the list he had

He's had some good results but without a premiership it can't be said to have been "successful".

2. What does he have to show this year so that he will be "guaranteed" a longish term contract with a bit of latitude and freedom to seriously try and build a team that will be good for a while, even though short term there may be a bit of pain. Although I cannot see that being quite the Freo or St Kilda type pain given your players.

The 2004 AFL premiership.

Only premiership coaches deserve to be long term coaches.

 

[PAfolwr]

Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by DaveW
He's had some good results but without a premiership it can't be said to have been "successful".

The 2004 AFL premiership.

Only premiership coaches deserve to be long term coaches.

And what will your expectations be if/when a new coach takes over?

 

[DaveW]

Re: Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by PAfolwr
And what will your expectations be if/when a new coach takes over?

Same as what I expect/expected of Ayres.

1. I expect continual improvement in the first term of the contract.

Which is exactly what Ayres gave us.

1999: 13th (Blight's last year)
2000: 11th
2001: 8th
2002: 4th

He oversaw some good player development & improvement to supplement the good senior core. Stevens becoming a top KPP, Burton improved, Goodwin became AA, Johnson, Edwards became top shelf, Biglands stepped up, McGregor now our best KPP, etc...

The new coach may have a tougher task though, as the senior core he inherits wont nearly be as good as the one in 1999 - Bickley/Smart/Hart/Ricciuto/McLeod.


2. A premiership in the second term of the contract, or at least signs that we're getting closer

And that's where Ayres has failed. We've dropped away from the high of 2002. And our list looks more stale than ever.

 

[PAfolwr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by DaveW
Same as what I expect/expected of Ayres.

1. I expect continual improvement in the first term of the contract.

Which is exactly what Ayres gave us.

1999: 13th (Blight's last year)
2000: 11th
2001: 8th
2002: 4th

He oversaw some good player development & improvement to supplement the good senior core. Stevens becoming a top KPP, Burton improved, Goodwin became AA, Johnson, Edwards became top shelf, Biglands stepped up, McGregor now our best KPP, etc...

The new coach may have a tougher task though, as the senior core he inherits wont nearly be as good as the one in 1999 - Bickley/Smart/Hart/Ricciuto/McLeod.


2. A premiership in the second term of the contract, or at least signs that we're getting closer

And that's where Ayres has failed. We've dropped away from the high of 2002. And our list looks more stale than ever.

2000 11th
2001. Elimination final
2002. Preliminary final
2003. Semi final (and possibly end of run with inherited crop).

My first question I suppose was, was it his fault that he didn't seem to recruit for the future early on, or was that what he was employed to just that and unrealistically so, as Bickley/Smart/Hart/Ricciuto/McLeod is good, but not that good really. Yes I know about Johnson etc, but lack of a key forward or two will always bite.

Was it the coach, or the Club that caused the direction that was taken wrt recruiting?

If it was the Club, or even 50-50, what are the signs that need to be shown for Ayres to stay on?

I suppose if I was a Crow supporter, I would have been ****ed off at the beginning of last year, even though the season started off well, but quite happy so far this year, as last year the car was veering off the road, whereas it now appears to be heading back towards that road in many respects.

 

[Jars458]

He has been as sucesful as Mark Williams

 

[cwood_rules]

i think were seeing a repeat of Robert Shaw......
and the recruiting is ****.....get rid of ayres and bring back MALCOLM BLIGHT DAMMIT!!!

 

[PAfolwr]

Originally posted by Jars458
He has been as sucesful as Mark Williams

Was wondering when that one was going to come.

 

[Stiffy_18]

1. I think he did a reasonably good job and one thing that I really like about Ayres' era at the club is how he came in and cleaned a lot of dead wood left over from Blighty. He drilled us into a team that will always have a fair dinkum crack and if we do lose we will lose on our own terms. For the things I have mantioned I have the utmost respect for Ayres. Ayres is the only coach in our history that got us into finals for 3 years running and with Gary at the helm playing in finals has become a norm rather than exception.

However, as DaveW said, he has failed to deliver when our list has been good enough for a premiership. Now let me ask you this, if say Blight was our coach in 2002 or 2003 would we have gone on to atleast make the grand final in those years???????

The biggest beef I have with Ayres is his stuborness to admit mistakes. He will flog the horse to death until he realises its not working. HIs match day coaching can at times be very ordinay. If he can improve in this area he would be a much better coach. However, he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

2. I think the expectation that he put on the club is what he has to achieve. He said we are a top 4 side so one would assume if he doesn't get us to top 4 he is a dead man walking. If we miss finals all together is is GONE.


When it comes to recruiting the coach always has a final say. We recruited to patch up some holes in our structure with Carey when at the same time we could have gone hell for leather after Pavlich and if we put in as much effort into getting Pavlich as we did in Carey we would be a lot better off in the short and long term.

In the past we have been hearing how we will introduce youngtes into the side but never did untul this year. I think we must praise Ayres in this regard when it comes to this season. He has introduced Reilly, Hentschel, Schuback, S. Stevens, Hudson and now he brought in Jericho. At what stage in the past have we had as many as 4 youngsters (& 1 mature recruit) in the side with less than 10 AFL games of experince. Personally, I think so far this year Ayres has been reasonably unselfish. He could have gone back and relied on players that have played in the past and done their job but never suggested that they would be stars of the future. Now he is giving youth a go and we are seeing some positive signs.

We see that we can rely on Hentschel to play KP for years to come. We can see that Reilly and Schuback are up to it and will be good players for us in long term. We are yet to see Jericho and I reckon before the year is out we will see the likes of Bock, Watts and possibly Krueger make their AFL debuts.

For all the crappy start to the game I think we are moving in a poositive direction as a club. We are introducing mreo youngsters that we have in the past and I for one am very hapy about that .

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by cwood_rules
i think were seeing a repeat of Robert Shaw......
and the recruiting is ****.....get rid of ayres and bring back MALCOLM BLIGHT DAMMIT!!!

Do you realise what was Blight's recruiting like??????

He was more of a short term recruiter than Ayres.

 

[noddy]

Remind me when/if the fortunes of our respective clubs swing around to pay more attention to the Port Power board & if i may be so bold = RUB THEIR NOSES IN IT


As to the ? being asked by PF,

The worst thing that Blighty could have said in late 99 was that he has left G Ayres a list primed for the top 4 in 2000.

Gary Ayres has probably extracted the most out of the group he was left with & the main gripe i have in the last 4 years or so is that not too many of our draft picks/trades have made much of an impact at AFL level, can't really put all the blame for that on Ayresy although not taking the advice regards the Angwin/K Cornes draft choice by those more qualified than he & his adviser does leave a sour taste in the mouth.

All coaches are judged by the results that they produce on the field whether it be the position on the ladder at years end or maybe how the development of juniors has progressed & as much as i would love to see the AFC in the top 4 & playing finals this year i believe Gary Ayres & the Crows face an uphill battle to even make the 8.

& if that is so i would expect the AFC to bid farewell to Gary & if i had my way go flat out for Gary O'Donnell.

 

[PAfolwr]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
1. I think he did a reasonably good job and one thing that I really like about Ayres' era at the club is how he came in and cleaned a lot of dead wood left over from Blighty. He drilled us into a team that will always have a fair dinkum crack and if we do lose we will lose on our own terms. For the things I have mantioned I have the utmost respect for Ayres. Ayres is the only coach in our history that got us into finals for 3 years running and with Gary at the helm playing in finals has become a norm rather than exception.

However, as DaveW said, he has failed to deliver when our list has been good enough for a premiership. Now let me ask you this, if say Blight was our coach in 2002 or 2003 would we have gone on to atleast make the grand final in those years???????

IMO he has overachieved, as the list that Blight had was better, and spread all over the park. In Ayres time you have had average to slightly above average KPPs and no KP forwards to speak of bar one that unfortunately has had injury problem more often than not.
The midfield has been your big plus, and now that it's waned it is starting to reflect on results.

I do not know if Blight would have gone better, but perhaps not. He may have "patched up" a bit differently, as that is something he did a lot of, and continued to do in his time at St Kilda.

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
The biggest beef I have with Ayres is his stuborness to admit mistakes. He will flog the horse to death until he realises its not working. HIs match day coaching can at times be very ordinay. If he can improve in this area he would be a much better coach. However, he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

Yes, unfortunately so do a most coaches. Including saying youngsters will play, and then.... I better stop on this one.

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
2. I think the expectation that he put on the club is what he has to achieve. He said we are a top 4 side so one would assume if he doesn't get us to top 4 he is a dead man walking. If we miss finals all together is is GONE.

If that is the case, unless the youngsters come up before they are expected to, he is gone.

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
When it comes to recruiting the coach always has a final say. We recruited to patch up some holes in our structure with Carey when at the same time we could have gone hell for leather after Pavlich and if we put in as much effort into getting Pavlich as we did in Carey we would be a lot better off in the short and long term.

In the past we have been hearing how we will introduce youngtes into the side but never did untul this year. I think we must praise Ayres in this regard when it comes to this season. He has introduced Reilly, Hentschel, Schuback, S. Stevens, Hudson and now he brought in Jericho. At what stage in the past have we had as many as 4 youngsters (& 1 mature recruit) in the side with less than 10 AFL games of experince. Personally, I think so far this year Ayres has been reasonably unselfish. He could have gone back and relied on players that have played in the past and done their job but never suggested that they would be stars of the future. Now he is giving youth a go and we are seeing some positive signs.

We see that we can rely on Hentschel to play KP for years to come. We can see that Reilly and Schuback are up to it and will be good players for us in long term. We are yet to see Jericho and I reckon before the year is out we will see the likes of Bock, Watts and possibly Krueger make their AFL debuts.

For all the crappy start to the game I think we are moving in a poositive direction as a club. We are introducing mreo youngsters that we have in the past and I for one am very hapy about that .

That is basically the reason for this thread. He seems to be doing what he has been accused of "not doing" in his time at Geelong and here. If he had done that last year and suffered results because of it, he would have been picked on because of the high expectations. Now he has to catch up before time. Damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Realistically, if he keeps going the way he is going, he should really be given at least one more year to see if he is any good at bringing a team up from scratch. Who knows, he may end up being the very best at it.
You'll never never know what he is like at it if he goes.

 

[PAfolwr]

Originally posted by noddy
Remind me when/if the fortunes of our respective clubs swing around to pay more attention to the Port Power board & if i may be so bold = RUB THEIR NOSES IN IT ...

Hey, you only said bold, but size as well?

No, nothing to do with rubbing it in, as IMO we haven't achieved that much yet this year. Although playing all those youngsters (long overdue), if it continues, will be what may eventually make the difference between this year and the last few.

Originally posted by noddy
...As to the ? being asked by PF,

The worst thing that Blighty could have said in late 99 was that he has left G Ayres a list primed for the top 4 in 2000.

Gary Ayres has probably extracted the most out of the group he was left with & the main gripe i have in the last 4 years or so is that not too many of our draft picks/trades have made much of an impact at AFL level, can't really put all the blame for that on Ayresy although not taking the advice regards the Angwin/K Cornes draft choice by those more qualified than he & his adviser does leave a sour taste in the mouth.

All coaches are judged by the results that they produce on the field whether it be the position on the ladder at years end or maybe how the development of juniors has progressed & as much as i would love to see the AFC in the top 4 & playing finals this year i believe Gary Ayres & the Crows face an uphill battle to even make the 8.

100%

Originally posted by noddy

& if that is so i would expect the AFC to bid farewell to Gary & if i had my way go flat out for Gary O'Donnell.

That is what I keep hearing, even though the previous bit somewhat contradicts it.
That is what I find confusing.
At least you are not saying Eade or Wallace and co.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by PAfolwr
When he was recruited, it seems as if he was given a "job", and that was to try and win the premiership with largely the list the Crows had by patching it up here and there, even though the year before was not a very good one.

better pull you up on this, we were a rabble when he took us over, I don't a flag was expected.

other than you raise a fair question of how he has actually done.

he was recruited to make us a regular finals contender, not a in one, and out the next kinda finals performer. he has absolutely succeeded in that regard.

though maybe come seasons end it will be time for a new direction.

 

[Crow-mosone]

I don't believe we were ever good enough to win a flag, we might have fluked one in 2002 with a bit of luck, but a large dose of luck was required.

does anyone with realistic expectations think we have been better than essendon (2000) or Brisbane the last 3 years.

were got ina good position on a couple occasions which was the absolute maximum that list could hope for.

 

[PAfolwr]

Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
better pull you up on this, we were a rabble when he took us over, I don't a flag was expected.

other than you raise a fair question of how he has actually done.

he was recruited to make us a regular finals contender, not a in one, and out the next kinda finals performer. he has absolutely succeeded in that regard.

though maybe come seasons end it will be time for a new direction.

The bad season before he left was blamed on injuries.
As Noddy said, "The worst thing that Blighty could have said in late 99 was that he has left G Ayres a list primed for the top 4 in 2000.

Anyway, just find it weird that one year he is a champ, and the next a dud, yet IMO where he seems to be heading this year is far better than the direction he was going last year.
That is October through to now this year and last.

 

[Stiffy_18]

It will be interesting to see if he will be around next year.

One thing we have to take a hat off to Ayres so far this year is that he is PLAYING youngsters, and not for just a quarter or so but for majority of the game. This despite being under the pump to get the results on the board. As I said earlier he could have easily opted for the players that have done the job before BUT he has played the youngsters and is not afraid to give them a tough assignment in games.

 

[naughty monkey]

Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
better pull you up on this, we were a rabble when he took us over, I don't a flag was expected.

This is what I don't get.

Adelaide had won back to back flags and followed that up with a year ruined mostly by injuries and a to a lesser extent a disinterested coach.

That's the sort of rabble I wouldn't mind coaching (If I was a coach )

 

[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
I don't believe we were ever good enough to win a flag, we might have fluked one in 2002 with a bit of luck, but a large dose of luck was required.

does anyone with realistic expectations think we have been better than essendon (2000) or Brisbane the last 3 years.

were got ina good position on a couple occasions which was the absolute maximum that list could hope for.

I believe if you're good enough to finish top 4, you're good enough to win it. 97 and 98 proved that to me.

I also believe Brisbane have been a bit lucky in who they have played in the GFs in the last two years, I believe others could have knocked them off if they had got that far. But that is a whole other debate though!

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
I believe if you're good enough to finish top 4, you're good enough to win it. 97 and 98 proved that to me.

uh we didn't finish top 4 in either year. 5th and 6th or 6th and 5th, can't remember.

 

[kirky]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
uh we didn't finish top 4 in either year. 5th and 6th or 6th and 5th, can't remember.

1997- 4th after minor round
1998 - 5th after minor round

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by kirky
1997- 4th after minor round
1998 - 5th after minor round

Correct

 

[tribey]

Originally posted by kirky
1997- 4th after minor round
1998 - 5th after minor round

Yeah, and in 1997 we were top of the ladder after Showdown 2 (round 17 or 18) before dropping our bundle somewhat.

 

[tribey]

Re: Re: Re: Ayres

Originally posted by naughty monkey
Adelaide had won back to back flags and followed that up with a year ruined mostly by injuries and a to a lesser extent a disinterested coach.

That's the sort of rabble I wouldn't mind coaching (If I was a coach )

Blight drafted/recruited a fair amount of crap in the summer of 98 though. With the exception of Brett Burton and Tyson Stenglein who while decent haven't exactly consistently set the world on fire and Kenny McGregor who even now is only just a solid, honest CHB without being a top-notch defender he brought in:

Lucas Herbert
Brodie Atkinson
Daryl Wintle
Bryan Bienke
Dean Howard
Matt Golding
David Gallagher

Is that the way you top-up a dual Premiership list to go for a third? With recycled failures and general garbage?

 

[lacrow]

With all the talk about Ayres giving the youngsters a real chance - and doing so being a good thing for the club - I was wondering if maybe he erred a few years back by not giving Adam Richardson a real chance to find his feet at AFL level?

(I know I've probably beaten this topic to death already, but be nice. )