Buying a house...?

[Brad Goodman]

For some reason I keep thinking Thornbury might be the place to go. I'd never live there myself, but what do people think about the growth potential around there?

 

[one_twelve112]

For some reason I keep thinking Thornbury might be the place to go. I'd never live there myself, but what do people think about the growth potential around there?

Excellent area not far from the city that has already experienced somewhat of a jump in value over the past 24 months but will continue to rise. It's not that cheap to buy into any more. Not quite Fairfield/Alphington/Northcote, but an improvement on Preston and Coburg and close to the CDB.

Another area to look at is Sunshine. It was recently reported in the paper that experts expect a rise in property value of around 30% over the next 12 months. Yarraville (although already quite pricey) and Footscray will also be in for a decent rise in value over the next few years.

 

[Tim the Toolman]

I don't know where everyone is getting this 14k+ per square prices? What are you guys building the Taj Mahal?!?!

I built my dream home for exactly $8,108 per quare and that included:

- a triple size garage
- a double shower for his n hers (great with the water restrictions ), beautiful insitu spa to ensuite
- a stand alone home theatre with projector
- a massive alfresco including decking
- his n hers walk in robes
- 4 bedrooms plus study
- proper butler's pantry
- 3 bathrooms
- floorboards to all living areas
- customised kitchen with steam oven, self cleaning oven, microwave etc...
- driveway
- fully rendered house
- H class slab
- site costs including retaining wall
Did not include: Landscaping, fencing and curtains and the builder did make 25%+ margin on the job (trust me, I know my job cost control for builders). And I could've got the job done cheaper had I gone with a bigger builder but wouldn't have had the quality control that I got with a smaller builder.

Now I'm not bragging but I'm just pointing out that the scaremongers out there with this price per square crap are like dogs barking at the waves. As one of the posters' said, do your research and make sure you get priced in: e.g. carpet or other floor coverings, site costs - you will find in Melbourne there are a lot of new blocks available but require 'waffle pod' slabs due to fill that's been put in due to fall of land which is expensive to deal with.

I agree that Melbourne is very much out of touch for many home buyers, hell I had to move out to Berwick to get what I could afford but if you have 350k, you will be lucky to get land in the Eastern side less than 30k from the CBD. You either need to look west (swallow your pride) or move out on the great South-Eastern Carpark run.

Our major problem is the great Melbourne 2030 divide that Bracksy set up in which there are only 4 approved corridors in Melbourne (North, North West, West and South East) hence having no land for development in the East. This means the bubble will NEVER burst in the East, nor will it burst in the Middle to Inner suburbs as "God will not make any more land" as we say in the business.

The "wait and sees" looking for the bubble to burst will undoubtedly be very disappointed in the coming years as they see prices still out of reach and then looking at properties even further out from where they can afford now. As for renting, with high population growth and prices sky-rocketing, just be prepared to pay as much for rent as you would pay for a mortgage in an area that you won't want to live.

Welcome to the 21st Century!

 

[Tim the Toolman]

*If you wait a year there is likely to be some capital growth that you will have to pay (5% on 400K is 20K) ...if you go the IP (investment path) when/if you sell you pay tax on the 20K but you still have benefited from the kick up.

* When you are ready to go into your own home - flog the investment property ...you will get hit with tax but then it means you have a profit..

Moo's a very smart person!

My wife and I did this and got our dream home, our first owner occupier home together but our 3rd property together if you know what I mean?

Consider this: Use 5k of your own money and invest in shares or fixed interest, get a great capital growth of say 10% and you've made a whopping $500!!!! Now use that 5k to invest in a property that would have a market value of $300,000, look at capital growth of a lousy 4% and you've earned $12,000 on paper! What a difference in return on investment!

 

[bunsen burner]

I don't know where everyone is getting this 14k+ per square prices? What are you guys building the Taj Mahal?!?!

I built my dream home for exactly $8,108 per quare and that included:

- a triple size garage
- a double shower for his n hers (great with the water restrictions ), beautiful insitu spa to ensuite
- a stand alone home theatre with projector
- a massive alfresco including decking
- his n hers walk in robes
- 4 bedrooms plus study
- proper butler's pantry
- 3 bathrooms
- floorboards to all living areas
- customised kitchen with steam oven, self cleaning oven, microwave etc...
- driveway
- fully rendered house
- H class slab
- site costs including retaining wall
Did not include: Landscaping, fencing and curtains and the builder did make 25%+ margin on the job (trust me, I know my job cost control for builders).

That's pretty cheap. Few questions:

1. Did you ever consider doing owner builder? Given your occupation I assume you considered it but decided against? How come?

2. What's an H class slab?

3. How has the rendering stood up? Do you have double story (if so, have you got water/grout run? And did you put oxide in the render to make it coloured, or did you render and paint over the top?

4. Interior wall finishes - plaster or particle board?

 

[Moo]

What colour curtains? (I just want to be part of the discussion)

 

[Tim the Toolman]

That's pretty cheap. Few questions:

1. Did you ever consider doing owner builder? Given your occupation I assume you considered it but decided against? How come?

2. What's an H class slab?

3. How has the rendering stood up? Do you have double story (if so, have you got water/grout run? And did you put oxide in the render to make it coloured, or did you render and paint over the top?

4. Interior wall finishes - plaster or particle board?

Answers:

1) You will never get finance as an owner occupier. Since the Warranty Insurance crisis a few years ago the laws were changed to stop owner occupiers getting warranty insurance to build a house hence you cannot obtain finance without warranty insurance. Warranty insurance basically guarantees the completion of a home and is compulsory in all states which privatised the insurance except for Queensland where it is managed by the Government - go Queensland! All other states are at the mercy of the usual mercenary insurance companies with only 2 underwriters providing insurance in Victoria!

2) There are 6 different levels of slabs - A Class: basically perfect and very rare, I have seen 3 instances in 20 years and one was an ex-display village carpark where the rock provided perfect footing; S Class for 'Slightly Reactive' or as we call it "Sandy Soil" which is found near some coastal areas and used to be prominent on the Mornington Peninsula building areas; M Class for 'Moderately Reactive' or as we call it "InterMediate" which used to be common around the Eastern side of the Yarra; H Class for 'Highly Reactive' Soil and we call it "Hazardous", this is basically usually because of clay in the soil hindering finding a founding depth until you get to the better soil a little deaper, used to be common North and West of the Yarra and used to require a deeper footing but because of fill placed in sites these days is more common all around Melbourne and then you have the dreaded P Class for the "Problem" site and this can vary on fill, toxins in the soil and other nasties. Today with the H class becoming more prevalent, developers are providing compaction reports to help the engineers design what's known as a waffle-pod slab which reduces the cost of footings yet provides stable foundation for such a site.

3) My fully rendered SINGLE storey house was done with a masonry walling system provided by James Hardie called CMX. It was released a few years ago and I was trialling it to ensure my builders knew how to work with it for future sales (it would cost the same price as brick veneer once you've deleted the expensive brickies and bricks) but alas James Hardie pulled the product as it was accounting for about 10% of their promotion budget for a 1% share of their market. Hence James Hardie have gone back to alternative cladding systems and the ol' Blueboard is the product of choice for render of double storey houses in particular. The product was basically a back render system over a very precise stud frame and the render painted on was pre-coloured and I still have heaps left over if required.

5) Your question about the interior walls is interesting, I assume you're asking whether I used the water-proof particle board and sound-proof plasters throughout - in short No. I utilised standard CSR plasterboard throughout the house with the usual water-proof and fire-proof plastering where required. I did consider the sound-proof product for the home theatre but as this room is so far from the bedrooms I saved my dollars and spent them on the actual home theatre speakers etc... I only utilised swish cornices and doors to living areas and stuck to low-end looking product i.e. 57mm cornicing, flush panel doors; to all other areas.

I cringe the price per square question as I included many external items in my estimation but seeing somebody else raise it, I answered and criticised it. When you are looking at a price-per-square question for a builder don't expect any external or site costs to be placed in the answer as how can you price soil removal, fencing, driveway, landscaping in your 'per squares'?

 

[Tim the Toolman]

What colour curtains? (I just want to be part of the discussion)

Camel shades with Brown block-outs. Very effective, especially on a 40degree day like today!

 

[bunsen burner]

Answers:

1) You will never get finance as an owner occupier. Since the Warranty Insurance crisis a few years ago the laws were changed to stop owner occupiers getting warranty insurance to build a house hence you cannot obtain finance without warranty insurance. Warranty insurance basically guarantees the completion of a home and is compulsory in all states which privatised the insurance except for Queensland where it is managed by the Government - go Queensland! All other states are at the mercy of the usual mercenary insurance companies with only 2 underwriters providing insurance in Victoria!

Fair enough, that makes sense. If you could have borrowed money and done owner/builder, would have you done?

2) There are 6 different levels of slabs - A Class: basically perfect and very rare, I have seen 3 instances in 20 years and one was an ex-display village carpark where the rock provided perfect footing; S Class for 'Slightly Reactive' or as we call it "Sandy Soil" which is found near some coastal areas and used to be prominent on the Mornington Peninsula building areas; M Class for 'Moderately Reactive' or as we call it "InterMediate" which used to be common around the Eastern side of the Yarra; H Class for 'Highly Reactive' Soil and we call it "Hazardous", this is basically usually because of clay in the soil hindering finding a founding depth until you get to the better soil a little deaper, used to be common North and West of the Yarra and used to require a deeper footing but because of fill placed in sites these days is more common all around Melbourne and then you have the dreaded P Class for the "Problem" site and this can vary on fill, toxins in the soil and other nasties. Today with the H class becoming more prevalent, developers are providing compaction reports to help the engineers design what's known as a waffle-pod slab which reduces the cost of footings yet provides stable foundation for such a site.

Are footings expensive? i.e. Say if you have a 15 degree sloping block and rathern excavate to make flat ground to put a slab on, you have a raised slab (one the natural ground for a while but as the land falls away the slab is suspended).

3) My fully rendered SINGLE storey house was done with a masonry walling system provided by James Hardie called CMX. It was released a few years ago and I was trialling it to ensure my builders knew how to work with it for future sales (it would cost the same price as brick veneer once you've deleted the expensive brickies and bricks) but alas James Hardie pulled the product as it was accounting for about 10% of their promotion budget for a 1% share of their market. Hence James Hardie have gone back to alternative cladding systems and the ol' Blueboard is the product of choice for render of double storey houses in particular. The product was basically a back render system over a very precise stud frame and the render painted on was pre-coloured and I still have heaps left over if required.

Ok, let me get this right (because I know FA about this sort of thing) - your house is not made out of brick?

I cringe the price per square question as I included many external items in my estimation but seeing somebody else raise it, I answered and criticised it. When you are looking at a price-per-square question for a builder don't expect any external or site costs to be placed in the answer as how can you price soil removal, fencing, driveway, landscaping in your 'per squares'?

I always cringe at price psqm anyway. Actually, I just cringe at builders - most of them are rip off merchants.

I'm doing owner builder as soon as my DA gets approved. I just wants to get some different perspectives and experiences. Thanks.

 

[pazza]

6 weeks after moving into this place, and I am glad I bought when I did, as there is no way I would have afforded to do it right now or in the future.

 

[Tim the Toolman]

Fair enough, that makes sense. If you could have borrowed money and done owner/builder, would have you done?

I still would've done one through a builder because of indemnity and warranty insurance and besides that, look at my User Name! I AM TIM THE TOOLMAN - the house would not have lasted 12 months before falling down! I have built 3 homes through builders and let them make full profit on the house each time, in fact in Tassie, particularly Hobart where I built a speculative home, the builders there disclose profit and I am totally comfortable with that as I made 3-times as much as he did when I sold it.


Are footings expensive? i.e. Say if you have a 15 degree sloping block and rathern excavate to make flat ground to put a slab on, you have a raised slab (one the natural ground for a while but as the land falls away the slab is suspended).

It's not the footings that are the problem here, it's the fall of land. A 15 degree fall, would equate to around what over the building area? Because I don't know whether the fall is sideways or front/back I can't answer the question. If it's sideways you could just have the garage lower/higher etc... or look at split levels. Otherwise you will need to allow probably 15k for site cut but get it done yourself, not through the builder and whatever you do, don't go for a particle board floor and go stumps as the 5-star costs will kill you if the site costs don't.

Ok, let me get this right (because I know FA about this sort of thing) - your house is not made out of brick?

No it's a masonry walling system which cost exactly the same price as brick veneer but the whole house just looks rendered.

I always cringe at price psqm anyway. Actually, I just cringe at builders - most of them are rip off merchants.

Well that's a general statement isn't it? I will tell you this, there are ripoff builders and good builders. A lot of the top 10 builders are very expensive when you weigh it up because they have massive overheads such as marketing, advertising, display home management, staffing etc.... They have massive buying power but you will pay the same price as anyone else because of their fixed costs. You want my honest appraisal and as a Sales Manager for a Top 4 Builder with experience as National BDM for Australia's largest building franchise and Sales Manager with another Top 10 Builder here it is: there is no project builder cheaper than any other. If you compare apples to apples you will come up within 1+/-% tolerance in price between them all. The cheapest builder in town is the Father/Son outfit that works out of the back of their car but you won't get the variance in plans that you get with the bigger builders whom utilise over capitalised/decored display homes to get you in.

I'm doing owner builder as soon as my DA gets approved. I just wants to get some different perspectives and experiences. Thanks.

Good luck, you'll need it as an OB!

 

[Tim the Toolman]

You'll have to read the whole quote for my comments. As an old fart I don't know how to seperate certain quotes to respond like you whipper snappers out there in E-land!