Can we win the thing in 07?

[mad-saint-guy]

Your defence wasn't top 3. They were top 3 for points against, but it doesn't make them in the best three defences.

What does make a defence good then?

You played a lot of games at Telstra Dome and a couple in Tassie, which significantly lower the scores made against you over the year.

Why would that make any difference? TD would probably be the highest-scoring venue because there is never any wing/rain and Tassie is basically the same as Subi.

Your defence creates nothing going forward. Gram can run, but can't kick. You miss Aussie Jones, a lot.

First of all, we had five defenders finish top 10 in our best and fairest (Gram 2nd, S.Fisher 3rd, Goddard 6th, Hudghton 8th, Voss 10th).

Jason Gram averaged 20.7 disposals, 5.3 marks, 6.5 long kicks, 4.7 rebound 50's, 3.8 inside 50's, 1.4 clearances, 3.4 1%ers, 5 bounces and just 3 errors per game. Seems pretty bloody good to me.

Sam Fisher also averaged 20.7 disposals, 7 marks, 3.5 long kicks, 4.6 rebound 50's, 1.8 inside 50's, 3.6 1%ers, 2.7 bounces and 2.5 errors. Damn good for a tall defender.

Leigh Fisher averaged 17 disposals, 6 marks, 2.4 rebound 50's and 4 1%ers.

Brendon Goddard averaged 22 disposals, 7 long kicks, 8 marks, 3.5 tackles, 4 rebound 50's, 3.5 inside 50's, 4 1%ers and 2.5 errors. He will play midfield next year though.

You can't say that they aren't outstanding stats for a group of rebounding defenders. Our defence was the only reason we made the finals in 2006. Our midfield was shot after Hayes went down and our forward line was inconsistent and injury-riddled.

Neitz and McDonald both just had AWESOME seasons, Neitz hasn't played that well since about 2003, and McDonald was all Australian. Bruce has shown no signs of being past his best, and Robertson was injured throughout all of 2006, so it's hard to gauge where he's at, considering he kicked nearly 80 goals in 2005.

McDonald, yes. Neitz was far too inconsistent. 5 games with less than two goals could never be considered "brilliant" for a FF. Bruce will still be very good for a couple of seasons but he's geting to the stage where they start to slow down. Robbo is a gun, but needs to get fit again.

Hayes won't do a full pre-season, it will affect his impact, unfortunately that just happens, that's assuming he actually makes a full recovery. Maguire will struggle big time.

Hayes is already in the gym and said that he would've been able to play finals, but it would've been very risky. He will do a full pre season but he's probably lost a bit of speed. Goose shouldn't play before the split round. He came down to Warrnambool for the Hampden League Grand Final and he looked like a skeleton. Should be right for finals though.

Dunn won't even play much for Melbourne this year, Miller will be CHF so onyl if Robbo goes down with injury will Dunn get a game imo. IMO Yze should be dropped if his form warrants it.

Fair enough.

If we finish 4th we'll make a prelim, because we'll get t play at least one game at the G, and we won't lose there. That's a fact.

I doubt you will finish fourth and you are not unbeatable at the G.

Melbourne have one key advantage no other club can boast - we are next to unbeatable at the G. And if you claim we'll make top 4, I'd be counting on us to at least make the prelim.

Again. Not unbeatable. This year St Kilda should've beaten you twice very easily, but a combination of deplorable goal-kicking, Neitz going crazy and multiple injuries during the games ust stopped us.

Last year you weren't so unbeatable at the G. With a full list except for Rivers St Kilda thrashed you by 88 points. Although that's just about the only time St Kilda have had a full list as well.

With Melbourne, it's a matter of consistency and fitness. We have plenty of imrpovement left in Sylvia, Moloney, P.Johnson, C.Johnson, Bate, Bartram, Jones and even McLean (even though he's already elite as ****).

Yes, they will improve but apart from McLean and perhaps Bate and Moloney none of them are match-winners and you got alot of aging players as well, so whatever improvement they make will probably be countered by the old guys slowing down.

I'd like to hear exactly how St Kilda have fixed their midfield depth issues too? And ruck? What, getting Gardiner will fix your ruck issues? You can see him beating the likles of Jeff White, Aaron Sandilands, Peter Everitt or Dean Cox?

St Kilda midfield of 2007
Starting midfield: Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Baker, Montagna, Goddard
Part-time: Harvey, Birss, McQualter, X.Clarke, Gram, Milne, Riewoldt, Thompson, Gwilt, R.Clarke

Not perfect but as long as we keep both of Hayes and Ball fit we'll be right.

Gardiner won't beat Cox, Lade and Sandilands but he'll be able to at least compete with them and should beat the second-tier, decent ruckman that have flogged us for so long - Hille, White Hale, Hudson, Street etc...

St Kilda for most of 2006
B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, L.Fisher
HB: Gram, Maguire, Goddard
C: Fiora, Dal Santo, Montagna
HF: Voss, Riewoldt, Ball
F: Milne, Gehrig, Schwarze

Foll: Blake, Harvey, Baker
Int: Ackland, Peckett, Powell, Thompson

St Kilda team for most of 2007
B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, L.Fisher
HB: Gram, Koschitzke, X.Clarke
C: Baker, Hayes, Montagna
HF: Harvey, Riewoldt, Goddard
F: Hamill, Gehrig, Milne

Foll: Gardiner, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Birss, Brooks, R.Clarke, McQualter

Emg: Ackland, Thompson, Voss

2007 looks MUCH better than 2006. What improvements have Melbourne made? The top teams are constantly changing to improve. Sydney traded for a top ruckman and have got rid of 7 players. Freo have traded heavily to get a talanted forward and experienced hard-man. The Bulldogs acquired a Brownlow medallist and a potential CHF. West Coast are an exception due to their amazing depth of young talent. As guys like Selwood, Rosa, Butler, Staker, Graham etc develop there's a heap of improvement already and there aren't many old guys on the slide.

 

[demonfan9]

Again. Not unbeatable. This year St Kilda should've beaten you twice very easily, but a combination of deplorable goal-kicking, Neitz going crazy and multiple injuries during the games ust stopped us.

Should've, would've, could've, but didn't.

We were 11 from 12 at the MCG this year and 28 from 36 since 2004. Not unbeatable, no one is, but a very good record and probably the equivalent of some of the top interstate clubs at their own home ground.

Yes, they will improve but apart from McLean and perhaps Bate and Moloney none of them are match-winners and you got alot of aging players as well, so whatever improvement they make will probably be countered by the old guys slowing down.

It's pretty ridiculous to say that the development from the young players will be balanced by the slowing down of the ageing players. It's more appropriate to say that the younger players are actually pushing the senior players out of the side. Here is a list of our oldest players at the club:

31 Neitz
30 Bizzell
30 Brown
30 McDonald
29 White
29 Holland
29 Ward
29 Pickett
29 Yze
28 Nicholson
28 Motlop

Neitz had his best season since 2003, booting 68 goals for the season, including 7 in two finals matches. After a slowish start, he finished the year off with a bang, averaging 4.1 goals in his last eight matches. Bizzell didn't play any games at all and Brown only managed 7. Their absence did not hurt us, as guys like Green, Johnson, Ward and Bell covered them more than adequately.

McDonald had his best season ever, winning All-Australian and Best & Fairest awards, no to mention laying the most tackles ever recorded in a single season of the VFL/AFL. White is still averaging 20 hitouts a game, and that is with the extra game time given to Jamar. His body is still durable, as he hasn't missed a game since 2003.

Holland also had his best year at the club, this time in defence. He was beaten at stages during the season, but overall he performed well. Once Ferguson is fit, he will probably take the third tall role down back. Ward was another who had his best season. His second half of the season especially was terrific, and he covered the absence of Brown, who generally provides us with a lot of rebound.

Pickett was inconsistant but definately added a spark to the team. Early in the season, everyone was saying that the team walked taller with him in our side, which was true. He is still an important player and has plenty left in the tank. Yze has been talked about a lot and overall he was very disappointing. He is one senior player who is really past his best, however he is definately replaceable. He is no longer one of our key players who must play well for us to win. Nicholson didn't play a game and Motlop only managed 3, and both have been delisted. Neither of them will be missed in the senior side.

Neitz, McDonald, White, Holland, Ward and Pickett and all still playing good football. Yze should be on the fringe of the team. Bizzell and Brown don't have much of a future and Nicholson and Motlop are already gone.

We do have a lot of young players who are ready to step in to the side. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, these young guys is where our improvement will come from. We didn't find it necessary to trade for another experienced player, when we've got one of the best recruiting managers in the league who has picked some of the brightest young talents in the country.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

It's pretty ridiculous to say that the development from the young players will be balanced by the slowing down of the ageing players. It's more appropriate to say that the younger players are actually pushing the senior players out of the side. Here is a list of our oldest players at the club:

31 Neitz
30 Bizzell
30 Brown
30 McDonald
29 White
29 Holland
29 Ward
29 Pickett
29 Yze
28 Nicholson
28 Motlop

But won't those guys still get a game? You're not going to drop Neitz, McDonald, White, Pickett etc and it seems you're best young players are already regulars. McLean, Bartram, Sylvia, Jones, Bate etc are all playing close to full seasons. Who else will come into the side, pushing the old guys out?

To have 10 players (not including the retired Nicholson) 28 or over is pretty bad for a team's future. Look at some of the finals teams this year (excluding all retirees)
West Coast 4
Sydney 5 (regarded to be an old team on it's last legs)
Adelaide 8 (see Sydney)
Fremantle 3
St Kilda 6

In 3 years, most of the players you lised will be gone. Which players that aren't already in the team will replace them?

 

[StingaArmstrong]

But won't those guys still get a game? You're not going to drop Neitz, McDonald, White, Pickett etc and it seems you're best young players are already regulars. McLean, Bartram, Sylvia, Jones, Bate etc are all playing close to full seasons. Who else will come into the side, pushing the old guys out?

To have 10 players (not including the retired Nicholson) 28 or over is pretty bad for a team's future. Look at some of the finals teams this year (excluding all retirees)
West Coast 4
Sydney 5 (regarded to be an old team on it's last legs)
Adelaide 8 (see Sydney)
Fremantle 3
St Kilda 6

In 3 years, most of the players you lised will be gone. Which players that aren't already in the team will replace them?

In 2-3 years, i would think this year's crop of draftees will be ready to step into the side, so that is who is going to replace them. Our last 3-4 years of drafting have proven to be excellent, so we can rely on this year's crop to be just as good. Also we have last years draftees, who were very young that will be maturing at that time. Anyway, half of those players have already essentially been replaced and aren't regulars in the side.

Our younger players like Dunn, Bell, Bartram, Bate, Sylvia, McLean, Miller, Rivers, Moloney, Jones, Chris Johnson have not peaked as players...and i would think Jones, Bate and Sylvia have a lot of improvement in them. I think in particular their fitness will improve, thus being able to play better for longer.

Our improvement will come from younger players maturing, middle age players peaking, and less reliance on the veterans, who will still contribute.

 

[lost_20]

You can't win a flag from outside the Top 4. Seeing as Freo, St.Kilda and the Dogs have improved their list from 2006 and we haven't, it's going to mighty hard.

But we can beat anyone on our day.

Well yeah you can win from outside the top 4 Crows did unfortunatly. They were in 5th place in 97 or 98 can't remember which. I do agree though that bulldogs have improved their list and I would tip them over any other victoria team. Good luck to melbourne though

 

[demonfan9]

But won't those guys still get a game? You're not going to drop Neitz, McDonald, White, Pickett etc and it seems you're best young players are already regulars. McLean, Bartram, Sylvia, Jones, Bate etc are all playing close to full seasons. Who else will come into the side, pushing the old guys out?

To have 10 players (not including the retired Nicholson) 28 or over is pretty bad for a team's future. Look at some of the finals teams this year (excluding all retirees)
West Coast 4
Sydney 5 (regarded to be an old team on it's last legs)
Adelaide 8 (see Sydney)
Fremantle 3
St Kilda 6

In 3 years, most of the players you lised will be gone. Which players that aren't already in the team will replace them?

Not all of those players will be getting a game though. Motlop and Nicholson are already gone. Brown and Bizzell will probably join them next year. Yze is on the fringe of the team now and Holland and Ward's spots aren't guaranteed either. That leaves just Neitz, White, McDonald and Pickett as regulars in the 28+ group.

Which young players will be pushing them out, that weren't already doing so this year?

Paul Johnson (2 games in 2006)
Matthew Warnock (2 games)
Ryan Ferguson (3 games)
Brent Moloney (7 games)
Nathan Jones (8 games)
Chris Johnson (9 games)
Lynden Dunn (11 games)
Daniel Bell (12 games)

Not to mention the likes of McLean, Sylvia, Bate, Bartram, Jamar, Miller, Rivers and Davey who are naturally gaining more experience and confidence with every senior game they play.

This whole concept is called 'natural development'. We've got about 14-15 players under the age of 23 years old who are capable, in my opinion, of playing full seasons.

 

[dutchy12]

This Mad Saints Guy has no idea what he is talking about. The saints premiship window has past everyone knows that. Under world figure Gardiner is not going to fix anything. The fact of the matter is that Melbourne> St Kilda in all facists. Youth, premiships won, expierence.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Which young players will be pushing them out, that weren't already doing so this year?

Paul Johnson (2 games in 2006)
Matthew Warnock (2 games)
Ryan Ferguson (3 games)
Brent Moloney (7 games)
Nathan Jones (8 games)
Chris Johnson (9 games)
Lynden Dunn (11 games)
Daniel Bell (12 games)

Not to mention the likes of McLean, Sylvia, Bate, Bartram, Jamar, Miller, Rivers and Davey who are naturally gaining more experience and confidence with every senior game they play.

This whole concept is called 'natural development'. We've got about 14-15 players under the age of 23 years old who are capable, in my opinion, of playing full seasons.

Johnson - Better option than Jamar but won't really add alot
Warnock - No idea
Ferguson - Will be competing with Holland for a spot. Not alot of difference between the two (in terms of impact, anyway)
Moloney - Absolute gun. He is one guy that will have a big impact.
Jones - Agree that he will add a fair bit to the team in the future, but was already starting to keep his spot anyway
Johnson - Don't know enough about him to comment
Dunn - Can't see him getting a regular spot
Bell - No idea

From that I see one big addition (Moloney), four possible regulars with minor roles (Jones, Johnson, Johnson, Ferguson) and lots of backup. The players mentioned might have a fair impact in a couple of years, but they won't win you a premiership any time soon.

This Mad Saints Guy has no idea what he is talking about. The saints premiship window has past everyone knows that. Under world figure Gardiner is not going to fix anything. The fact of the matter is that Melbourne> St Kilda in all facists. Youth, premiships won, expierence.

First of all, what are facists? Second, why do you think this non-existent window has closed? Most of our list and best players are under 23. The few older guys in the team will be easily replaced in the next few years (Harvey - Pick 9, Thompson - McQualter, Gehrig - Watts, Hudghton - Gilbert, Voss - L.Fisher, Hamill - Doesn't play).

 

[StingaArmstrong]

First of all, what are facists? Second, why do you think this non-existent window has closed? Most of our list and best players are under 23. The few older guys in the team will be easily replaced in the next few years (Harvey - Pick 9, Thompson - McQualter, Gehrig - Watts, Hudghton - Gilbert, Voss - L.Fisher, Hamill - Doesn't play).

Pick 9 = could be anything...
Watts = unproven, Dunn has done more than him
McQualter = Rubbish
Gilbert = who?
L.Fisher = not too bad, but Voss is hardly a key to St.Kilda
Hamill = correct

Seriously you have no idea, Dees will be just as good if not better than the Saints next year, your argument of us not improving our list is stupid, as all you are saying in the quote above is that you are replacing your old players with your young players. We have already done this by debuting several young players during 2006 who will be much better for the experience and will be fitter stronger and better next year.

 

[Stylus]

Yeah sorry, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Your plan is to replace Harvey with pick 9? Nice one! Surely you don't need a list of all the top ten picks who have failed in recent history...

 

[StingaArmstrong]

Yeah sorry, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Your plan is to replace Harvey with pick 9? Nice one! Surely you don't need a list of all the top ten picks who have failed in recent history...

Yeah, wasn't Caydn Beetham was pick 9 wasn't he

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Yeah sorry, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Your plan is to replace Harvey with pick 9? Nice one! Surely you don't need a list of all the top ten picks who have failed in recent history...

Harvs is irreplaceable, but it's the best we can do. If we can snare one of Proud/Selwood I'll be very happy for them to take Harvs' spot. Won't be as good, but you don't come along too many Robert Harveys.

Pick 9 = could be anything... There's a very good chance it will be a quality midfielder
Watts = unproven, Dunn has done more than him Watts has all the tools to become a quality forward. Has similar aggression to Hamill and is 13cm tall. Hopefully this won't see him injured regularly though
McQualter = Rubbish Ever seen him play?
Gilbert = who? Isn't a certainty but played well for Casey and in his couple of games with St Kilda he did nothing wrong
L.Fisher = not too bad, but Voss is hardly a key to St.Kilda Correct. Voss is a fill-in player but is still important and we have a good replacement
Hamill = correct Unfortunately...

 

[StingaArmstrong]

McQualter = Rubbish Ever seen him play

Yes, hence my opinion of him being rubbish.

 

[Bring-Back-Powell]

McQualter = Rubbish Ever seen him play?

Surely you could think of someone better than him in your 2007 line up

 

[dspeed]

Watts has all the tools to become a quality forward. Has similar aggression to Hamill and is 13cm tall. Hopefully this won't see him injured regularly though

hehe

 

[kolchak]

Melbourne are always hard to pick, they seem to have fantastic winning streaks, then fall over teams they should beat. Should be a finals contender again, and in contention for the top four.

Good young list as well.

The reliance on Neitz is a problem. What are the forward options next year, are there any new KP kids coming through?

Just on a few other posts here by Saints and Collingwood supporters, I would have my money on Melbourne before those clubs next year.

 

[Supermercado]

When did this become the St. Kilda propaganda board? Why are we debating with underlings?

All these questions and more will not be answered.

 

[rick James]

Melbourne are always hard to pick, they seem to have fantastic winning streaks, then fall over teams they should beat. Should be a finals contender again, and in contention for the top four.

Good young list as well.

The reliance on Neitz is a problem. What are the forward options next year, are there any new KP kids coming through?

Just on a few other posts here by Saints and Collingwood supporters, I would have my money on Melbourne before those clubs next year.

Forwardline shouldn't change a great deal, except big Paul Johnson will probably get a gig in the pocket as resting ruckman, which is handy as he's great at ground level and an absolutely huge unit.

Lynden Dunn will get more experience, but needs more muscle before he can really hold down CHF.

Matthew Newton may get a chance as well, recruited same year as Bate and Dunn, a bit smaller muscle wise though - but he's a very big framed lad and is being groomed for the full forward spot post-neitz I think. Can kick and mark quite well.

Brad Miller is still only 23, and he should hopefully get a full year at CHF. We're much better with him there. Robbo should be fit again.

I dont think Neitz being our primary goalkicker is a problem unless he gets double or triple teamed. That doesn't happen much anymore because Robbo, Davey, Pickett, Yze are too dangeorus to leave on their own.

Neitz kicked 68 for the year, a very good return and honestly his best season since 03 imo. Moving much better and still one of the strongest blokes in the AFL by far.

 

[pafc4life]

Brad Miller is still only 23, and he should hopefully get a full year at CHF. We're much better with him there.

He looked great in the semi final. with Miller leading up, Neitz and Robbo deep and Pickett, Davey and Yze lurking you guys have the most potent forward line in the comp

 

[davey_magik]

He looked great in the semi final. with Miller leading up, Neitz and Robbo deep and Pickett, Davey and Yze lurking you guys have the most potent forward line in the comp

I agree there, but we still have some issues that need fixing, such as the fitness in our midfield which Willo should help out with and our defence being reliable for the whole year.
Above all, we can't afford to have off days like we had against Carlton x 2.