Expansion Canberra

[speedpeck23]

There's a very real chance that the AFL doesn't expand past 20 teams. Or at least not for a very long time.

So what would you consider as the NT being "represented" if they don't get a full-time team?

Fair enough question but I'm not even going to try and guess. Anything could happen. Who knows if and when the AFL would really get serious about a 20th team. We all like to contemplate the possibilities because we all love footy and want to see it grow.

The thing that strikes me is that the AFL is heavily dependent on Government funding (State and Federal) for infrastructure in considering any new club . Clearly given the amount that the AFL itself must continue to put in to GC and Giants they are averse to any further commercial financial risk on another new club. You only have to look at the issues surrounding the Tassie Devils start up...they want to guarantee the whole thing will work.

Given the AFL need to have a collaborative relationship with Government they need to align their objectives at some level with Government policies. On a priority needs basis the NT is high on the list for the Federal Govt in terms of financing measures that can improve social outcomes for those NT communities. That doesn't get an AFL club up there but it opens the door to explore possibilities.

The complicating thing is that for both Canberra and NT the AFL will want GC and GWS to be well and truly established before they relinquish there second base ....ironically they probably won't want them to leave if they are successful in the long term.

ps... Your point about Tom Wills and Canberra is valid.....I think the AFL should utilize that reality as much as possible in promoting footy in Canberra.....Of course the Tom Wills story applies to many people and places around Australia and beyond ...Queensland, SA, Sydney......even Darwin..... Charles Darwin's son was in the same class as Tom Wills at Rugby school....Tom probably met his father !! Everything is connected...it's just degrees of separation.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I reckon it'd be easier for a few parties behind the scenes if United folded.

They're an expensive fly in the ointment for anyone interested in owning the men's team. If they were to fold the new owners would save themselves millions of dollars and have free rein to come in and do what they like without having to compromise to keep United and it's fans happy, and they can invest in their own women's team when they're ready.

Sad for United, win for the Capital Region Football Collective, APL, and the eventual owners of the men's team.

Would a mens team be brought in to Canberra without a womens team, when there is already a womens team (whether attached to a new mens team, or United)?

Its an incredibly bad look for the APL when they make a show of putting both leagues on the same level. It may be the financial reality, but the image could immediately lead to "misogyny" cries and so forth in the markets Australian sports, politics and businesses care about - Sydney and Melbourne.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Fair enough question but I'm not even going to try and guess. Anything could happen. Who knows if and when the AFL would really get serious about a 20th team. We all like to contemplate the possibilities because we all love footy and want to see it grow.

The thing that strikes me is that the AFL is heavily dependent on Government funding (State and Federal) for infrastructure in considering any new club . Clearly given the amount that the AFL itself must continue to put in to GC and Giants they are averse to any further commercial financial risk on another new club. You only have to look at the issues surrounding the Tassie Devils start up...they want to guarantee the whole thing will work.

Given the AFL need to have a collaborative relationship with Government they need to align their objectives at some level with Government policies. On a priority needs basis the NT is high on the list for the Federal Govt in terms of financing measures that can improve social outcomes for those NT communities. That doesn't get an AFL club up there but it opens the door to explore possibilities.

The complicating thing is that for both Canberra and NT the AFL will want GC and GWS to be well and truly established before they relinquish there second base ....ironically they probably won't want them to leave if they are successful in the long term.

ps... Your point about Tom Wills and Canberra is valid.....I think the AFL should utilize that reality as much as possible in promoting footy in Canberra.....Of course the Tom Wills story applies to many people and places around Australia and beyond ...Queensland, SA, Sydney......even Darwin..... Charles Darwin's son was in the same class as Tom Wills at Rugby school....Tom probably met his father !! Everything is connected...it's just degrees of separation.

Both the Canberra and NT options would need some government funding, but it will be vastly different how much.

In terms of regular funding, Canberra would likely just get the $2.85m the Giants are getting from the ACT. Maybe a bit more with inflation or to reflect the full-time status. But the amount of government funding that's already happening wouldn't rise too much for a Canberra team.

The NT needs $15m a year. I assume they're already paying $2-3m a year for three games, but that's still an annual increase of ~$12.5m every year.

The NT also has a new weather-proof stadium at the centre of its bid. At an estimated $735m. Manuka's upgrade is already happening regardless of us getting a 20th team.

So yes, the both teams with need government funding, but in the first 10 years, an NT team will need about $850m more of it.

 

[Bjo187]

Fair enough question but I'm not even going to try and guess. Anything could happen. Who knows if and when the AFL would really get serious about a 20th team. We all like to contemplate the possibilities because we all love footy and want to see it grow.

The thing that strikes me is that the AFL is heavily dependent on Government funding (State and Federal) for infrastructure in considering any new club . Clearly given the amount that the AFL itself must continue to put in to GC and Giants they are averse to any further commercial financial risk on another new club. You only have to look at the issues surrounding the Tassie Devils start up...they want to guarantee the whole thing will work.

Given the AFL need to have a collaborative relationship with Government they need to align their objectives at some level with Government policies. On a priority needs basis the NT is high on the list for the Federal Govt in terms of financing measures that can improve social outcomes for those NT communities. That doesn't get an AFL club up there but it opens the door to explore possibilities.

The complicating thing is that for both Canberra and NT the AFL will want GC and GWS to be well and truly established before they relinquish there second base ....ironically they probably won't want them to leave if they are successful in the long term.

ps... Your point about Tom Wills and Canberra is valid.....I think the AFL should utilize that reality as much as possible in promoting footy in Canberra.....Of course the Tom Wills story applies to many people and places around Australia and beyond ...Queensland, SA, Sydney......even Darwin..... Charles Darwin's son was in the same class as Tom Wills at Rugby school....Tom probably met his father !! Everything is connected...it's just degrees of separation.

I feel like the promotion of Tom wills as the inventor of the game was swept under the carpet early days, because he turned into an alcoholic and committed suicide.

Back in those times people would have been extremely judgemental, otherwise the Australian football council would have pushed heavily that he was born in NSW (now the ACT), to get buy in from NSW (which at various times they were getting really big buy in, before a conserted effort by the local Sydney media and rugby mob to kill the games growth, which is still happening 150 years later).

I also think the same thing might have been a consideration when leaving out that Australian football had influence from the aboriginal sport of mangrook. That definitely wouldn't have been trendy with the colonial elite of the time, across Australia. This is something the AFL should lean into now though, to attract aboriginal kids from nsw and qld to footy, over the English game of rugby. Sell it to them as it's their game, they have been playing a similar form for centuries and this might get good buy in from a cultural pride standpoint.

 

[Badger17]

Would a mens team be brought in to Canberra without a womens team, when there is already a womens team (whether attached to a new mens team, or United)?

Generally they launch the men's team first, then launch the women's team down the track when both the club and the women's A-league is ready for it.

Macarthur still don't have a women's team for example. It really depends of the financial state of the club.

Its an incredibly bad look for the APL when they make a show of putting both leagues on the same level. It may be the financial reality, but the image could immediately lead to "misogyny" cries and so forth in the markets Australian sports, politics and businesses care about - Sydney and Melbourne.

Any accusations of misogyny aimed at the APL would be misplaced and vindictive.

United have been mismanaged forever and taken for granted by Capital Football and the government for years. Capital Football has been dipping their hands into registration fees to fund United since the beginning, and frankly, they've totally failed to build a fanbase of any significance.

There's solid, but admittedly unconfirmed, talk that Capital Football have been trying to gouge some of their losses back in their talks with prospective investors as well. If true they only have themselves to blame if the team folds.

The government are jokers as well. They're always going on about "inclusion" and promoting women's sport, but they can't find a measly couple hundred grand to keep United kicking until a new owner can be found, but seemingly have a blank cheque book for a couple teams from Sydney to play their lowest drawing games here. . .

The APL aren't completely blameless themselves, having badly mismanaged the A-leagues and the knock on effects that's caused, but if anybody should be blamed for United current struggles it's Capital Football and United themselves.

 

[Badger17]

Both the Canberra and NT options would need some government funding, but it will be vastly different how much.

In terms of regular funding, Canberra would likely just get the $2.85m the Giants are getting from the ACT. Maybe a bit more with inflation or to reflect the full-time status. But the amount of government funding that's already happening wouldn't rise too much for a Canberra team.

The NT needs $15m a year. I assume they're already paying $2-3m a year for three games, but that's still an annual increase of ~$12.5m every year.

The NT also has a new weather-proof stadium at the centre of its bid. At an estimated $735m. Manuka's upgrade is already happening regardless of us getting a 20th team.

So yes, the both teams with need government funding, but in the first 10 years, an NT team will need about $850m more of it.

$15mil a year and a $735mil stadium is being conservative as well.

 

[speedpeck23]

Both the Canberra and NT options would need some government funding, but it will be vastly different how much.

In terms of regular funding, Canberra would likely just get the $2.85m the Giants are getting from the ACT. Maybe a bit more with inflation or to reflect the full-time status. But the amount of government funding that's already happening wouldn't rise too much for a Canberra team.

The NT needs $15m a year. I assume they're already paying $2-3m a year for three games, but that's still an annual increase of ~$12.5m every year.

The NT also has a new weather-proof stadium at the centre of its bid. At an estimated $735m. Manuka's upgrade is already happening regardless of us getting a 20th team.

So yes, the both teams with need government funding, but in the first 10 years, an NT team will need about $850m more of it.

Agree with all that.....but to get Govt. financial support you also have to include justifying the expense in relation to community need.

I'm not favouring one over the other but govt funding for Canberra would largely be about the necessity of improving sports facilities...so more about lifestyle and health I guess.

NT on the other hand would be much broader, more about the significant social issues at multiple levels in the community. Given that you would have to reasonably expect on going govt backing for years...for the NT. To an extent like the Federal Govt has stated it will spend 600 million on a PNG team in the NRL over the next 10 years. Not sure what happens after that. Just noticed that the PNG govt only an hour ago announced $150 mill for an NRL village....

So does the AFL look at the $600 mill given by the Federal Govt to the NRL plan in PNG and say we can do something like that in NT . Of course the AFL would have to justify how having an AFL club representing the community in Canberra or NT could benefit the community. The AFL would also have to consider the commercial implication for the game and the AFL competition in both cases.

 

[speedpeck23]

I feel like the promotion of Tom wills as the inventor of the game was swept under the carpet early days, because he turned into an alcoholic and committed suicide.

Back in those times people would have been extremely judgemental, otherwise the Australian football council would have pushed heavily that he was born in NSW (now the ACT), to get buy in from NSW (which at various times they were getting really big buy in, before a conserted effort by the local Sydney media and rugby mob to kill the games growth, which is still happening 150 years later).

I also think the same thing might have been a consideration when leaving out that Australian football had influence from the aboriginal sport of mangrook. That definitely wouldn't have been trendy with the colonial elite of the time, across Australia. This is something the AFL should lean into now though, to attract aboriginal kids from nsw and qld to footy, over the English game of rugby. Sell it to them as it's their game, they have been playing a similar form for centuries and this might get good buy in from a cultural pride standpoint.

Agree, the Tom Wills story is epic. It gives a certain credence to Australian Rules being the only true national game and the links to Indigenous Australian communities is massive for the AFL.

The question is how to use the story effectively. Tom Wills Oval in Olympic Park Sydney is great......The name stands alongside Dawn Fraser Avenue , Edwin Flack Ave, Australia Ave.

I think it's a slow build over time.... They should have something at Manuka Oval...maybe the Tom Wills Gates...!!

 

[Canberra Pear]

Agree with all that.....but to get Govt. financial support you also have to include justifying the expense in relation to community need.

I'm not favouring one over the other but govt funding for Canberra would largely be about the necessity of improving sports facilities...so more about lifestyle and health I guess.

NT on the other hand would be much broader, more about the significant social issues at multiple levels in the community. Given that you would have to reasonably expect on going govt backing for years...for the NT. To an extent like the Federal Govt has stated it will spend 600 million on a PNG team in the NRL over the next 10 years. Not sure what happens after that. Just noticed that the PNG govt only an hour ago announced $150 mill for an NRL village....

So does the AFL look at the $600 mill given by the Federal Govt to the NRL plan in PNG and say we can do something like that in NT . Of course the AFL would have to justify how having an AFL club representing the community in Canberra or NT could benefit the community. The AFL would also have to consider the commercial implication for the game and the AFL competition in both cases.

All of that hinges on the AFL securing a ridiculously large deal from the government.

The NT would benefit from an AFL team, but the funding for PNG has come from our foreign aid budget. It's harder to justify (from a geopolitical perspective) paying for an NT team. The NT needs to threaten to defect to China.

If the AFL manages to get the federal government to commit $800m over 10 years, then by all means, an NT team becomes a possibility.

But without that money, Canberra remains the much more obvious choice.

 

[Coolangatta]

All of that hinges on the AFL securing a ridiculously large deal from the government.

The NT would benefit from an AFL team, but the funding for PNG has come from our foreign aid budget. It's harder to justify (from a geopolitical perspective) paying for an NT team. The NT needs to threaten to defect to China.

If the AFL manages to get the federal government to commit $800m over 10 years, then by all means, an NT team becomes a possibility.

But without that money, Canberra remains the much more obvious choice.

Even then, where’s the money coming from after the 10 years? An NT side isn’t standing on its own two feet for another 50 years, if ever.

 

[speedpeck23]

Even then, where’s the money coming from after the 10 years? An NT side isn’t standing on its own two feet for another 50 years, if ever.

Who knows how everything looks going forward. Certainly the AFL already has 3 matches per year in NT ...and has for some time. Interesting to note that the Federal Govt earlier this month committed $842 mill over 6 years to help indigenous communities in NT. Also ironically a Queensland mining magnate only the other day made a $57 mill private donation to an Aussie Rules Football program in Central Australia. Who knows why this happened...? Clearly if there were ever to be an NT AFL team it would need a unique structure in terms of financial support.

The Tassie team has received widespread support for its new AFL club... 200,000 members....the emotive component is huge..... most of the income for Tassie Devils will come from broadcast rights.... small stadium, easy access locally, can play anytime of week...in other words it will look good on screen...play it Monday nights it will be huge for ratings.

NT would not be dissimilar. But agree it would need strong Govt support. The AFL can't afford not to consider it. Of course we already know the NT Govt promoted the idea sometime ago. See how the Devils go and take it from there.

 

[Coolangatta]

Who knows how everything looks going forward. Certainly the AFL already has 3 matches per year in NT ...and has for some time. Interesting to note that the Federal Govt earlier this month committed $842 mill over 6 years to help indigenous communities in NT. Also ironically a Queensland mining magnate only the other day made a $57 mill private donation to an Aussie Rules Football program in Central Australia. Who knows why this happened...? Clearly if there were ever to be an NT AFL team it would need a unique structure in terms of financial support.

The Tassie team has received widespread support for its new AFL club... 200,000 members....the emotive component is huge..... most of the income for Tassie Devils will come from broadcast rights.... small stadium, easy access locally, can play anytime of week...in other words it will look good on screen...play it Monday nights it will be huge for ratings.

NT would not be dissimilar. But agree it would need strong Govt support. The AFL can't afford not to consider it. Of course we already know the NT Govt promoted the idea sometime ago. See how the Devils go and take it from there.

Why the rush, though? Can’t we have more than 20 teams?

Trust me, NT will be seen by many as the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle if they do get up as team 20.

It would be great for them but a shame for Canberra as they’re probably never going to get a team if the NT gets in.

They will continue to be ignored and no one will be keen to expand past 20, especially for the ACT.

It really feels like now or never for them.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Who knows how everything looks going forward. Certainly the AFL already has 3 matches per year in NT ...and has for some time. Interesting to note that the Federal Govt earlier this month committed $842 mill over 6 years to help indigenous communities in NT. Also ironically a Queensland mining magnate only the other day made a $57 mill private donation to an Aussie Rules Football program in Central Australia. Who knows why this happened...? Clearly if there were ever to be an NT AFL team it would need a unique structure in terms of financial support.

The Tassie team has received widespread support for its new AFL club... 200,000 members....the emotive component is huge..... most of the income for Tassie Devils will come from broadcast rights.... small stadium, easy access locally, can play anytime of week...in other words it will look good on screen...play it Monday nights it will be huge for ratings.

NT would not be dissimilar. But agree it would need strong Govt support. The AFL can't afford not to consider it. Of course we already know the NT Govt promoted the idea sometime ago. See how the Devils go and take it from there.

Exactly. Who knows what will happen going forward.

Hopefully the NT's population can boom and put them in a better position for the next round of expansion after Team 20.

 

[Bjo187]

Also ironically a Queensland mining magnate only the other day made a $57 mill private donation to an Aussie Rules Football program in Central Australia. Who knows why this happened...? Clearly if there were ever to be an NT AFL team it would need a unique structure in terms of financial support.

I saw this and found it interesting that a private donation had to be found via the federal opposition, to keep an Australian football program alive in the N.T. One which appears to be really good for indigenous kids. Yet on the other hand, the federal government is happy to fund rugby league expansion in Pacific countries outside of PNG to the tune of $250 million, simply to spread the English code of rugby league.

The one thing I did think though, those people that did the private donation might be a future option to be a private owner of a Northern Australian team, as they must have plenty of money to spare. But yeah, overall it's very poor the government couldn't chip in for Australian footy, yet again.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Good crowd at Manuka last night for a practice match Giants v Carlton. Haven't heard an actual figure but would guess 8,000 ish.

There is a strong market there. Ripe for a new ground on the tram line and a 20th team?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Good crowd at Manuka last night for a practice match Giants v Carlton. Haven't heard an actual figure but would guess 8,000 ish.

There is a strong market there. Ripe for a new ground on the tram line and a 20th team?

Absolutely no chance of a new ground. Even properly rectangularising Bruce isn't going to happen in the near term; and that is far more likely than a new rectangle which would get 3 times the use and about five times as likely as a new footy/cricket ground.
Transport and health are, rightly, ACT government priorities. Housing is the missing bit ticket item.
The ACT isn't Tasmania, where government falls over itself chasing the biggest possible white elephants. That's not to say the ACT government is particularly good, but Tasmania has for decades had a special mix of incompetence and corruption rarely seen outside sub-Saharan Africa and central America - Tassie has been making Joh look honest ever since Joh was a thing.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Good crowd at Manuka last night for a practice match Giants v Carlton. Haven't heard an actual figure but would guess 8,000 ish.

Definitely a great crowd for a preseason match. The early start on a work day put a few people off, too. People filtered in late.

There is a strong market there. Ripe for a new ground on the tram line and a 20th team?

The main route planned should get a light rail stop about 900m from Manuka. A possible alternate route will get it about 750m. Not super close, but definitely in walking distance for most and should make the ground more accessible (at least for anybody living between Woden and Gungahlin).

 

[Cmarsh]

I saw this and found it interesting that a private donation had to be found via the federal opposition, to keep an Australian football program alive in the N.T. One which appears to be really good for indigenous kids. Yet on the other hand, the federal government is happy to fund rugby league expansion in Pacific countries outside of PNG to the tune of $250 million, simply to spread the English code of rugby league.

The one thing I did think though, those people that did the private donation might be a future option to be a private owner of a Northern Australian team, as they must have plenty of money to spare. But yeah, overall it's very poor the government couldn't chip in for Australian footy, yet again.

It's actually $600m.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Definitely a great crowd for a preseason match. The early start on a work day put a few people off, too. People filtered in late.



The mai


QUOTE="Canberra Pear, post: 86866659, member: 177866"]
Definitely a great crowd for a preseason match. The early start on a work day put a few people off, too. People filtered in late.



The main route planned should get a light rail stop about 900m from Manuka. A possible alternate route will get it about 750m. Not super close, but definitely in walking distance for most and should make the ground more accessible (at least for anybody living between Woden and Gungahlin).

My suspicion would be that a new ground would be a requirement for an AFL licence. Couldn't imagine a club would be competitive financially with a 14,000? seat stadium.

At the very least Manuka would require a huge upgrade with permanent stands etc taking it well above 20,000 capacity.

 

[3rd Grade Maggy]

My suspicion would be that a new ground would be a requirement for an AFL licence. Couldn't imagine a club would be competitive financially with a 14,000? seat stadium.

At the very least Manuka would require a huge upgrade with permanent stands etc taking it well above 20,000 capacity.

They're doing the feaso now for an eastern stand to get capacity up to around there.

 

[Canberra Pear]

My suspicion would be that a new ground would be a requirement for an AFL licence. Couldn't imagine a club would be competitive financially with a 14,000? seat stadium.

At the very least Manuka would require a huge upgrade with permanent stands etc taking it well above 20,000 capacity.

Exactly what 3GM said. 20k for AFL/18k for cricket.

It's been as part of the ACT Government's push for a BBL team.

 

[Bjo187]

Exactly what 3GM said. 20k for AFL/18k for cricket.

It's been as part of the ACT Government's push for a BBL team.

What would be the ideal capacity on entry to the competition do you think? Considering of course a full smaller stadium looks better than a partly empty bigger stadium.

 

[Canberra Pear]

What would be the ideal capacity on entry to the competition do you think? Considering of course a full smaller stadium looks better than a partly empty bigger stadium.

I do think 20k is a bit on the small side. Especially as we don't have any other stadium for bigger games like the Giants have Accor.

I think we've shown we'd get stronger crowds than the Giants (and I think higher than the Suns), so I don't think our crowds would look as cavernous in a 25k stadium, but I think 25k might be overkill to start with.

I would like to see it renovated to 22k.

20k is renovating it so that the eastern stand matches the western stand. I'd like to see this redevelopment take it to 22k, then down the track, re-do the western stand to bring it up to 24k.

 

[Bjo187]

I do think 20k is a bit on the small side. Especially as we don't have any other stadium for bigger games like the Giants have Accor.

I think we've shown we'd get stronger crowds than the Giants (and I think higher than the Suns), so I don't think our crowds would look as cavernous in a 25k stadium, but I think 25k might be overkill to start with.

I would like to see it renovated to 22k.

20k is renovating it so that the eastern stand matches the western stand. I'd like to see this redevelopment take it to 22k, then down the track, re-do the western stand to bring it up to 24k.

It's interesting though coz Hobart will be 23k and there's only like 240k in the city, compared to ACT about 500k come entry time. Plus Canberra will get a lot more of the casual traveller by car from Melbourne and Sydney for games which will add more away fans than any other interstate location.

Maybe starting at about 22k and working up to 30k after about 10 years in, when the base is built up might be a good approach. Getting funding for stadia upgrades twice in a short period might be difficult though, especially with he rugby crowd still complaining.

 

[Giant YoYo]

rugby crowd still complaining.

Herein lies the problem. The rectangular sports crowd never stops whinging.