List Mgmt. Burning Issues

[Roflcopter]

my personal thoughts on the players:

Chris Newman: Will probability struggle to be in best 22 next year. Might be alright playing as the sub.

Matt Dea: Give him one more year. Has to improve his kicking though

Jake Batchelor: I like this guy. 2014 should be make or break for him

Luke McGuane: He's been good this year but we should let him go to another club

Ben Griffiths: Why are we playing him in the backline? I understand we need a big backman and he's not going to become one. He's a forward and needs to be given games next season to show what he can really do. Prefer to keep him and shop Elton.

Robin Nahas: Clearly fallen out of favour at the club. Think Port Melbourne want him to come back

Brad Helbig: Needs to stay on the list. If he can get fit and string a few games together then it'll be worth it

Matt White: Earned a new contract with the work he did this year. We need his speed.

Tom Derickx: Delist. 3 years and not much to show for it. Better off playing back in the WAFL

Nathan Foley: Lost a bit of speed to his game. Don't know if we'd get much for shopping him so I'd keep him. Needs to have a good pre-season.

Matthew Arnot: Sign the man up. Big body and always looks to hurt his opponent. Need a guy like that to come in and play around the half forward line.

Bret O'Hanlon: He's a good player but don't think he'll force his way into the 22 anytime soon. Delist

 

[Mr Magic]

I don't really think we should or would be entertaining trading someone only three years in with the scope of Batchelor.

You would only trade for a win to RFC and Batch. Your not trading as a way of picking up something on the way out like some.


Batch would be a wanted player. To get wins and develop the list and improve careers I think players and clubs need to understand unless absolute untouchable( and even they can be tradeable eg. Cotch for the next 3 years of No. 1 picks) anyone is tradeable for the benefit of clubs and players. One club players are nice but really it is more unrealistic than most think although it should still be common. So to make things happen that are to the benefit of everybody, players with currency will have to traded, otherwise hardly anything gets done except FA and dud(delist candidates) move ons.

I am not saying move Batchelor on, but if a deal comes up, that is significantly in RFC and Batchelors favour, as with other players, why not?

 

[sante]

1. Chris Newman

No brainer here, will always be best 22 but 2014 could be his last...

2. Matt Dea

I like him, I think he should be best 22 and we lack a defender of his size. Would prefer him in the backline to release Vlas and Deledio or even Houli to midfield/wing.

3. Jake Batchelor

Would be a required player IMO but if another club is after him we would probably let him go, but I'd like to see him play on a wing or at least further up the ground, is a good footballer.

4. David Astbury

Will stay as well, had injuries & KPPs always take longer but 2014 is a big one for him but I can't see him breaking into the team unless injuries force it.

5. Luke McGuane

Reckon the club wouldn't want to delist him because he had a decent year but I can't see him being apart of much next year, should trade IMO.

6. Ben Griffiths

We need to play him, whether its defence or forward, give him the opportunity, not many talls can kick like he does.

7. Robin Nahas

Trade.

8. Brad Helbig

Could see him being rookied, just to help with list management. Feel like they will want to give him one more shot, needs to play somewhere besides HB though.

9. Matthew White

Definitely keep. Is best 22 for mine.

10. Tom Derickx

Delist.

11. Nathan Foley

Looks like trade bait but if we don't need to trade him we will keep for sure, but could see him as depth and possibly sub when playing in 2014.

12. Matthew Arnot

Expect him to be best 22 next year playing the HF role, switching into the midfield.

13. Brett O'Hanlon

Delisting is possible, depends how many picks we want & how many we offload via trade & whether we upgrade any rookies.

 

[Grockadoc]

1. Chris Newman
Does he still command a best 22 spot in 2014?

At the moment, yes. Absolutely. McIntosh and Dea are still pretty raw, and Batchelor is too inconsistent at present. I'd say 2014 is going to be his last year as a best 22 player, and may even be his last at the club.

If not, should we name him VFL captain?

Would love for Newy to stick around for a year or two and captain the VFL side, just to get them up and running until someone else can take over.

2. Matt Dea
Will he finally become a best 22 player in 2014?

No, not yet, unless we move one of Houli and Newman further up the ground permanently. Chaplin, Grimes, Rance, Houli and Morris are automatic inclusions in our backline, which leaves Newy's place in a bit of a bind. we have Deledio, Ellis and Vlastuin all rotating through their with Newy, and I don't think Dea is ready to take over yet. Another 12 months of developing should see him get a gig, but not this year unless injuries take their toll.

3. Jake Batchelor
Can he get back to being a best 22 player in 2014?

50/50. His biggest issue for me is consistency. When he is having a good day, he looks awesome, but most of the time he is only so-so in terms of output. He is a better long term prospect for us then Newman, but I'd still rather Newman and Grimes as our medium sized defenders at the moment.

Should we look at trading him this off season?

Yes, we should, but only for the right price. He has shown he can be a very good defender, but he is a victim of our growing depth. Was Pick 30 in 2010, and if we can ship him off, or package him with our third rounder to a club like St. Kilda, or the Western Bulldogs for their second, I'd happily take it.

4. David Astbury

Can he get back to the level he showed in his debut season?

I believe he can. A dislocated Patella takes a LOT to come back from, and Dave is slowly coming back from it. Has shown some promising signs so far, and will be a whole lot better for another year of development. I am unsure though, if his best position is as a defender, or as a forward, though.

Should we look at trading him this off season?

You'd think one of Astbury and Griffiths will be shipped off, and to be frank, I'd rather keep Griffiths than Astbury. Astbury looks like an above average player, but Griffiths has all the makings of a very, very good player. Again, like Batchelor, I'd only ship them off for the right price though, and for Astbury, I'd place that as an end of 2nd rounder.

5. Luke McGuane
Should we re-sign him?

I'd rather move him on to somewhere like Brisbane if the deal is right, but I'd be happy if he was given another contract. Is a pretty good decoy forward and we could do a hell of a lot worse than having Luke go around another year.

6. Ben Griffiths
Can he step up and become the KPF we hoped he would be when drafted?

It is an interesting one. He has all the tools to become a very, very good CHF at AFL level, but seems disinterested a lot of the time. Seems timid and afraid to but his body on the line, whether it is because he doesn't have heart, or if it is because he still isn't confident in his body, I'm not sure. I tend to lean towards the latter, as he has done some pretty courageous things at VFL like backing into a pack with the flight of the ball etc. He isn't a defender, and is being played out of position. He reminds me a bit of David Gourdis, but is a lot more talented in that he is a pure goalkicker. Might be interesting to see how he goes lining up on a wing a la Richo in 2008.

Should we look at trading him this off season?

If the price is right. I can see one one of Astbury or Griff being shipped on this year, and I'd rather keep Griffiths as he has more upside in my opinion. Being played out of position and injury prone hasn't helped his development at all.

7. Robin Nahas
Should we keep him on the list or should we trade him for whatever we can get?

Trade or Delist. I really don't mind, just as long as he isn't on our list next season. He has been a good bit-player for us over the past few seasons, but the game has evolved, and has exposed him as the small, undersized, one dimensional player he is, and he is a liability whenever he plays.

8. Brad Helbig
Can he push for a best 22 spot if he remains on the list?

Maybe in a year or two, but not now, and not next year. As a half back, I rate Dea and McIntosh ahead of him, as a midfielder, we have Conca is a very similar player, Vlastuin, Arnot all ahead of him, and our first rounder if it is a midfielder, will also be ahead of him. Another who has become victim of our growing depth. Is talented, but raw, and if he can iron out some flaws in his game, could become another version of Jackson.

9. Matthew White
Should he be re-signed?

Absolutely. If only for the fact that he is a prime example of how people should act towards the club. He is a great clubman, and loves this club more than most, and his passion should be something that most of our players could learn a thing or two from. Our team is pretty one paced at the moment, and White provides us with that spark and X-factor that we lack.

Does he retain his best 22 spot in 2014?

Yes. I'd rather White in the side than Shaun Grigg. I think Grigg may find it hard to crack a game next year, especially if we draft a mid with our first pick.

10. Tom Derickx
If we delist him and there is no mature ruckman available in the draft should we rookie list him?

No. There are plenty of ready to go state league ruckman (Sikora, Tighe etc.) as well as ruckman on other lists who are a more viable option than Derickx (Redden, Currie, Giles etc.). Inconsistency has been a major factor with him, and he has been played out of position. He is never going to be anything more than a serviceable ruckman at VFL level, but I really cannot see him translating that to AFL level.

11. Nathan Foley
Will he regain his spot in the best 22 in 2014?

Probably not. Has looked a little out of sorts the past month or so, and I think it's starting to take a toll on him. I'd love to see him prove me wrong, but I just don't think he is up to AFL standard anymore, which is a shame because he had a very promising AFL career. We have been pretty unfortunate with injury prone midfielders who looked promising (Dragicevic, Coughlan, Foley.). It depends on who we draft too. If we get Christian Salem, Foley can basically be ruled out, because Salem is pretty much in the same mould, but is a lot more aggressive at the ball and the man, but doesn't have the same line breaking ability or explosive first few steps and what Foley does.

12. Matthew Arnot
Will he be Tucks replacement in the midfield?

I think it all depends on who we draft. If we get someone who's inside game is excellent (Sheed or Freeman), then No, I don't think so, as those two are much better in the clinches than what Arnot is. If we draft someone like Christian Salem, who I liken to more of a Nathan Foley, than yes, Arnot could become a Tuck replacement.

13. Brett O'Hanlon
Can he force his way into the 22 in 2014 if fully fit?

Absolutely he could. I rate him as one of our top 3 at the club in terms of pure footballing ability behind Martin and McDonough. Is a strong mark, long kick, and his kicking is very, very good. Has great movement speed, and a pretty good fitness base. Would be a great player on the half forward line, but I'd like to see him playing on a wing, as I think he could be a dangerous player there.

 

[SumTingWong]

13. Brett O'Hanlon
Can he force his way into the 22 in 2014 if fully fit?

Absolutely he could. I rate him as one of our top 3 at the club in terms of pure footballing ability behind Martin and McDonough. Is a strong mark, long kick, and his kicking is very, very good. Has great movement speed, and a pretty good fitness base. Would be a great player on the half forward line, but I'd like to see him playing on a wing, as I think he could be a dangerous player there.

He has no speed. Not slow, but speed is not one of his attributes.

Played the first half of the year at Coburg here and was OK/underwelming. Agree is a beautiful kick. Can only play HFF imo.

 

[Groupie_]

Cut Derickx ASAP

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

You would only trade for a win to RFC and Batch. Your not trading as a way of picking up something on the way out like some.


Batch would be a wanted player. To get wins and develop the list and improve careers I think players and clubs need to understand unless absolute untouchable( and even they can be tradeable eg. Cotch for the next 3 years of No. 1 picks) anyone is tradeable for the benefit of clubs and players. One club players are nice but really it is more unrealistic than most think although it should still be common. So to make things happen that are to the benefit of everybody, players with currency will have to traded, otherwise hardly anything gets done except FA and dud(delist candidates) move ons.

I am not saying move Batchelor on, but if a deal comes up, that is significantly in RFC and Batchelors favour, as with other players, why not?

I hear what you are saying.
I just think in the case of Batchelor(and I'm being quite specific because each player is a seperate case) that its a real tricky one where you must weigh up how much improvement and development is left in a player.
So when trading for another player who is more established than he is that needs to be taken into account,and it's a pretty dangerous game you play then.
Same for picks unless you are trading into the top 15 which is unrealistic anyway.

As I say though every player is different. I consider that Batchelor has far more room for improvement than say Steve Morris if you are looking for that type of example.

 

[Mr Magic]

I hear what you are saying.
I just think in the case of Batchelor(and I'm being quite specific because each player is a seperate case) that its a real tricky one where you must weigh up how much improvement and development is left in a player.
So when tradingi for another player who is more established than he is that needs to be taken into account,and it's a pretty dangerous game you play then.
Same for picks unless you are trading into the top 15 which is unrealistic anyway.

As I say though every player is different. I consider that Batchelor has far more room for improvement than say Steve Morris if you are looking for that type of example.

Don't think Morris and Batch competing for the spot mind you but in terms of culture and Morris's application can't see him going anywhere.

Maybe I do not see as much upside in Batch as others but I do not see a lot of upside in Houli either. I think better to keep a Dea at value and trade some others including Foley possibly Jackson etc.. to get improvement is my thinking atm if it is deemed a win win for everybody

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Don't think Morris and Batch competing for the spot mind you but in terms of culture and Morris's application can't see him going anywhere.

Maybe I do not see as much upside in Batch as others but I do not see a lot of upside in Houli either. I think better to keep a Dea at value and trade some others including Foley possibly Jackson etc.. to get improvement is my thinking atm if it is deemed a win win for everybody

There is no chance of us trading Jackson.
I'm not saying trade Morris nor that they are competing for the same spot.
I was just trying to think of a player that I think is near to about as good as they ever will be compared to someone who has a lot of improvement left IMO.

 

[Mr Magic]

There is no chance of us trading Jackson.
I'm not saying trade Morris nor that they are competing for the same spot.
I was just trying to think of a player that I think is near to about as good as they ever will be compared to someone who has a lot of improvement left IMO.

Someone mentioned Jacko in a GWS trade but you take everything you read here with a grain of salt IMO.

Who has upside and who doesn't for you?

Honestly I can't see a great deal of upside in Arnott still, he has youth on his side and I hope he proves me wrong

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Too early for me to tell with Arnott but he's hot improvement left no doubt.
Personally I think the players I can't see being much better than they are right now(and that's not a knock) Are players like Deledio,Grigg,Shane Edwards,Mcguane,Maric,Jackson these types. Even Martin probably.
Basically I reckon these blokes are at their optimum form.

 

[Mr Magic]

Too early for me to tell with Arnott but he's hot improvement left no doubt.
Personally I think the players I can't see being much better than they are right now(and that's not a knock) Are players like Deledio,Grigg,Shane Edwards,Mcguane,Maric,Jackson these types. Even Martin probably.
Basically I reckon these blokes are at their option form.

Agree except Martin should definitely get better and Lids as well once the shift him out of the backline

 

[Harmichael]

You would only trade for a win to RFC and Batch. Your not trading as a way of picking up something on the way out like some.


Batch would be a wanted player. To get wins and develop the list and improve careers I think players and clubs need to understand unless absolute untouchable( and even they can be tradeable eg. Cotch for the next 3 years of No. 1 picks) anyone is tradeable for the benefit of clubs and players. One club players are nice but really it is more unrealistic than most think although it should still be common. So to make things happen that are to the benefit of everybody, players with currency will have to traded, otherwise hardly anything gets done except FA and dud(delist candidates) move ons.

I am not saying move Batchelor on, but if a deal comes up, that is significantly in RFC and Batchelors favour, as with other players, why not?

LMAO - so if different clubs finish last over these three years how do we get these picks? Would Cotchin have to play a year each for them? Or do you mean a club's first pick for three years?

There's isn't a player in the league that would get you multiple years of first round picks. Not even Ablett & Franklin.

 

[Mr Magic]

LMAO - so if different clubs finish last over these three years how do we get these picks? Would Cotchin have to play a year each for them? Or do you mean a club's first pick for three years?

There's isn't a player in the league that would get you multiple years of first round picks. Not even Ablett & Franklin.

it was a hypothetical.

Ie no matter how it happened some made up AFL HQ compo picks or whatever, would you do the trade??


Or this trade Cotch for Cameron and Omeara?? probably do it wouldn't you. Won't happen but just proves if price is right anyone is tradeable if al parties agree and happy.

No body gets a ball chained to their ankle by force, Think slavery was outlawed a few years back..

 

[che88]

always thought batch as an andrew walker type forward would be good.great mark,strong,big kick and while not fast is not slow.

 

[Harmichael]

it was a hypothetical.

Ie no matter how it happened some made up AFL HQ compo picks or whatever, would you do the trade??


Or this trade Cotch for Cameron and Omeara?? probably do it wouldn't you. Won't happen but just proves if price is right anyone is tradeable if al parties agree and happy.

No body gets a ball chained to their ankle by force, Think slavery was outlawed a few years back..

That's a different matter You won't get multiple picks over multiple years. Not sure it's even allowed. You can save compo picks for 2-3 years but you can still only use them once.

 

[Mr Magic]

That's a different matter You won't get multiple picks over multiple years. Not sure it's even allowed. You can save compo picks for 2-3 years but you can still only use them once.

the point was any player is tradeable including Cotch , not whether you can get top pick for next 3 years. If the hypothetical could have used a better example I will confess I agree, my bad

 

[Grockadoc]

He has no speed. Not slow, but speed is not one of his attributes.

Played the first half of the year at Coburg here and was OK/underwelming. Agree is a beautiful kick. Can only play HFF imo.

I should have clarified. In regards to his speed, he isn't overly quick, but from what I've seen, he has great acceleration of the mark, his first few steps are pretty quick. He doesn't have a very quick top speed, but he does have pace that is slightly above average. He isn't blessed with pace, but he does seem to have a quick first couple of steps that sees him find some space and time.

 

[tigs2010]

As the 2013 season has finished and we're now heading into the silly season of delistings/trades/draft, I wanted to generate some discussion about some players who end this season with question marks over their futures.

1. Chris Newman
Does he still command a best 22 spot in 2014? Borderline for best 22 for mine and that's if he maintains form, which isn't a guarantee.
If not, should we name him VFL captain? No, I think as a borderline best 22 player he's still likely to play 10-15 games when injuries hit as he's likely to be 23-25 guy on the list.

2. Matt Dea
Will he finally become a best 22 player in 2014? Hope so, but doubt it. Hopefully he has a healthy pre-season and is given the NAB Cup (practice games whatever they are?) to cement a spot. Is tough, clean, skilled and can rack up the ball at VFL but lacks confidence at AFL level and only worries about his man and not about the offensive game.

3. Jake Batchelor
Can he get back to being a best 22 player in 2014? Yes, he isn't a KPD. 4th tall, rebounding medium defender off a HBF is his go. But with all the weight he's stacked on to be a KPD he's too slow for this role. Slim down this pre-season and he can get back in the side IMO.
Should we look at trading him this off season? Yes, if we get a decent offer or he helps seal a bigger trade I'm happy with that.

4. David Astbury
Can he get back to the level he showed in his debut season? Needs an injury free pre-season to hopefully regain some speed. Was never blessed with it but has good footy brain and skills.
Should we look at trading him this off season? No, he's our 4th KPD behind Rance, Chaplin, Grimes and with Grimes injuries we will inevitably need him.

5. Luke McGuane
Should we re-sign him? No, we should only be keeping one of Luke and A.Edwards and for me Edwards fits the game plan better with his forward smarts and leading patterns that create space.

6. Ben Griffiths
Can he step up and become the KPF we hoped he would be when drafted? Doubt it. I think he's a Schulz that needs a kick in the arse and may come good at another club.
Should we look at trading him this off season? Yes, if the deal is decent. Something like swap for Michie from Fremantle. They need KPP's, we need midfield depth.

7. Robin Nahas
Should we keep him on the list or should we trade him for whatever we can get? Trade for whatever, hopefully a pick upgrade that we can use otherwise delist.

8. Brad Helbig
Can he push for a best 22 spot if he remains on the list? I think he has the ability but he's not a rebounding defender. He's a tough nut inside mid. Has all the attributes but plays out of position at AFL level. Big year for him.

9. Matthew White
Should he be re-signed? Yes, best 22 currently and won't get anything for him.
Does he retain his best 22 spot in 2014? Most likely. Hopefully we can recruit some extra speed and skill in the draft to knock him out of the side/replace him long term but I can't see someone doing that next year.

10. Tom Derickx
If we delist him and there is no mature ruckman available in the draft should we rookie list him? If there's no one else then yes. At least he knows the structures and hopefully we grab a young ruck like Darcy Cameron for the future.

11. Nathan Foley
Will he regain his spot in the best 22 in 2014? If we keep him then he's borderline. Probably just with Tuck retiring. Hopefully if he stays he gets a full pre-season under his belt which should make a massive difference.

12. Matthew Arnot
Will he be Tucks replacement in the midfield? Probably not as a 1st choice guy but as part of a group of youngster's rotating. Not sure Tuck needs replacing as he barely played this year.

13. Brett O'Hanlon
Can he force his way into the 22 in 2014 if fully fit? Doubt it. Handy depth though. Bit of a project when we took him in PSD. Needs to work on contested game still.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

He

I should have clarified. In regards to his speed, he isn't overly quick, but from what I've seen, he has great acceleration of the mark, his first few steps are pretty quick. He doesn't have a very quick top speed, but he does have pace that is slightly above average. He isn't blessed with pace, but he does seem to have a quick first couple of steps that sees him find some space and time.

He thinks quickly .

 

[Grockadoc]

6. Ben Griffiths
Can he step up and become the KPF we hoped he would be when drafted? Doubt it. I think he's a Schulz that needs a kick in the arse and may come good at another club.
Should we look at trading him this off season? Yes, if the deal is decent. Something like swap for Michie from Fremantle. They need KPP's, we need midfield depth.

If the club has learnt ANYTHING the last few years, I hope they realise you don't trade highly skilled Key Position Players for depth players. I like Michie, but no way would I trade Griffiths for him. Griff is worth way more than Michie.

 

[Grockadoc]

He
He thinks quickly .

Exactly, and that is one of the traits that not many players possess. This makes him persevering with.

 

[tigs2010]

If the club has learnt ANYTHING the last few years, I hope they realise you don't trade highly skilled Key Position Players for depth players. I like Michie, but no way would I trade Griffiths for him. Griff is worth way more than Michie.

Would you trade a midfielder dominating VFL for us for a guy in the WAFL who can't get a kick just because he's tall?

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Would you trade a midfielder dominating VFL for us for a guy in the WAFL who can't get a kick just because he's tall?

Haha that's very tricky.

 

[Grockadoc]

Would you trade a midfielder dominating VFL for us for a guy in the WAFL who can't get a kick just because he's tall?

I would if they were the quality of Griffiths. He has far more upside than Michie.

Also, on your point, yes, I would trade Sam Lonergan for one of Fraser McInnes or Tanner Smith.