Clearance Watch

[Last of the Roys]

Winning the clearances has been one of our biggest problems for a while now. For years we have basically lived off Simon Black in this area, but if we are going to win a premiership we will need others to step up significantly.

Round 1 Lions 114 vs. West Coast 82 (at the GABBA)
- Lions 32 clearances vs. West Coast 37
- Best for us = Brennan and Power with 6 each; Rischa 4; Leunberger and Black 3 each

Round 2 Lions 107 vs. Carlton 88 (at the GABBA)
- Lions 28 clearances vs. Carlton 40
(All of these stats are from the AFL website; the Herald Sun using Champion Data had the above stat as 29 vs. 49)
- Best for us = Brennan 5 clearances; Power / Rich / Leuenberger / Rischa / Black all 3 each
- Scores from stoppages (from the HS) = Carlton beat us by 28 points

I would like to see what the clearances looked like for the first 3 quarters of each of our games - I think they would be far more one sided.


These are what I think are some of our problems in this area:

• the majority of our players are in a far too defensive mindset around the clearances - I think this might be a coaching issue;
• that said, we don't do a good job at stopping our opponents getting clearances. I think this is because it's extremely hard to do - there aren't that many excellent taggers in the AFL. I also think it is because a lot of our players lack pace;
• our players are often reactionary around the clearance / waiting for the ball to come to them rather than tacking the risk and attempting to run onto the ball. I think we need to have a far more attacking mindset in that regard;
• around the ground we are simply not getting numbers to the contest. How many times in the first two rounds have we seen no Brisbane player / or a significantly outnumbered Brisbane player in a clearance situation? (The exception to this of course has been our 4th quarters);
• our lack of initial pace seems to be hurting us in this area - all of our key clearance players at the moment (Black, Power, Rischa, Rich, Brennan, and our Rucks), with the exception of Brennan, lack an initial burst of speed;
• our Rucks haven't really helped the situation so far - they need to be far more aggressive towards winning the clearance after they have contested the hit-out;

Also, I'm not sure how the move of making Patfull a tagger has affected us in this area - to know that you would really have to watch a replay closely to see what impact he has had around the stoppages. I personally suspect it has been a negative for us - Kerr seemed to be running rampant at times last week, and I'm not sure about Patfull's impact against Carlton either.

I think we should try to play Brennan on the ball for 3/4 of the game like he did against West Coast (against Carlton it seemed like he only went into the middle in the last quarter). He is clearly our best hope for the future. I would also like to see players like Rockliff, Polkinghorne, and Proud get an opportunity to make a difference (not all at once obviously).

 

[Grimreepah]

Good idea for a thread. It almost feels like our season will come down to this stat. Will be interesting to get a measure on any trends.

 

[whatboutbob]

I would also like to see players like Rockliff, Polkinghorne, and Proud get an opportunity to make a difference (not all at once obviously).

*cough* Harwood *cough*

 

[Nuggo]

Great thread.

Will be interesting to see the mechanics of the clearances on paper (so to speak). Who was playing at the stoppages and centre bounces each quarter. Who had more of a defensive role....how many turnovers were created. How many clearances were from handballs or just slamming it on the boot to clear it. Hard to keep track of it all but we should be able to get an idea of what is happening.

 

[chopperduck]

Watching the replay on 72 now and we were really playing with a 2nd string midfield. Patfull did an ok job on Murphy. He still got touches but patfull was on his hammer and didn't let him dispose of it well. Patfull was also aweful with his disposal.

It wasn't til Simpson went forward that forced us to move patfull to him which freed up Murphy that the blues midfield got on top. In the 4th when we just went head to head with their mids with our top line mids we really got on top, but at nearly half time I haven't seen black, power, rich line up in the middle at the same time. Has been a lot of patfull, stiller, rich, redden. Not a great clearance setup.

 

[Vidman]

Good idea for a thread. It almost feels like our season will come down to this stat. Will be interesting to get a measure on any trends.

Bookmark this.

It seems that we have one of if not the most potent forward lines in the comp. We have an extremely solid defence from last year that has a couple of new additions that will become one of the best defences. All we need to do is break even in the midfield to be grand finalists. In fact I'd put money on the fact that if we will never lose this season if we win the clearances.

 

[Quigley]

I think I have been on this hobby horse for a few years. A few things:

- As noted by LOTRs we followed players in the ruck too much. How can you get the ball if you are behind. The whole strategy with a lot of our players seems to be to allow the opposition to get teh ball and tackle them. Stiller and Rischa are big offenders in this area. Want the ball and try and get it.

- Our sweepers were nowhere to be seen in a lot of clearance situations. If the ball popped out of the ruck area it was always to a Carlton sweeper and we were nowhere near it.

- We are puting our second and third string midfielders in the ruck contest too much I think. Fair enough to give them a run on the ball to build up their experience as the year goes on but don't put them all in their together. Our first string guys need to build confidence and conhesion.

- Black has been down and the young guys who were going to step up haven't yet. A lot of work was put into Polks and Rich in the preseason and Polks form hasn't warranted selection and Rich has been well held so far.

- Despite not being much of a clearance guy I think Johnstone not being in teh middle has taken away a guy the opposition have had to worry about.

- Buchanan and Staker were supposed to help for periods in the middle. It hasn't happened so far.

I agree with bob that Harwood might not be far away. Rocky also does okay hanging around the packs and sweeps probably better than our guys have done so far. Bartlett I also think would do this well and I think we could see him in the second half of the year.

 

[chopperduck]

After watching more of the replay this morning it was very interesting to see how we set up. As i noted, a lot of the time we were using a pretty average midfield, consisting of Patfull, Stiller, Riska, Rich, Redden etc. We never seemed to have all our top guys in at once, and it does seem that this might be a tactic Voss is using. Rich was the most common one in the middle, and was often the inside mid with the likes of Patfull and Stiller following, and he actually did a really good job in the 3rd quarter, Rich was in and under and getting his hands on it, but just didn't have the supporting players or time to dispose of the ball well. Can't remember who was on him, but to his credit he held Rich well. Rich came to life in the 4th when he had better players like Power and Black around him and he was able to find that space.

Against a star studded midfield, this was a really bad setup, but looking back, we did a very good job in the first half with a real 2nd rate midfield. I think the lose of Adcock really stuff up our match ups, and then again in the 3rd when we had to re adjust from the blues changing their match ups. Adcock was playing very well, and we had Drummond freed up, but he had to play defensively in the 2nd and 3rd quarters with Adcock gone. Raines relieved him in the 4th and with Patfull back in defense and Power going head to head with Murphy, Drummond was back to being freede up and kicking the ball into the 50. We also had Brennan, Rich and Black in the middle a lot as well, so we were much better in the clearances and probably with fresher mids.

It is still something we need to fix, but it is the Riskas, Reddens, Stillers that need to go after the ball more in the middle. We can't have 2 of our 3 mids in the middle playing negative roles with only 1 actually going after the ball, this is why our players are trailing their opponents to the ball. 1 vs 3 doesn't work to win the clearances, and when we just put our mids vs their mids in the last we got our share of clearances.

 

[whatboutbob]

- We are puting our second and third string midfielders in the ruck contest too much I think. Fair enough to give them a run on the ball to build up their experience as the year goes on but don't put them all in their together. Our first string guys need to build confidence and conhesion.

What's too much though? We all know clearances are our biggest deficiency, with our only great clearance player nearing retirement (*sniff*).

We're 2 from 2. For me, "too much" is the amount of time that causes us to lose games. Anything just less than that is optimising education. It seems (again, from someone who has yet to see a game live this year) that Voss is putting more emphasis on improving the team than on percentage.

Somewhat contradicting myself though, I do take your point about needing some experience in there to help with the structures, but I'd suggest that Vossy knows more about clearances than I ever will. So if he thinks this is the way to go about improving the team, then I'll accept it.

 

[Quigley]

Carrazzo matched up on Rich most of the night I think.

Someone commented to me yesterday that Ball would have been very handy for the Lions. Bloody oath he would have but sometimes things just don't align.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Another stat that helps in clearances. I believe (from the Herald-sun) our hitouts to advantage against the Blues were 9% between the two ruckmen, with Leuwy at 0% to advantage.

Wow.

 

[Nuggo]

Another stat that helps in clearances. I believe (from the Herald-sun) our hitouts to advantage against the Blues were 9% between the two ruckmen, with Leuwy at 0% to advantage.

Wow.

Not exactly ideal......

 

[chopperduck]

i think this has as much to do with our mids as it does the ruckman. With different and younger players and most of them trailing their opponents to the contest, it ain't easy to tap it to one of our guys. I think we are better off have a set zone to tap it two depending where the bounce goes and the mids can work on getting to that area.

As was mentioned by someone else, its also up to the mids to read the ball and the tap, you can usually tell if the bounce favours one side and then just try rove their ruck's tap. Its easier said then done, but we do just seem to lack any kind of structure in our ruck contests.

 

[Grimreepah]

Another stat that helps in clearances. I believe (from the Herald-sun) our hitouts to advantage against the Blues were 9% between the two ruckmen, with Leuwy at 0% to advantage.

Wow.

My understanding is that this stat is normally pretty low, and that 15% to advantage would be a fairly good return.

 

[Ironmonger]

Yeah, we've been beaten in the ruck both weeks which has hurt us.

Scary to think what would have happened if Carlton had 40 clearances and Judd had been there to get on the end of them.

Honestly, I thought that at times our players were a little slow to get their heads over the ball. There were some honourable exceptions but in general I think the Carlton midfield were quicker to dive on it and take possession whereas our boys hesitated at times.

Maybe we have too clear a distinction between ball-winners and outside midfielders? Perhaps clearances should be everyone's job.

 

[pauldrc]

Really looked at the ground like we were getting smashed in the ruck, so I was surprised when I saw the stats....but it really is the to advantage ones that really count in the end....

 

[Jorgo]

My understanding is that this stat is normally pretty low, and that 15% to advantage would be a fairly good return.

From 2009 Stats. Hitouts to advantage per game (average) and %.

Ranked by % and players hand selected by me so some clubs not present.

Brogan - 6.2 @ 28.5%
Fraser - 4.1 @ 24.4%
Cox - 6.2 @ 23.1%
Jolly - 7.0 @ 22.6%
Sandilands - 7.4 @ 22.5%
Gardiner - 4.3 @ 21.0%
Clark - 4.1 @ 18.8%
Ryder - 3.7 @ 18.2%
McIntosh - 4.1 @ 17.5%
Kreuzer - 3.0 @ 17.5%
Leuie - 2.3 @ 13.7%

So 15% would be ok. But the elite ruckman are getting a bit more than that.

 

[Grimreepah]

From 2009 Stats. Hitouts to advantage per game (average) and %.

Ranked by % and players hand selected by me so some clubs not present.

Brogan - 6.2 @ 28.5%
Fraser - 4.1 @ 24.4%
Cox - 6.2 @ 23.1%
Jolly - 7.0 @ 22.6%
Sandilands - 7.4 @ 22.5%
Gardiner - 4.3 @ 21.0%
Clark - 4.1 @ 18.8%
Ryder - 3.7 @ 18.2%
McIntosh - 4.1 @ 17.5%
Kreuzer - 3.0 @ 17.5%
Leuie - 2.3 @ 13.7%

So 15% would be ok. But the elite ruckman are getting a bit more than that.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

 

[Jorgo]

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Wasn't trying to correct or be a smart arse Sorry if it came across that way.

I was interested in your comment so went hunting through my Prospectus for stats to find out for myself and thought you'd be interested.

 

[Grimreepah]

Wasn't trying to correct or be a smart arse Sorry if it came across that way.

It's all good.

I'm surprised that Fraser is so high.

 

[Lehban]

Our disposal always seems rushed at clearances where other teams mid fields seem to break free handball it around a couple of times before they chose an option (They use the ball better when they get it). We seem to win the ball by bashing it out of there or tacking an opponent and the ball spilling free. Then its maybe one handball out to free player to clear it quickly. Are we trying to move the ball to quick out of the middle? We just look so unorganized.

 

[Lehmo87]

This thread seems as though it ties in nicely to blynd_freddie's thread about Fitness Vs Skill levels and the conversation that ensued. I'm normally a fairly calm person on the outside so it was unusual to find me ranting and raving at the TV in the thrid quarter wondering if we did in fact have a midfield for the centre bounces because that was the place our poor clearance work was most evident. Now that I have had a chance to reflect on the past two weeks, I find it very unusual that we have a team that gets flogged so badly out of the centre clearances so I wonder if the theories proposed in the aforementioned thread has any relevance to this converstion.

 

[Last of the Roys]

Our disposal always seems rushed at clearances where other teams mid fields seem to break free handball it around a couple of times before they chose an option (They use the ball better when they get it). We seem to win the ball by bashing it out of there or tacking an opponent and the ball spilling free. Then its maybe one handball out to free player to clear it quickly. Are we trying to move the ball to quick out of the middle? We just look so unorganized.

After watching the replay of the Carlton game I definitely noticed this a lot too. I think its about the number of players we are getting to contests and the numbers that are in an attacking mindset / running forward for the handball.

It is still something we need to fix, but it is the Riskas, Reddens, Stillers that need to go after the ball more in the middle. We can't have 2 of our 3 mids in the middle playing negative roles with only 1 actually going after the ball, this is why our players are trailing their opponents to the ball. 1 vs 3 doesn't work to win the clearances, and when we just put our mids vs their mids in the last we got our share of clearances.

I completely agree with this assessment.

A couple of other things I noticed from the replay
- Patfull stopped Murphy about 2 or 3 times getting a clearance, but didn't really get anything himself at stoppages. That probably isn't good enough if you are playing so much time on the ball. (I am not having a go at Patfull - he has been wonderful for us, and tagging is an extremely difficult art to perfect).
- Brennan was in for the centre clearances only about 40% of the time (a fair bit of the 1st and 4th, but nothing in the 2nd or 3rd quarters), which seems a little strange (you would think he should be there 75% of the time).

As for the Rucks, I also noticed the 'to advantage' stat. I think Carlton had a huge number - something like 33%. However, I think on this occasion the discrepancy between us and them had more to do with our mids not even getting to where 90% of all hit-outs tend to land. So when we won the hit-out to a reasonable position there would be no Lions mid running on to it.

 

[chopperduck]

I also agree last of the roys. Patfull was probably worth doing with Murphy, as he was the danger man in the middle, and Patfull really hampered his influence on the game. Still got touches, but not many kicks or clearances. We did sacrifice a midfield spot to do that taggging job though.

I think the loss of Adcock was the result of Brennan not getting in the middle as much either, we really need to get Brennan playing the center bounces. Id much rather see a Brennan, Rich, Redden or Riska midfield over a Rich, Patfull, Stiller, Redden or Riska midfield. IMO, we just can't have Riska, Patfull and Stiller taking up inside mid roles when they are playing run with roles, which all these players were doing vs the Blues. Weren't all hard tags, but i think we are better off letting our 3 mids go for the ball.

 

[3KZ is Football]

These are what I think are some of our problems in this area:


*the majority of our players are in a far too defensive mindset around the clearances - I think this might be a coaching issue;

Spot on. Our midfielders need to make the ball the object. Too often they are being reactive rather than proactive at the stop plays.


*that said, we don't do a good job at stopping our opponents getting clearances. I think this is because it's extremely hard to do - there aren't that many excellent taggers in the AFL. I also think it is because a lot of our players lack pace;

This problem is related to the first. Particularly at the centre bounces, we set up wide of our opponents, as if we are going to go after the ball, then we sit back for the crucial moments that see our opponents gain position and then clear.


*our players are often reactionary around the clearance / waiting for the ball to come to them rather than tacking the risk and attempting to run onto the ball. I think we need to have a far more attacking mindset in that regard;

As Above


*around the ground we are simply not getting numbers to the contest. How many times in the first two rounds have we seen no Brisbane player / or a significantly outnumbered Brisbane player in a clearance situation? (The exception to this of course has been our 4th quarters);

Lack of run was noted last year by many. It also was apparent at times when we had posession in the back half and were looking for options up the field.

*our lack of initial pace seems to be hurting us in this area - all of our key clearance players at the moment (Black, Power, Rischa, Rich, Brennan, and our Rucks), with the exception of Brennan, lack an initial burst of speed;

As above

*our Rucks haven't really helped the situation so far - they need to be far more aggressive towards winning the clearance after they have contested the hit-out;

Which is why a fit and firing Charman is a better ruck option than Leuenberger, who sems a bit timid at times.

I would also like to see players like Rockliff, Polkinghorne, and Proud get an opportunity to make a difference (not all at once obviously).

A very thoughtful post Last of the Roys and spot on in every regard.

Go Lions!