Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[kingswood71]

Perhaps now with further scientific research being explored on the matter will those percentages begin shifting.
You know, the same 'experts' who have shifted the goal posts on a few covid truths the longer this pandemic goes on.

If a part of the virus enters the nucleus, it would more likely be the N protein as thats what occurs with other coronaviruses...
The mRNA vaccines codes the S protein.
You seem to be focused on the theoretical risks of the vaccines, but not the theoretical risks of the virus itself.

 

[Trav 20]

The vaccines aren't designed to "stop virus transmission", they're designed to stimulate a person's immune system to build a protection to the virus to reduce the risk of serious illness if infected.

Your interpretation needs clarification, because it's less than desirable for vaccines.

Firstly, here's the glossary definition of vaccines from the CDC:

A suspension of live (usually attenuated) or inactivated microorganisms (e.g. bacteria or viruses) or fractions thereof administered to induce immunity and prevent infectious diseases and their sequelae.

(None of which, by the way, fits with mRNA gene therapy treatments, as these treatments don't prevent infection, replication, or transmission. Nor is an inactive part of the virus included. But that's by the by.)

What you're describing in your above post are ''leaky'' vaccines.

From an article on healthline.com

''According to a new study published today in the scientific journal PLOS Biology, some types of vaccines could allow more virulent versions of a virus to survive, putting those who are unvaccinated at greater risk of severe illness.

To understand this, it’s necessary to examine the difference between “perfect” vaccines and “leaky” ones.

Perfect vaccines are so-named because they mimic the perfect immunity that humans naturally develop after having certain childhood disease.

“When a vaccine works perfectly, as do the childhood vaccines for smallpox, polio, mumps, rubella and measles, it prevents vaccinated individuals from being sickened by the disease, and it also prevents them from transmitting the virus to others,” said Andrew Read, an author of the study and an Evan Pugh professor of biology and entomology and Eberly professor in biotechnology at Penn State University.

After experiments done in a specialized pathogen-containment facility at The Pirbright Institute in the United Kingdom, the researchers concluded that the vaccines developed to combat Marek’s disease were imperfect or leaky.

“These vaccines also allow the virulent virus to continue evolving precisely because they allow the vaccinated individuals, and therefore themselves, to survive,” said Venugopal Nair, who led the research team. He is the head of the Avian Viral Diseases program at The Pirbright Institute.

These less-than-perfect vaccines create a “leaky” barrier against the virus. Vaccinated individuals may get sick but have less severe symptoms, but the virus survives long enough to transmit to others, which allows it to survive and spread throughout a population.

“Our research demonstrates that the use of leaky vaccines can promote the evolution of nastier ‘hot’ viral strains that put unvaccinated individuals at greater risk,” Nair said.

 

[BlueE]

"Hundreds of times" ???
psView attachment 1279212
"Myocarditis (or pericarditis or myopericarditis) from primary COVID19 infection occurred at a rate as high as 450 per million in young males. Young males infected with the virus are up 6 times more likely to develop myocarditis as those who have received the vaccine"

Risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 Infection in People Under Age 20: A Population-Based Analysis

Background There have been recent reports of myocarditis (including myocarditis, pericarditis or myopericarditis) as a side-effect of mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines, particularly in young males. Less information is available regarding the risk of myocarditis from COVID-19 infection itself. Such...

www.medrxiv.org

This chart is only age stratified and has males, females, first and second doses combined.

This is despite knowing males after second dose in under 30 and under 24 age groups are much worse than the combined results that show to 25 times more than expected observed cases of myopericarditis after mRNA injections, this chart shows.

The pre print looks at myocarditis and pericarditis in their definition of cases after COVID infection. There still isn't enough cases for analysis so they estimated, projected and then multiplied the denominator of COVID-19 cases to make assumptions about cases number after COVID infection. Hardly inspiring accuracy!

This is then compared with CDC data of myocarditis from VAERS reports known to be under reported and backlogged, so their conclusion that young males are 6x more likely to get myopericarditis from the infection rather than the vaccine, doesn't match data in the US or Israel, which show the opposite.



In a report submitted June 1 2021, to the Israeli Ministry of Health, showed a 50% increase in acute coronary syndrome and cardiac arrests for males 20 to 29 years and a 25% increase for females the same age.

"Ninety percent of the cases picked up in Israel appeared in men, and although myocarditis is normally more common among young men, the rate among those vaccinated was somewhere between five and 25 times the background rate, the report says."

 

[Gruffles]

Your interpretation needs clarification, because it's less than desirable for vaccines.

Firstly, here's the glossary definition of vaccines from the CDC:

A suspension of live (usually attenuated) or inactivated microorganisms (e.g. bacteria or viruses) or fractions thereof administered to induce immunity and prevent infectious diseases and their sequelae.

(None of which, by the way, fits with mRNA gene therapy treatments, as these treatments don't prevent infection, replication, or transmission. Nor is an inactive part of the virus included. But that's by the by.)

What you're describing in your above post are ''leaky'' vaccines.

I would interpret the "or fraction thereof" as covering the mRNA viral sequence in those particular types of vaccines. And, to clarify, the glossary definition doesn't state anything about preventing infection, replication, or transmission. It refers directly to the inducing of immunity and preventing symptoms of infectious diseases.

The leaky vs perfect vaccine is a separate discussion, but both of which are, by definition, vaccines.

 

[BlueE]

I have no idea what you mean here and how this related to VTE events? Except that I am thinking you looked at how many people died from VTE related to the OCP?
You know people who dont take the pill can gets VTE yeah?
The UK data shows that "Over the 3-year period of 2013–15, the average number of deaths from venous thromboembolism in England was 12 640 per annum. Using the raw NHS Outcomes Framework data and population statistics for England in 2018, we calculate a crude annual venous thromboembolism mortality rate of 21·7 per 100 000"

Pulmonary embolism mortality trends in the European region—too good to be true?

We commend Stefano Barco and colleagues1 on their landmark paper quantifying age-standardised pulmonary embolism mortality rates and trends in Europe. However, we caution that the findings might be overly optimistic. In England, deaths from venous thromboembolism within 90 days of a hospital...

www.thelancet.com

12640 is bigger than 10....

Is it related to vaccines?

I only gave reports and deaths. for deep vein thrombosis thrombosis and D dimer investigations shortly after COVID vaccine, compared to reports and deaths of the same from all vaccines over the last 50 years. They are all AE categories,

Comparing same with same as much as possible.

Make less vague general statements if you didn't want to compare vaccine adverse events and deaths with deep vein thrombosis and thrombosis and D dimer investigations.

 

[Trav 20]

The leaky vs perfect vaccine is a separate discussion, but both of which are, by definition, vaccines.

Which is the essence of my post.

You stated that vaccines aren't designed to stop transmission. On the contrary, stopping transmission is an important component of their use.

 

[Gruffles]

Which is the essence of my post.

You stated that vaccines aren't designed to stop transmission. On the contrary, stopping transmission is an important component of their use.

I think this is a loose look at the definition though. Leaky vaccines are one's that may not completely eliminate the virus in the vaccinated individual, while a perfect vaccine does. From a definitional point of view, a vaccine is not designed to stop a vaccinated person transmitting the virus onto someone else. They can't stop the person being exposed to the virus either (so therefore can't stop transmission to the vaccinated individual). So, stopping transmission is not a part of the function of the vaccine, which is why it's not included in the CDC definition.

 

[kingswood71]

View attachment 1279255

This chart is only age stratified and has males, females, first and second doses combined.

This is despite knowing males after second dose in under 30 and under 24 age groups are much worse than the combined results that show to 25 times more than expected observed cases of myopericarditis after mRNA injections, this chart shows.

The pre print looks at myocarditis and pericarditis in their definition of cases after COVID infection. There still isn't enough cases for analysis so they estimated, projected and then multiplied the denominator of COVID-19 cases to make assumptions about cases number after COVID infection. Hardly inspiring accuracy!

This is then compared with CDC data of myocarditis from VAERS reports known to be under reported and backlogged, so their conclusion that young males are 6x more likely to get myopericarditis from the infection rather than the vaccine, doesn't match data in the US or Israel, which show the opposite.

View attachment 1279304

In a report submitted June 1 2021, to the Israeli Ministry of Health, showed a 50% increase in acute coronary syndrome and cardiac arrests for males 20 to 29 years and a 25% increase for females the same age.

"Ninety percent of the cases picked up in Israel appeared in men, and although myocarditis is normally more common among young men, the rate among those vaccinated was somewhere between five and 25 times the background rate, the report says."




View attachment 1279307

View attachment 1279308

Whats with the annotated pics? A link to where you obtained them would be nice.
Someone has circled "ejection fraction" in red. Interestingly the actual paper reports that 2 of the cases with pericarditis had heart failure....so 2 of the 3 circled could be explained by that, given that cardiac failure is measured by ECHO and the EF.
Interestingly the study reports "Twenty individuals had vaccine-related myocarditis (1.0 [95% CI, 0.61-1.54] per 100 000) and 37 had pericarditis (1.8 [95% CI, 1.30-2.55] per 100 000)"
Have you read the study that whoever circled the reds bit used??
My Hebrew is also not so good, so a link to the English version of the papaer would be appreciated.
"Ninety percent of the cases picked up in Israel appeared in men, and although myocarditis is normally more common among young men, the rate among those vaccinated was somewhere between five and 25 times the background rate, the report says." ....So not "hundreds" of times as you wrote earlier then?
I dont understand why you have also given data about VTE and covid when I asked for you to give me the actual incidence of VTE in Australia. Hint: Its a lot more than what the graph you presented is, irrespective of covid.

 

[Trav 20]

I think this is a loose look at the definition though. Leaky vaccines are one's that may not completely eliminate the virus in the vaccinated individual, while a perfect vaccine does. From a definitional point of view, a vaccine is not designed to stop a vaccinated person transmitting the virus onto someone else. They can't stop the person being exposed to the virus either (so therefore can't stop transmission to the vaccinated individual). So, stopping transmission is not a part of the function of the vaccine, which is why it's not included in the CDC definition.

Vaccines are far more than a glossary definition. Practicality and function is of utmost importance.

Science is trying to improve vaccines. Suggesting transmission isn't a functional part of a vaccine is nonsense, which is why scientists undertake studies on the adverse nature of such vaccines and how to improve them.

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

A study using Marek's disease virus in poultry shows that by reducing natural selection against highly virulent strains, imperfect vaccination enables the spread of viral strains that would otherwise be too lethal to persist.

journals.plos.org

 

[bing181]

Whats with the annotated pics? A link to where you obtained them would be nice.

He thinks that posting a whole heap of impressive-looking data makes some kind of point - even when he doesn't understand what it's saying, and even when it doesn't make the point he seems to think it does.

 

[kingswood71]

Is it related to vaccines?

I only gave reports and deaths. for deep vein thrombosis thrombosis and D dimer investigations shortly after COVID vaccine, compared to reports and deaths of the same from all vaccines over the last 50 years. They are all AE categories,

Comparing same with same as much as possible.

Make less vague general statements if you didn't want to compare vaccine adverse events and deaths with deep vein thrombosis and thrombosis and D dimer investigations.

No. You are throwing randoms figures out there and I want you to consider what the actual incidence of these conditions are when vaccines arent included....
Its great to say "1200" cases of thrombus, but you need to consider what the usual rate of thrombus is, irrespective of vaccines....For example, if the rate of DVT in Australia is 150-160/100,000 and 90% of people have been vaccinated, you would expect that some people would develop DVT's who are also vaccinated......So if thats the incidence, you would expect around 36,000 DVT cases a year and because a large % of these are vaccinated, the vaccinated would get DVT's too....
My statement sure as heck wasnt vague. I asked for what the incidence of thromboembolism is in Australia........!!

 

[Gruffles]

Vaccines are far more than a glossary definition. Practicality and function is of utmost importance.

Science is trying to improve vaccines. Suggesting transmission isn't a functional part of a vaccine is nonsense, which is why scientists undertake studies on the adverse nature of such vaccines and how to improve them.

I mean... You brought the glossary definition into the discussion and now you're saying we shouldn't look at it?

I replied to a poster who claimed these vaccines weren't doing what they were supposed to do in preventing the spread of the virus. This is not the function of a vaccine. If as a consequence of using a vaccine the spread of a virus is prevented then that's fantastic and research into this is absolutely welcome and good to see.

 

[Trav 20]

I mean... You brought the glossary definition into the discussion and now you're saying we shouldn't look at it?

I replied to a poster who claimed these vaccines weren't doing what they were supposed to do in preventing the spread of the virus. This is not the function of a vaccine. If as a consequence of using a vaccine the spread of a virus is prevented then that's fantastic and research into this is absolutely welcome and good to see.

I posted the glossary definition, because calling the mRNA gene therapy treatments as vaccines is tenuous at best. But I'll leave that for another day.

When I read your post that preventing transmission is not a requirement of vaccines it raised my eyebrows to say the least, because I was aware of perfect vaccines, as well as the problems with ''leaky'' vaccines and the various studies.

The WHO say, ''Vaccines are also critical to the prevention and control of infectious-disease outbreaks.''

How do you prevent or control outbreaks if preventing transmission isn't a priority ?

 

[BlueE]

Whats with the annotated pics? A link to where you obtained them would be nice.
Someone has circled "ejection fraction" in red. Interestingly the actual paper reports that 2 of the cases with pericarditis had heart failure....so 2 of the 3 circled could be explained by that, given that cardiac failure is measured by ECHO and the EF.
Interestingly the study reports "Twenty individuals had vaccine-related myocarditis (1.0 [95% CI, 0.61-1.54] per 100 000) and 37 had pericarditis (1.8 [95% CI, 1.30-2.55] per 100 000)"
Have you read the study that whoever circled the reds bit used??
My Hebrew is also not so good, so a link to the English version of the papaer would be appreciated.
"Ninety percent of the cases picked up in Israel appeared in men, and although myocarditis is normally more common among young men, the rate among those vaccinated was somewhere between five and 25 times the background rate, the report says." ....So not "hundreds" of times as you wrote earlier then?
I dont understand why you have also given data about VTE and covid when I asked for you to give me the actual incidence of VTE in Australia. Hint: Its a lot more than what the graph you presented is, irrespective of covid.

I've already translated and linked it months ago. I can find it for you, but the main part of the report is the English table with comparison of acute coronary syndrome and cardiac arrests in five months only with COVID and the same five months period a year later, after vaccination.

The table I used for hundreds more than expected (either one or two hundred) was the slide presented to the FDA with the same information in the chart you showed but age and gender stratified and applied to the 18 to 24 male age group after second dose. From preliminary VAERS reports with underreporting and a large back log not analysed. Has been confirmed with many other countries data and actions in banning, or age restricting Modena and Pfizer in the younger population.

What's not to understand about comparing adverse events and deaths after COVID vaccine injections with all other vaccines in Australia after 50 years?

I've already linked the FDA document ordering Pfizer to complete a range of heart inflammation studies in under 30s and younger age groups which won't be completed until between 2023 and 2027. Coercing anyone in the AFL age cohort to take these jabs, when it's known there are serious safety heart inflammation concerns and long term safety studies won't be completed for years is unforgivable.

 

[BlueE]

No. You are throwing randoms figures out there and I want you to consider what the actual incidence of these conditions are when vaccines arent included....
Its great to say "1200" cases of thrombus, but you need to consider what the usual rate of thrombus is, irrespective of vaccines....For example, if the rate of DVT in Australia is 150-160/100,000 and 90% of people have been vaccinated, you would expect that some people would develop DVT's who are also vaccinated......So if thats the incidence, you would expect around 36,000 DVT cases a year and because a large % of these are vaccinated, the vaccinated would get DVT's too....
My statement sure as heck wasnt vague. I asked for what the incidence of thromboembolism is in Australia........!!

Perhaps we better wait for "all cause deaths" numbers to be released and compare the numbers this year to last, or the average of the last five years.

Then you can get triggered .........!!

 

[kingswood71]

Perhaps we better wait for "all cause deaths" numbers to be released and compare the numbers this year to last, or the average of the last five years.

Then you can get triggered .........!!

Yep lets do that.

 

[Gruffles]

I posted the glossary definition, because calling the mRNA gene therapy treatments as vaccines is tenuous at best. But I'll leave that for another day.

When I read your post that preventing transmission is not a requirement of vaccines it raised my eyebrows to say the least, because I was aware of perfect vaccines, as well as the problems with ''leaky'' vaccines and the various studies.

The WHO say, ''Vaccines are also critical to the prevention and control of infectious-disease outbreaks.''

How do you prevent or control outbreaks if preventing transmission isn't a priority ?

Low transmission is a potential consequence of mass vaccination, but is not the intended function of the vaccine when a vaccine is developed. Hence why vaccinations are critical to control of outbreaks, but this doesn't mean that's their intended function.

A vaccine is developed to stimulate the immune response to that particular disease within the vaccinated individual, this, in turn, may result in a reduction of transmission within the population. If it does, fantastic! If it doesn't, it's still a vaccine.

 

[Trav 20]

Low transmission is a potential consequence of mass vaccination, but is not the intended function of the vaccine when a vaccine is developed. Hence why vaccinations are critical to control of outbreaks, but this doesn't mean that's their intended function.

A vaccine is developed to stimulate the immune response to that particular disease within the vaccinated individual, this, in turn, may result in a reduction of transmission within the population. If it does, fantastic! If it doesn't, it's still a vaccine.

Yes, I'm aware of the primary function.

What does a virus want to do and how does it do it ? Clearly a rhetorical question. The virus wants to survive and it does so by replication and transmission.

It's silly to suggest vaccines aren't intended to prevent this.

 

[azlou]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/...nvaccinated.html?referringSource=articleShare

 

[azlou]

BERLIN — The University Hospital of Giessen, one of Germany’s foremost clinics for pulmonary disease, is at capacity. The number of Covid-19 patients has tripled in recent weeks. Nearly half of them are on ventilators.
And every single one is unvaccinated.
“I ask every patient: Why didn’t you get vaccinated?” said Dr. Susanne Herold, head of infectious diseases, after her daily round on the ward on Thursday. “It’s a mix of people who distrust the vaccine, distrust the state and are often difficult to reach by public information campaigns.”
Patients like hers are the main drivers of a fourth wave of Covid-19 cases in Germany that has produced tens of thousands of new daily infections — more than the country has had at any point in the pandemic.

 

[kingswood71]

I've already translated and linked it months ago. I can find it for you, but the main part of the report is the English table with comparison of acute coronary syndrome and cardiac arrests in five months only with COVID and the same five months period a year later, after vaccination.

Could it be that January to May 2020, Israel only had this many cases, but by January to May 2021 they were having 10K cases a day?...or was it all due to the vaccines??

And is there a breakdown of the 53 Cardiac arrests in 20-24 year olds by vaccination status??

 

[azlou]

As the above articles show we are not going to be lifting restrictions on the unvaccinated any time soon
If anything they will be increased no jab no play

 

[kingswood71]

age restricting Modena and Pfizer in the younger population.

havent countries like Germany restricted Moderna but not Pfizer?
I thought that they were saying to use Pfizer in under 30's, rather than moderna.

 

[Gruffles]

Yes, I'm aware of the primary function.

What does a virus want to do and how does it do it ? Clearly a rhetorical question. The virus wants to survive and it does so by replication and transmission.

It's silly to suggest vaccines aren't intended to prevent this.

The primary function is it's function. A vaccine intervenes in that it stimulates the bodies immune system to combat a virus, it doesn't interact with the virus at all. It's the body that then is tasked to destroy the virus before it can replicate. A subsequent outcome of this is that the person may then not transmit the virus to someone else, but, once again, this is not the purpose of the vaccine... This is a consequence.

Trying to discredit a vaccine that is achieving its function, but a potential outcome of using it is not occurring is, in my view, the silly thing.

Also... Viruses don't want to do anything, they're not living organisms.

In any case, it's clear we're not going to agree here so let's leave it at that.

 

[Roby]

Hence my earlier post about background incidences of myocarditis and also the incidence rate of myocarditis in covid infections
COVID-19 is estimated to cause myocarditis at a rate of 11.0 events per 100,000 persons, whilst Comirnaty Pfizer) vaccine has been estimated to cause myocarditis at an overall rate of 2.7 events per 100,000 persons.

I'm still not confident this is not just noise in the data.

I've said this before in another thread but myocarditis is more commmon than what most people think it is. It's just that we are looking for the data and assume there is a link to it.

Although there have been studies done for half a decade, we are still along way from been confident to know what causes myocarditis, as in, why some people get it and some don't.

There was a link with myocarditis with the smallpox vaccine in military personell but there has been numerous studies that show myocarditis is probably more linked with excessive excercise after infections (viral or bacterial). It appears that without suffecient rest, the heart is not able to stop infection during cardiomyopathy and possibly causing myocardial infraction. It's possible to assume that over exertion can cause the outer layers of the heart to weaken and not able to stop an inflammation/cytokine storm. On the other hand vaccinated subjects/cohorts have shown to reduce symptoms and deaths despite excessive excercise and infection.

In other words there is no good reason not to be vaccinated if you are young and healthy. If you have a possible predisposition to myocarditis getting covid is going to be a serious issue in which the vaccine can either prevent or reduce substantially.

And we haven't even discussed the whole epidemiological and ethical debate that letting run a deadly and highly contagious disease amongst young people and then allowing it to mutate freely and often.