Clancee Pearce elevated!

[BananaOnTheRun]

dont get me wrong, Fyfe is tough, but he is not the sort of kamikaze throw himself at a ground ball type player like deboer or lower are.

morabito has played mostly midfield, thats true, but I personally think he will end up a half forward flanker

I think your mistaking toughness at the contested possession with toughness. What I mean is that if the ball is in between player A and say someone like joel selwood, who would you back to win that contest? prior to this preseason I would have said Lower, Deboer and Mcphee, now I think only Deboer would be the player I would back in our side. All those players you have nominated as being tough I agree, but none of them have been proven to be contested possession specialists.

yeah, i was talking more about ambient toughness, which i think does contribute to a team mentality, and makes up for the loss of mcphee and lower somewhat. if you're talking about contested possession toughness, then we haven't lost much of that with lower and mcphee's departure as lower didn't play much and it wasn't mcphee's role. pearce and deboer i'd back in to take on the opposition player. something must have been working right as we were leading contested footy by the end of last year.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

yeah, i was talking more about ambient toughness, which i think does contribute to a team mentality, and makes up for the loss of mcphee and lower somewhat. if you're talking about contested possession toughness, then we haven't lost much of that with lower and mcphee's departure as lower didn't play much and it wasn't mcphee's role. pearce and deboer i'd back in to take on the opposition player. something must have been working right as we were leading contested footy by the end of last year.

yeah, i know what your saying, although broughton was also very good at the contested ball. I think we can attribute the leading contested footy to our midfield structures which were fantastic. I guess I look at a team like geelong, and they have bartel, selwood and corey, all of whom are unbelieveable at going in hard and getting the ball... yet geelongs weakness this year was the contested ball.

maybe im being a bit simplistic in my thoughts, but I always go back to if the ball was in between someone like brett kirk and one of our players, who would win that contest? and I keep coming up a blank at the moment. As i said probably bit too simplistic

 

[riffraff]

I don't think toughness around contests will be a problem. All them players mentioned by Banana on the run would happily put their body on the line in a contest. Ballas, Mayne, Suban, Spurr, Fyfe to name a few all prime examples. They attack a contest without hesitation but are smart about it (well maybe not Ballas but I think he likes pain.) You cant have to many in the team running into contests recklessly headfirst otherwise half the team will be getting knocked the F out every week just like Mcphee and Lower found out last season. Its good to have a few players like that around the ground to improve morale and to keep the opposition on their toes when entering a contest and I think we have that covered even without Mcphee and Lower. One ships out and another will step up, I'm sure Rosco is all over it.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

yeah, i know what your saying, although broughton was also very good at the contested ball. I think we can attribute the leading contested footy to our midfield structures which were fantastic. I guess I look at a team like geelong, and they have bartel, selwood and corey, all of whom are unbelieveable at going in hard and getting the ball... yet geelongs weakness this year was the contested ball.

maybe im being a bit simplistic in my thoughts, but I always go back to if the ball was in between someone like brett kirk and one of our players, who would win that contest? and I keep coming up a blank at the moment. As i said probably bit too simplistic

it would probably be a structural thing. if crowley is playing on their best or most damaging mid and pearce/de boer are doing the blocking/grunt work, it reduces the scenario of a one-on-one contest. perhaps five or ten years ago it would have been more of an issue, but thanks to the planning of ross and stone, our structures are probably sophisticated enough to not have to rely too heavily on a hard-headed mid. to illustrate the point, none of those guys you mentioned made the all australian team (bartel due to injury, probably). instead, you had 'tough' midfielders like swan, watson, kennedy and s. thomson who aren't necessarily kamikaze type players but hard at it, uncompromising players who win the footy and can turn a game on their own. then there are players like ablett, pendelbury and dangerfield are aren't known for the toughness but for their ballwinning and usage. at the end of the day, if we're winning it out of the middle and our structures don't allow the opposition first use of the ball, then perhaps those kamikaze type players aren't needed.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

it would probably be a structural thing. if crowley is playing on their best or most damaging mid and pearce/de boer are doing the blocking/grunt work, it reduces the scenario of a one-on-one contest. perhaps five or ten years ago it would have been more of an issue, but thanks to the planning of ross and stone, our structures are probably sophisticated enough to not have to rely too heavily on a hard-headed mid. to illustrate the point, none of those guys you mentioned made the all australian team (bartel due to injury, probably). instead, you had 'tough' midfielders like swan, watson, kennedy and s. thomson who aren't necessarily kamikaze type players but hard at it, uncompromising players who win the footy and can turn a game on their own. then there are players like ablett, pendelbury and dangerfield are aren't known for the toughness but for their ballwinning and usage. at the end of the day, if we're winning it out of the middle and our structures don't allow the opposition first use of the ball, then perhaps those kamikaze type players aren't needed.

fair argument

and you probably have me sold, although I would argue that both bartel and selwood were hampered by injury and suspension. I guess maybe im looking for a somewhat antiquated notion of a fearless mid who would run through brick walls and smash through contests. Possibly with the rule changes of the last few years i.e holding the ball rule, diving and the ball and hitting players legs being outlawed, head is sacrosanct these types of players are going to become outlawed out of the game.

Its a shame if I look at some of my all time favourit players:
Voss
Kirk
J. Bolton
Archer

these guys were fearless (in bolton's case still is), I wonder though how they would go if they were just starting out today, none were the most athletically talented players, they had to get by with toughness and determination, but now days they would probably spend most of their time in the tribunal halls or giving away free kicks

 

[riffraff]

fair argument

and you probably have me sold, although I would argue that both bartel and selwood were hampered by injury and suspension. I guess maybe im looking for a somewhat antiquated notion of a fearless mid who would run through brick walls and smash through contests. Possibly with the rule changes of the last few years i.e holding the ball rule, diving and the ball and hitting players legs being outlawed, head is sacrosanct these types of players are going to become outlawed out of the game.

Its a shame if I look at some of my all time favourit players:
Voss
Kirk
J. Bolton
Archer

these guys were fearless (in bolton's case still is), I wonder though how they would go if they were just starting out today, none were the most athletically talented players, they had to get by with toughness and determination, but now days they would probably spend most of their time in the tribunal halls or giving away free kicks

Ballas as small as he is does that, Mayne does it. I recall him late in the Geelong final run through and take 3 defenders down and split the pack in half to allow Pav to kick a goal. De boer regularly does it. Clancee is great at busting through as is Suban. Those players you mentioned built that status on a whole career playing in a successful side that got noticed. Im thinking in a few years time you might be able to add some of our guys to your list of hard players you admire. I'v already added them to mine and don't think we have a problem with grunt and hardness around the ground. Doing better than matching it with Geelong in a final had me sold.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

fair argument

and you probably have me sold, although I would argue that both bartel and selwood were hampered by injury and suspension. I guess maybe im looking for a somewhat antiquated notion of a fearless mid who would run through brick walls and smash through contests. Possibly with the rule changes of the last few years i.e holding the ball rule, diving and the ball and hitting players legs being outlawed, head is sacrosanct these types of players are going to become outlawed out of the game.

Its a shame if I look at some of my all time favourit players:
Voss
Kirk
J. Bolton
Archer

these guys were fearless (in bolton's case still is), I wonder though how they would go if they were just starting out today, none were the most athletically talented players, they had to get by with toughness and determination, but now days they would probably spend most of their time in the tribunal halls or giving away free kicks

well, in the context of our needing kamikaze players, i'm saying they're probably not a 'must have' for the dockers, but a big consideration now for recruiters would also be in their other skill set, e.g. disposal or pace. look at nick lower. if he had have been a touch faster or more agile or had better disposal, we probably would have kept him because he had that toughness. keeping possession is such a huge aspect of the game now that guys like lower and rhys palmer, who are ball winners but who turn the ball over have become more of a liability in the high-pressure, counter-attack game the leading teams play.
there's definitely no room for your thugs like campbell brown because they present too much of a risk of compromising team structures.

 

[Righteo]

Very harsh to compare Lower to Palmer BOTR.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

Ballas as small as he is does that, Mayne does it. I recall him late in the Geelong final run through and take 3 defenders down and split the pack in half to allow Pav to kick a goal. De boer regularly does it. Clancee is great at busting through as is Suban. Those players you mentioned built that status on a whole career playing in a successful side that got noticed. Im thinking in a few years time you might be able to add some of our guys to your list of hard players you admire. I'v already added them to mine and don't think we have a problem with grunt and hardness around the ground. Doing better than matching it with Geelong in a final had me sold.

you're perfectly right about reputation too. we'll look back on this team in a few years time and be able to speak about them with the same regard as other champion teams, i've no doubt about that.

it's really just the one-dimensional, reckless players who are being eradicated. i look back on barlow's injury and think how easily it could have been avoided if palmer wasn't so reckless. that's one thing that ross has brought into the team, that awareness of going into contests with your smarts intact and not recklessly. we had a few problems with friendly fire under harvey and in some ways that was the difference between old school footy and the new footy under ross. i remember that was something ross spoke about changing when he came in.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

Very harsh to compare Lower to Palmer BOTR.

it's no slight on palmer. remember how good he was? he's lost some of that, due as much to the reconstruction as to his confidence. but the comparison is simply on the level of ball-winning and disposal.