"Bravery"?

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Just lately, given the debate on this board about MJ's role and qualities (or lack thereof), compared to the cacophony of media squawking about the "un-Australian" "Curnow incident" and Goddard "playing angry" but not playing at his best, I've been pondering the balance that we (ie the Freo fans and broader AFL followers) should be aiming for in our core players.

Obviously footskills, pace, positioning, endurance and athletic ability are factors. As is experience and proven big-game winning performances. But what are those generally unspoken, but obviously highly rated, qualities that lead someone to be rated as a "leader" or a "core player"? When we look at developing first, second and third year players, what are the core personal qualities that we rate the most??

In looking at past threads on here and elsewhere in AFL fan land, I kept coming across terms like "courage", "heart and soul", "commitment", "have a go", "gutsiness", and the pure Aussie "when its your time to go, you go".

Then I noticed the recent upsurge in the use of the term "bravery", especially as a quality that was lacking in naturally talented but under performing players. And then I remembered an older piece from one of my favourite non-AFL blogs on the same subject. The key parts are set out below (sorry for the length), and re-reading it really got me thinking - do we want brave?? Do we want MJ to throw himself into the path of a leading Dean Cox??

So - I ask you - is it good to be brave, as so many seem to be demanding of the MJs of the world? Or is bravery in a team game over-rated?

Bravery is one of the great intangibles of football. It is a quality demanded by fans and craved by managers; it oozes from some players, it is gapingly and shockingly absent from others. You know it when you see it, and you feel it when you don’t. It has been held up as the quality that separates the good from the great; the inspirational from the inconsequential; and, if you’ll forgive a brief lapse into lumpen cliché, the men from the boys.

Ernest Hemingway doesn’t strike me as a man who would have had much time for football, but he knew a thing or two about bullfighting, and a thing or two more about writing. In Death in the Afternoon, his great and bloody exegesis on Spain and the bullring, he states that all matadors (bar three, but read the book for them) are brave, and explicates as follows:

The most common degree of bravery [is] the ability temporarily to ignore possible consequences. A more pronounced degree of bravery, which comes with exhilaration, is the ability not to give a damn for consequences; not only to ignore them but to despise them.​

[see http://twistedblood.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/who-by-brave-assent/ ]
​

 

[Freo2012]

Interesting piece(s)

Like every aspect of life the answer isn't at the extremes, its somewhere in between. This isn't really a question of total foolhardy bravery versus run away on sight cowardice. Its a question of the level of bravery considered the norm and whether someone does more or less than that.

Take a battle - more often or not where there is a closely matched battle and tactics it is the sole brave act of a few that can turn the corner on the whole battle and result in a one-sided outcome - this applies to many aspects of life.

In any sport you very quickly learn from doing and watching other players around you what levels of bravery are regarded as above the norm, which are below and also which are foolhardy to the point that injury and net detriment to the team results. The aim obviously is for that amount just below the foolhardy - all about risk. Every aspect of life involves risk and through hard experience comes the knowledge of how far to push it - we actually do it sub-conciously with everything we do - think about it.

But there is a HUGE difference in bravery and the risk associated depending on what you are doing. Be foolhardy brave on a battlefield and you most probably will be dead, do it on the footy field and you may more likely get an injury, with a very very slight increased risk of grave injury.

What i hate is watching those that have been in the footy system long enough and still don't put in every opportunity - at the expected bravery level, but more specifically in the commitment/endeavour area, which IMO is by far the most important single attribute to any player, and every aspect of life.

In regards to commitment/endeavour there really are no excuses to leave the field wondering if you could have put more out there - the time has passed on that opportunity and that lost opportunity can never come again. We all do only live once, so do it right each and every fckn time.

 

[estibador]

Firstly let's remember that article is written from a soccer perspective... and that in a full contact sport like footy bravery is a far more important attribute if you want to win games consistently.

Having said that I'm ok with players lacking kamikaze bravery as long as they bring other things to the table to compensate.

As much as I love him Hilly isn't exactly the bravest footy player around and occasionally doesn't body the line of the ball as we'd like - but he has a magnificent skill set which makes up for it. Very few players are the complete package - that's what makes guys like Carey and Mathews so revered.

MJ's problem at the moment is his offensive play isn't making up for his lack of hardness at the contest. No one has a problem with him when he's at his silky best, despite not being a courageous hardman then either.

Then you've got guys like DeBoer - his skill set basically revolves around him being ridiculously brave and in all honesty that's the only reason he has a spot. He sets a great example and must be inspirational to his teammates, but from a long term perspective I'm not sure it would be ideal for some of our more skilful players to be quite that kamikaze.

 

[E Shed]

In regards to commitment/endeavour there really are no excuses to leave the field wondering if you could have put more out there - the time has passed on that opportunity and that lost opportunity can never come again. We all do only live once, so do it right each and every fckn time.

Yep. I got the opportunity to pull on a jumper in the recent Western Desert Carnival with some of the boys who will be playing in the Curtain Raiser this week. Now I'm 48 and haven't played footy for some years but I thought fk it, I'll never get this chance again. I ran around for a while to pick up the pace then went in as hard as I could at a 50/50 ball. I got the ball out to a team mate a fraction of second before I got a heavy (to me) hip and shoulder which left me gasping in the red dirt (the games are played on hard dirt and stones). I got up and ran on and the guy that decked me gave me a smile and a low 5. I'm no hero and no one else even noticed it but I'll remember it forever.

Of course I twisted my knee 5 minutes later, hobbled off & could barely walk for a week One side of my body is black & blue & it serves me right at my age!

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Its a question of the level of bravery considered the norm and whether someone does more or less than that.
...
What i hate is watching those that have been in the footy system long enough and still don't put in every opportunity - at the expected bravery level, but more specifically in the commitment/endeavour area, which IMO is by far the most important single attribute to any player, and every aspect of life.

In regards to commitment/endeavour there really are no excuses to leave the field wondering if you could have put more out there - the time has passed on that opportunity and that lost opportunity can never come again. We all do only live once, so try as hard as you possibly can to do it right each and every fckn time.

The bit in purple is actually very close to capturing the spirit that I am after, certainly I think it is a much better concept than ideas of "bravery". I've just added the bit in green because I don't think it's fair to expect perfection in results always. Rather, we are seeking a never failing effort to give your all??

Firstly let's remember that article is written from a soccer perspective... and that in a full contact sport like footy bravery is a far more important attribute if you want to win games consistently.

Good call, sorry, I should have made the context of the blog clearer, I'd agree that golf and AFL have somewhat different core attributes (despites what Mammaries says).

Then you've got guys like DeBoer - his skill set basically revolves around him being ridiculously brave and in all honesty that's the only reason he has a spot. He sets a great example and must be inspirational to his teammates, but from a long term perspective I'm not sure it would be ideal for some of our more skilful players to be quite that kamikaze.

Really, really useful example - DePig is an excellent example of the type of player that I was struggling to explain - why (despite limited athletic skills and only fair natural ability) are they so revered and what qualities do we look for in similar junior players?? The only thing I'd suggest might be added is that perhaps it is better to focus on those junior players who have had to deal with disappointment - eg if DePig was drafted where he was first expected to go, instead of being overlooked, would he work as hard at the basics and throw himself about with such a vandal's abandon?? Same is true for Barlow, Lower and Curnow I'd suggest...

I got the ball out to a team mate a fraction of second before I got a heavy (to me) hip and shoulder which left me gasping in the red dirt (the games are played on hard dirt and stones). I got up and ran on and the guy that decked me gave me a smile and a low 5. I'm no hero and no one else even noticed it but I'll remember it forever.

FWIW, I think bravery/commitment/endeavour/having a go or whatever it bloody is that I'm trying to capture is often only really "awarded" when your fellow players and teammates acknowledge your efforts. Only a true competitor can really judge another...

Of course I twisted my knee 5 minutes later, hobbled off & could barely walk for a week One side of my body is black & blue & it serves me right at my age!

No such thing as age, E. Low 5, all round, for bush footy - though only if you can get the Zimmer frame to bend that low of course...

 

[PapaJ]

Interesting piece(s)

Like every aspect of life the answer isn't at the extremes, its somewhere in between. This isn't really a question of total foolhardy bravery versus run away on sight cowardice. Its a question of the level of bravery considered the norm and whether someone does more or less than that.

Very Aristotelian of you - I was thinking on the same lines. Stupid recklessness shouldn't be seen as a valuable thing for a footy player, but nor should runaway fear. More the point ...

...
Having said that I'm ok with players lacking kamikaze bravery as long as they bring other things to the table to compensate.
...

I think you've got it about right Esti. Certain players have bravery at a level where it's part of their 'skill set' and it's one of their key things they bring to the team - if it's not there, then they're not doing their job (so to speak). Now all should be brave, but Hill's (for eg.) primary 'gift' to the team (and to himself I suppose) isn't 'head first win the ball at all costs' type play. Same could be said for players like Ibbo, MJ, even Barlow* and others. As long as they play to their potential in whatever gifting and strength they have and it gives us a 'good mix', then I'm cool with that. It's a team sport after all.


* BTW, case in point. How we wish he as just that fraction 'less brave' that fateful Port game last year

 

[Freo4life]

Very Aristotelian of you - I was thinking on the same lines. Stupid recklessness shouldn't be seen as a valuable thing for a footy player, but nor should runaway fear. More the point ...



I think you've got it about right Esti. Certain players have bravery at a level where it's part of their 'skill set' and it's one of their key things they bring to the team - if it's not there, then they're not doing their job (so to speak). Now all should be brave, but Hill's (for eg.) primary 'gift' to the team (and to himself I suppose) isn't 'head first win the ball at all costs' type play. Same could be said for players like Ibbo, MJ, even Barlow* and others. As long as they play to their potential in whatever gifting and strength they have and it gives us a 'good mix', then I'm cool with that. It's a team sport after all.


* BTW, case in point. How we wish he as just that fraction 'less brave' that fateful Port game last year

Or Palmer less blind..

 

[Freodoc]

Or Palmer less blind..

Beat me to it ...

 

[Frigate]

An interesting read, even if it is "just another" MJ thread. It could have been titled "MJ is a coward" afterall but perhaps, that would been too obvious than comparing a definition of bravery written about a war, against one of the biggest mass murderers of all time - somehow does equate to a player fighting for form on the footy pitch.

I do not know how an out of form player on the chopping block gets this label and compared to completely different players such as Goddard and an 8 game player getting snipered on the footy pitch.

I do get reminded of Macca in the days and he quoted something along the line of he was so scared of the crowd booing him that he would literally shake attempting a simple chestmark, and the relief he would have if he held on. He was hardly a coward. A brave soldier.

Sometimes we get the best from people through positive reinforcement. McPhee is another classic example. We have a peanut not far from us that shouts out "No" everytime McPhee makes an error even if he has gone 3 quarters without a mistake. This supporter is a coward.

We can victimise players, and get the crowd to wait for them to fit our mindset, and verabalise in a ghastly tone to our mates "I told you..."

Tarrant, Croad, Medhurst, Clement.

 

[Clay Davis]

McManus was anything but a 'brave soldier'.

 

[peppy la pew]

You're not suggesting Macca was a coward, are you Clay ?

 

[Clay Davis]

You're not suggesting Macca was a coward, are you Clay ?

I'm suggesting the love and praise he got from so many fans for being 'brave' was over the top. He didn't get the hard ball, he didn't do the hard things. He seagulled just as much as Des Headland, yet because he was part of the club from the beginning, people felt he was somehow tough. Him spazzing it up in the 2007 North match blew our finals chances. He held on to his career for three seasons too long.

Getting cleaned up by Wirrpanda was the only thing he did that was brave, and that was probably because he had no awareness.

 

[peppy la pew]

I agree, he wasn't that gifted with clean skills.

But to put him in the same basket as Dessie the Gull, is a tad harsh.

The fact he nailed that goal after getting ironed out, endeared him to the faithful.

A loyal servant, nonetheless, and a good guy to boot

 

[Clay Davis]

I agree, he wasn't that gifted with clean skills.

But to put him in the same basket as Dessie the Gull, is a tad harsh.

Not really. How often did you see him get the hard ball? As often as Des.

 

[yakamoto]

I'm sure Clay agrees with you Peppy - Macca is a good guy to boot.
Really interesting thread though BPG.

 

[Frigate]

I'm suggesting the love and praise he got from so many fans for being 'brave' was over the top. He didn't get the hard ball, he didn't do the hard things. He seagulled just as much as Des Headland, yet because he was part of the club from the beginning, people felt he was somehow tough. Him spazzing it up in the 2007 North match blew our finals chances. He held on to his career for three seasons too long.

Getting cleaned up by Wirrpanda was the only thing he did that was brave, and that was probably because he had no awareness.

Congrats. Tough words. Perhaps try and get yourself the Matty Price book and learn a bit about our past on and off the field. Macca is everything the word brave stands for. He was a courageous personality and had to work twice as hard as gifted players to earn his guernsey. Everyone knew he lacked the skills that most others had at AFL level. He always gave his all though.

[YOUTUBE]13tSFJIGrb0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Clay Davis]

Congrats. Tough words. Perhaps try and get yourself the Matty Price book and learn a bit about our past on and off the field. Macca is everything the word brave stands for. He was a courageous personality and had to work twice as hard as gifted players to earn his guernsey. Everyone knew he lacked the skills that most others had at AFL level. He always gave his all though.

The Matt Price book is utter rubbish. Glorifies Fremantle's shitness.

When was the last time McManus put his body on the line like that? 2001? In the latter part of his career he held on too long and played pathetic football.

 

[theGav56]

McManus was anything but a 'brave soldier'.

I'm suggesting the love and praise he got from so many fans for being 'brave' was over the top. He didn't get the hard ball, he didn't do the hard things. He seagulled just as much as Des Headland, yet because he was part of the club from the beginning, people felt he was somehow tough. Him spazzing it up in the 2007 North match blew our finals chances. He held on to his career for three seasons too long.

Getting cleaned up by Wirrpanda was the only thing he did that was brave, and that was probably because he had no awareness.

A new low in posting. Benchmark it.

He came back from a couple of knee injuries. He captained the club and fronted the media in the worst of times. He didn't only get cleaned up by/with Wirra, he then got up and slotted the goal. The issues you have re North and the length of his career have nothing to do with bravery.

The level of "love and praise" you refer to has nothing at all to do with the question of bravery and has zero relevance. It makes him neither more or less brave.

I just can't believe that a poster who continuously demonstrates no bravery or self awareness or respect can have a crack at a player like MacManus. Stupendously poor posting. Mean spirited and lacking credibility.

 

[Clay Davis]

A new low in posting. Benchmark it.

He came back from a couple of knee injuries. He captained the club and fronted the media in the worst of times. He didn't only get cleaned up by/with Wirra, he then got up and slotted the goal. The issues you have re North and the length of his career have nothing to do with bravery.

The level of "love and praise" you refer to has nothing at all to do with the question of bravery and has zero relevance. It makes him neither more or less brave.

I just can't believe that a poster who continuously demonstrates no bravery or self awareness or respect can have a crack at a player like MacManus. Stupendously poor posting. Mean spirited and lacking credibility.

Luke Webster came back from three knee injuries and retired in good grace when the footy world passed him by. So did Justin Longmuir.

McManus held on too long, whiteanted the coach in 2004 when we were in a reasonable period of form, and generally held back the club when it was time to go.

He might have taken a few hits on the footy field, but he was anything but brave when it really mattered.

 

[theGav56]

Luke Webster came back from three knee injuries and retired in good grace when the footy world passed him by. So did Justin Longmuir.

McManus held on too long, whiteanted the coach in 2004 when we were in a reasonable period of form, and generally held back the club when it was time to go.

He might have taken a few hits on the footy field, but he was anything but brave when it really mattered.

The posts of a shameless and ignorant coward right here.

If he is offered a contract it is up to him to accept or not. But if the club is saying we want you, says zero about bravery. Webster was not offered one....? Solomon got another year, then bailed on us, but it doesn't make him more or less brave.

 

[Frigate]

The Matt Price book is utter rubbish. Glorifies Fremantle's shitness.

When was the last time McManus put his body on the line like that? 2001? In the latter part of his career he held on too long and played pathetic football.

Wow! I am speechless. I question your heart colour. Those times were some of the best I have experienced with footy, even if we were shite.

 

[Clay Davis]

The posts of a shameless and ignorant coward right here.

If he is offered a contract it is up to him to accept or not. But if the club is saying we want you, says zero about bravery. Webster was not offered one....? Solomon got another year, then bailed on us, but it doesn't make him more or less brave.

If he is dropped for a game and then proceeds to whiteant the coach during the season because of it, what is that called? Bravery? Amazing definition you have there, Gav.

 

[prattsta]

Having said that I'm ok with players lacking kamikaze bravery as long as they bring other things to the table to compensate.

I'm a big advocate for the table test. It's not definitive, but it's a pretty good guide to a players worth. What is a player bringing to the table and what are they taking off the table?

 

[Billy Hunt]

Clay the clown, Clay the intellectual keyboard warrior or just Clay the goose, take your pick.

 

[Clay Davis]

Clay the clown, Clay the intellectual keyboard warrior or just Clay the goose, take your pick.

Hey Billy, how would you feel if you knew Macca supported the guernsey change?