Cardinal Pell - Guilty

Demosthenes

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#76
Have you ever said that to a victim?
It may not be what the victim wants to hear in the moment, but it's the foundation of our legal system.

It's why (for example) the state can prosecute an offender even if the victim doesn't want the matter to go to court.
 

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Gralin

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It may not be what the victim wants to hear in the moment, but it's the foundation of our legal system.

It's why the state can prosecute an offender even if the victim doesn't want the matter to go to court.
It absolutely is not what the victim wants to hear

Because if you aren't a lawyer it means, what happened to you doesn't matter

Telling someone that was bashed or raped that it is important to remember that the crime wasn't committed against them but the "community" is shit.

It might be how the legal framework is setup but it leaves a little something to be desired as far as bedside manner goes
 

Demosthenes

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#78
Well, I wouldn't phrase it like that when talking to the victim in the immediate aftermath of the crime - but it's still an important thing for them to understand so that they have accurate expectations. For example, there are seven different priorities that the court has to take into account when sentencing an offender - and only one of those (the last one) is the impact of the crime on the victim.

Justice in common-law countries is community-centred rather than victim-centred, and the fact that most people don't understand this is why victims are often disappointed by the outcome of trials.

If you're ever the victim of a crime, it's important to remember that the police and prosecutors aren't there to serve your interests. You're there to serve theirs - as a witness prosecuting someone on behalf of the state.
 

perthblue

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#79
And this is the line that says the person accusing him is lying, which is a horrible thing to put out there about survivors

We've got commentators like Bolt who weren't present for all proceedings (because even if he wanted to be some sessions were closed to the media and the public) saying it's a miscarriage of justice.

Well how would he know? Paedophiles are successful because they can hide their actions from the people that know them.

A jury convicted him, we are saying that all of them are wrong too, you wonder why so many people don't come forward? Because of shit like this
well okay maybe it wasn't a tactful way to put it, but this whole thing stinks to me
 

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Well, I wouldn't phrase it like that when talking to the victim in the immediate aftermath of the crime - but it's still an important thing for them to understand so that they have accurate expectations. For example, there are seven different priorities that the court has to take into account when sentencing an offender - and only one of those (the last one) is the impact of the crime on the victim.

Justice in common-law countries is community-centred rather than victim-centred, and the fact that most people don't understand this is why victims are often disappointed by the outcome of trials.

If you're ever the victim of a crime, it's important to remember that the police and prosecutors aren't there to serve your interests. You're there to serve theirs - as a witness prosecuting someone on behalf of the state.
It's an interesting thing that in all of this the victim of the crime is at best a distant last.

Obviously you can't reverse what was done to them, the best you can do is stop the perpetrator from doing it to others in the future.

And for some that may be all they want, and yes making sure they understand what they are getting into is important.

But the way the system is built tends to lead to a lot of really shit language being used at and about victims of crime, because the victim isnt important in the matter, other than as a tool
 

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well okay maybe it wasn't a tactful way to put it, but this whole thing stinks to me
I think he did it.
But I also think their would be a bit of poetry if he went down for something he didn't do given he's been up to his eyeballs in covering this shit up for decades.

He's had other charges against him for other incidents dropped, this stuff has been following him around for years, from multiple people, the fact the we have this weird situation where he appears to have been convicted based on the testimony of one person is interesting and could yet prove his way out.

But I don't think he's even close to clean
 

Ron The Bear

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#82
If Pell is the expert, daring pedo swordsman described by the witness, you’d expect to see a flood of claims coming in following his conviction, given it was the act of a compulsive offender.
 
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#83
If Pell is the expert, daring pedo swordsman described by the witness, you’d expect to see a flood of claims coming in following his conviction, given it was the act of a compulsive offender.
You mean the flood of complainants who've already been paid-off for their silence?
 

FrankGrimes

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#84
Apparently Pell wanted to take the stand but he is so unlikable that the defense told him not to. I know most people who are charged dont take the stand because the prosecution will tear them apart, but Mick Gatto did had his murder trial and did it brilliantly.
 

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#86
Pell-end needed the defense lawyer from the case I was jury on. After two weeks we had enough reasonable doubt that old mate never penetrated his step daughter and found him not guilty on 12 out of 14 charges.


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edgie

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#87
Another thing stressed by the judge in this case was 'community standards'. The letter of the law was merely a guideline. Demon is right about that part regarding the community and the victim.


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Scotland

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#92
I think he did it.
But I also think their would be a bit of poetry if he went down for something he didn't do given he's been up to his eyeballs in covering this shit up for decades.

He's had other charges against him for other incidents dropped, this stuff has been following him around for years, from multiple people, the fact the we have this weird situation where he appears to have been convicted based on the testimony of one person is interesting and could yet prove his way out.

But I don't think he's even close to clean
I have no idea if he did it or not, but he was convicted by a jury so they were. I get that it's a high profile case and biases will come into play, but it's not like the prosecution could have fabricated a smoking gun given the nature of the case. It's easy to start a witch hunt and trial by media, it's not easy to convince a jury based on testimony.

I don't condone people being convicted of crimes on the basis of 'well the last 10 got off so we'll get this guy' but I can't help but view the whole thing through some kind of reverse boy cried wolf prism.
 

mouncey2franklin

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#93
I remember back when I thought the average person was considerate, empathic, and thoughtful. Knowing what I know now, I'm not surprised by the unbridled joy of the Australian masses moralising about the alleged actions of a man they've never met. Oh, it feels good to hate, doesn't it? Hate away. Wish this guy horrors and evils. Tell your friends how much you hate him. It will make you feel goooood.
 
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#94
I remember back when I thought the average person was considerate, empathic, and thoughtful. Knowing what I know now, I'm not surprised by the unbridled joy of the Australian masses moralising about the alleged actions of a man they've never met. Oh, it feels good to hate, doesn't it? Hate away. Wish this guy horrors and evils. Tell your friends how much you hate him. It will make you feel goooood.
Maybe he should have stopped to think about what was right & wrong, true, good & upstanding behaviour, before he allowed his 'urges' to get the better of him, in fiddling with kiddies, under the guise of his robes & masked by his standing in society & the power he wielded.....Not to mention aiding & abetting his sicko paedophile mates, under his charge, in causing massive harm to an entire generation of kids.

Power corrupts....Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There is no defence for this sick monster hiding behind his robes in disguise.....He is a wolf in sheeps clothing.....Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Larry Barnsworth

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#96
You would have thought these would be the people most angry. The dude has corrupted their faith. Misappropriated their tything. Permanently damaged this "greater good" that they hold so dear. The above, and the newspaper article yesterday attacking the "wicked" victims are truly bizarre. I would have expected calls of excommunication. Yet they're doubling down on him being persecuted, which almost draws comparisons with their favourite mascot. And despite some of Pope Frankies utterances, you can tell this Pray for rock spiders is being managed. Vow of obedience afterall.

I come from a very Catholic family, although for some reason the indoctrination never stuck with me. Spoke with my Mum through the week who reminded me it was Ash Wednesday, and that she needed to prepare some ash wednesday appropriate dinner (platypus I think). I was unaware of the day and made a joke. She felt the need to explain to me she will be continuing with her faith and her rituals, but that she is utterly disgusted with Pell and wants to see the men running the Church clean their house of corruption. My cynical chuckles aside, she said that last part with a venom that I've rarely heard from her. Serious anger and betrayal. Practically spat it out. This is more in line with responses I would expect from the Catholic. Not this Nuremberg style nonsense.
 

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#98
You would have thought these would be the people most angry. The dude has corrupted their faith. Misappropriated their tything. Permanently damaged this "greater good" that they hold so dear. The above, and the newspaper article yesterday attacking the "wicked" victims are truly bizarre. I would have expected calls of excommunication. Yet they're doubling down on him being persecuted, which almost draws comparisons with their favourite mascot. And despite some of Pope Frankies utterances, you can tell this Pray for rock spiders is being managed. Vow of obedience afterall.

I come from a very Catholic family, although for some reason the indoctrination never stuck with me. Spoke with my Mum through the week who reminded me it was Ash Wednesday, and that she needed to prepare some ash wednesday appropriate dinner (platypus I think). I was unaware of the day and made a joke. She felt the need to explain to me she will be continuing with her faith and her rituals, but that she is utterly disgusted with Pell and wants to see the men running the Church clean their house of corruption. My cynical chuckles aside, she said that last part with a venom that I've rarely heard from her. Serious anger and betrayal. Practically spat it out. This is more in line with responses I would expect from the Catholic. Not this Nuremberg style nonsense.
Have found it odd over the years self-described disgusted Catholics don't switch to less campaignery branches of Christianity. Bullshit exceptionalism drilled into them from childhood I suppose. Instead "I'm not donating this year!". Ooooh, that'll show 'em while you keep ticking 'Catholic' in the census.
 
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