comparision

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Stiffy, wouldn't want either player. Harris yesterday displayed wonderful foot and hand skills, but like Mitchell he's slow.
The players who blew Port and the game apart were Harvey and Wells. Their pace, to run through the lines, was something to see.
Yes we need a hard at it type midfielder, but someone with some toe, not a drafthorse.

You can't have all the bloody olympic sprinters in the side.

Yes Harvey and wells killed Port BUT who got the ball out of the centre. It was the likes of Harris and Simpson who are not speed demons.

Pace is overrated. Yes I would live us to have a lot more pace BUT there is a place for a midfielder with "normal" pace and good football nous. Give me Harris and Mitchell as my centerman any day. Harris especially I rate highly as an inside midfielder and real hunter. His foot and hand skills are fantastic.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by RaDaR ReiLLy
Rightio. Cheers

And wishful thinking! Sam Mitchell my ar se! We will never get Sam Mitchell..its like that barbie doll you wanted for Christmas but never got.

Daniel Harris is a possiblilty. Hes got speed.

I think we are all forgetting the forgotten man, Jacob Schuback. He is a carbon copy of Mark Bickley. When he gets game time and when the AFC realise he needs to play AFL footy now.

We won't get either of the 2 players but I was using them as the type of player that we need to get.

The more I watch Schuback the more he reminds me of Simon Goodwin. He has similar running style, moves the same and also has a thumping left foot kick. To me Schuey seems more amd more like a smaller version of Goody. i am not saying he will be as good ad Goody but I he reminds me of Goody with his movement.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
You can't have all the bloody olympic sprinters in the side.

Yes Harvey and wells killed Port BUT who got the ball out of the centre. It was the likes of Harris and Simpson who are not speed demons.

Pace is overrated. Yes I would live us to have a lot more pace BUT there is a place for a midfielder with "normal" pace and good football nous. Give me Harris and Mitchell as my centerman any day. Harris especially I rate highly as an inside midfielder and real hunter. His foot and hand skills are fantastic.

Pace in the midfield can't be overated.
Hardness in the midfield can't be overated.
Does it have to be that to be hard at it, you have to be slow.
Why can't we have a hard at it, with some toe - like a Colin Sylvia, Walters, Cooney...

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
We won't get either of the 2 players but I was using them as the type of player that we need to get.

The more I watch Schuback the more he reminds me of Simon Goodwin. He has similar running style, moves the same and also has a thumping left foot kick. To me Schuey seems more amd more like a smaller version of Goody. i am not saying he will be as good ad Goody but I he reminds me of Goody with his movement.

Its been a real shame not getting SANFL games on Foxtel.
But the puzzling thing with Schuback is that he's been talked up around the club for 3 years, yet isn't getting a lot of AFL game experience, and doesn't appear to be burning in the SANFL?
Am I missing something?

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Pace in the midfield can't be overated.
Hardness in the midfield can't be overated.
Does it have to be that to be hard at it, you have to be slow.
Why can't we have a hard at it, with some toe - like a Colin Sylvia, Walters, Cooney...

Who is Walters?????? Do you mean Beau waters thats gone to WC?????? If you do he is not overly quick either but he would make my side any day. Talk about tough nut and a hard at it courageous player. THat bloke is a Glenn Archer clone.

Cooney is far from hard at it. Sylvia is the closest thing to Ricciuto. That bloke is a GUN.

You need top 5 picks for that sort of player. We don't have that so we have to make the best of what we have.

I really don't understand you "obssesion" with pace in the midifield. Surely an engine roon that consists of anywhere from 8-10 players can't have a couple of hard tough nuts that will get the footy and use it but have "normal" pace. Roger James is not the quickest bloke going around but he is one hell of a footballer. Don't tell me you wouldn't like someone like him in your side.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Its been a real shame not getting SANFL games on Foxtel.
But the puzzling thing with Schuback is that he's been talked up around the club for 3 years, yet isn't getting a lot of AFL game experience, and doesn't appear to be burning in the SANFL?
Am I missing something?

Personally, I rate the kid. Ever since I have seen him play for Westies for the first time I walked away very excited about his future. He played in th emidfield and was rotated to HFF. He got something like 25 touches and kicked 3 goals. One of those goals was an absolute ripper where he kicked it on the run from 65 meters out half way up the post.

I get the feeling AFC want to play him as a HBF to ease him into AFL footy. Considering how many HBF we have he is in one big queue. I would play him as I think he will give us something in th elong run. Whether he plays as a forward crumber, HBF or in th emidfield I am not fussed. He has good pace and a thumping kick, something we could really do with.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Who is Walters?????? Do you mean Beau waters thats gone to WC?????? If you do he is not overly quick either but he would make my side any day. Talk about tough nut and a hard at it courageous player. THat bloke is a Glenn Archer clone.

Cooney is far from hard at it. Sylvia is the closest thing to Ricciuto. That bloke is a GUN.

You need top 5 picks for that sort of player. We don't have that so we have to make the best of what we have.

I really don't understand you "obssesion" with pace in the midifield. Surely an engine roon that consists of anywhere from 8-10 players can't have a couple of hard tough nuts that will get the footy and use it but have "normal" pace. Roger James is not the quickest bloke going around but he is one hell of a footballer. Don't tell me you wouldn't like someone like him in your side.

My obssession with pace stems from the fact IMO we are not a quick side player for player. We have all at various times talked about it.
It gets hilited when Macleod plays poorly, we become noticably stagnant in the midfield. Macca runs the lines. Benny Hart does the same in the backline, and boy when he and smart are not there, boy do we notice the lack of run.
IMO we just need an injection of more pace into the side, through the midfield, whilst also needing a bit more grunt.
Thats where I'm coming from.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
He has good pace and a thumping kick, something we could really do with.

My point exactly

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
My obssession with pace stems from the fact IMO we are not a quick side player for player. We have all at various times talked about it.
It gets hilited when Macleod plays poorly, we become noticably stagnant in the midfield. Macca runs the lines. Benny Hart does the same in the backline, and boy when he and smart are not there, boy do we notice the lack of run.
IMO we just need an injection of more pace into the side, through the midfield, whilst also needing a bit more grunt.
Thats where I'm coming from.

Yes but we have injected some pace into the side with Jericho. Reilly runs the lines, Schuback has pace and Johncock is quick. Yes we need more pace but say come draft time and its time to pick. We need an in and under hunter with good skills and we need pace. One player has pace and is not a real hunter and the other is a real hunter with wonderfull foot and hand skills, great footy brain and "normal" pace. Personally, I would go for the the "hunter" because we are in a greater need of that type of player. Bicks has left a HUGE hole in our midfield and the only other real hunter in Bode is not getting game time.

 

[spindoctor]

Stiffy...you're saying pace is overrated, but you continually give crap to Rutten for not having enough pace?

Look at Sav Rocca...he was one of the best forwards in the 1990s, and I wouldn't say he ever had much pace.

Strength and marking power at full-forward are very valuable if you want a key target.

If you want a leading type, you go for Brendan Fevola. If you want a stand-and-deliver contested mark, you go for Ben Rutten.

We could do with a big body to either mark or bring the ball down at the hotspot on the full-forward line. Rutten is our best bet.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Yes but we have injected some pace into the side with Jericho. Reilly runs the lines, Schuback has pace and Johncock is quick. Yes we need more pace but say come draft time and its time to pick. We need an in and under hunter with good skills and we need pace. One player has pace and is not a real hunter and the other is a real hunter with wonderfull foot and hand skills, great footy brain and "normal" pace. Personally, I would go for the the "hunter" because we are in a greater need of that type of player. Bicks has left a HUGE hole in our midfield and the only other real hunter in Bode is not getting game time.

I agree completely with that desire. But you must remember Mitchell doesn't have normal pace. Yes I'm happy with a hunter, with normal pace. I would put Roo in the category as neither quick, or slow, but someone with a huge engine, and normal pace.
Given that Roo is 28, Goody is thereabouts, we need to planning at least 3 years in advance to replace them.

Bicks has left a huge hole, but "Sugar" his direct style, and accurate kicking, is sorely missed. Now there was a hunter with normal pace and a real footy brain.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by spindoctor
Stiffy...you're saying pace is overrated, but you continually give crap to Rutten for not having enough pace?

Look at Sav Rocca...he was one of the best forwards in the 1990s, and I wouldn't say he ever had much pace.

Strength and marking power at full-forward are very valuable if you want a key target.

If you want a leading type, you go for Brendan Fevola. If you want a stand-and-deliver contested mark, you go for Ben Rutten.

We could do with a big body to either mark or bring the ball down at the hotspot on the full-forward line. Rutten is our best bet.

I like something about Rutten as well.
However as good a physique as he has, to me he doesn't play in that physical manner.
Tends to use his good footy brain, and not his braun.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by spindoctor
Stiffy...you're saying pace is overrated, but you continually give crap to Rutten for not having enough pace?

Look at Sav Rocca...he was one of the best forwards in the 1990s, and I wouldn't say he ever had much pace.

Strength and marking power at full-forward are very valuable if you want a key target.

If you want a leading type, you go for Brendan Fevola. If you want a stand-and-deliver contested mark, you go for Ben Rutten.

We could do with a big body to either mark or bring the ball down at the hotspot on the full-forward line. Rutten is our best bet.

There is a thing called "normal pace" and "slow pace". I have said that Rutten cannot be a defender because he is slow and his opponents would run off his easily especially at FB. I have said all along that he should be played at FF but the problem there is also his lack of pace when the opposition has the ball. He runs his heart out trying to run them down from behind but never gets there. I still think he could be a handy FF but if we are going to play him at FF we need to surround him with quick smalls that will do the chasing and tackling when the opposition has the ball.

As a defender you need pace because you have to follow your opponent more than you do as a forward.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18


I really don't understand you "obssesion" with pace in the midifield. Surely an engine roon that consists of anywhere from 8-10 players can't have a couple of hard tough nuts that will get the footy and use it but have "normal" pace. Roger James is not the quickest bloke going around but he is one hell of a footballer. Don't tell me you wouldn't like someone like him in your side.

I agree that a good mid-field is a combination of hard inside ballgetters and quick outside finishers.

They don't all have to be quick, but gee I'd love to have a finisher with real speed like Harvey added to ours. He carved Port up yesterday.

 

[spindoctor]

I'm amazed he seems to have been forgotten after such a good debut last year, while our forwards have struggled generally.

I want him in full-forward right now, rather than later. He is physically and mentally ready.

Give him a full game at full-forward, and give him several games there to find his feet. Don't move him to the backlines. Don't move him out to CHF. Just let him play where we want him to play.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by macca23
I agree that a good mid-field is a combination of hard inside ballgetters and quick outside finishers.

They don't all have to be quick, but gee I'd love to have a finisher with real speed like Harvey added to ours. He carved Port up yesterday.

He just showed the value of a quick ball getter.
IMO we have Stiffy, and Macca, yes potentially Schuback(?), but still could do with one more quick midfielder.
How would it have been with the above quartet, and Daniel Wells? or adding Harvey

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
I agree completely with that desire. But you must remember Mitchell doesn't have normal pace. Yes I'm happy with a hunter, with normal pace. I would put Roo in the category as neither quick, or slow, but someone with a huge engine, and normal pace.
Given that Roo is 28, Goody is thereabouts, we need to planning at least 3 years in advance to replace them.

Bicks has left a huge hole, but "Sugar" his direct style, and accurate kicking, is sorely missed. Now there was a hunter with normal pace and a real footy brain.

I agree Mitchell is REALLY slow BUT he is the best clearence midfielder in the comp IMHO. If I had the choice between him and Daniel Harris I would take Harris. There is just something about Harro that I really love.

If you don't hve pace you got to make sure that you mhave a HUGE engine.

You just agreed with my point when mentioning Sugar and to a lesser extent Bickley. Now there are 2 blokes who were not quick, who were real huntes and in Sugar's case a midfielder who used his disposal. Nopw if we could draft a player that turns out to be as good as Kane Johnson, I would be laughing all the way to the bank. Interestingly enough Sugar slipped to #27 in the draft because recruiters thought that he would be too slow and might not adjust well from playing CHB in TAC Cup to AFL midfielder. how wrong were they??????

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
I like something about Rutten as well.
However as good a physique as he has, to me he doesn't play in that physical manner.
Tends to use his good footy brain, and not his braun.

One of the beauties of footy is that there can be so many different opinions on the same topic. We all see it differently.

I see Rutten as a very strong, skilled, player with good footy smarts that is currently too slow for AFL footy. The fact that he has played so few games so far is testimony to that.

He's definitely too great a risk for the backlines, and even in his debut game when playing FF, he had to eventually be taken off because of his inability to chase his opponent, in spite of kicking 3 goals.

He'll probably get one more year, but if he doesn't speed up, and I doubt that he will, that'll probably be it for him.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by spindoctor
I'm amazed he seems to have been forgotten after such a good debut last year, while our forwards have struggled generally.

I want him in full-forward right now, rather than later. He is physically and mentally ready.

Give him a full game at full-forward, and give him several games there to find his feet. Don't move him to the backlines. Don't move him out to CHF. Just let him play where we want him to play.

Stiffy said earlier that the AFC have a high opinion of Rutten.
Given that this board questions his pace and ability to play any position other than FF. What is the basis then to the apparent optimism within the AFC?

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
I like something about Rutten as well.
However as good a physique as he has, to me he doesn't play in that physical manner.
Tends to use his good footy brain, and not his braun.

I agree. If he was as physical as his physique suggests he would be a top player. I would still like him at FF tho. Collingwood aren't blessed with quick defenders. Having Rutten planted at FF would give us a target and allow Carey to roam around and do his own special stuff.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I agree Mitchell is REALLY slow BUT he is the best clearence midfielder in the comp IMHO. If I had the choice between him and Daniel Harris I would take Harris. There is just something about Harro that I really love.

If you don't hve pace you got to make sure that you mhave a HUGE engine.

You just agreed with my point when mentioning Sugar and to a lesser extent Bickley. Now there are 2 blokes who were not quick, who were real huntes and in Sugar's case a midfielder who used his disposal. Nopw if we could draft a player that turns out to be as good as Kane Johnson, I would be laughing all the way to the bank. Interestingly enough Sugar slipped to #27 in the draft because recruiters thought that he would be too slow and might not adjust well from playing CHB in TAC Cup to AFL midfielder. how wrong were they??????

Harris did get caught a lot yesterday, but his quick hands and good disposal skills got the ball off.
Last comment on Mitchell - where's his side on the ladder?
Johnson IMO is not slow, would be alot quicker than mitchell, and like you if I could get a similar type, would be laughing.
People also forget how good a contested mark he was for his height.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Stiffy said earlier that the AFC have a high opinion of Rutten.
Given that this board questions his pace and ability to play any position other than FF. What is the basis then to the apparent optimism within the AFC?

I think its his football brain and his reading of the play. Last year I have often said that Rutten has this fantastic side to his game where he will run at the bouncing ball and pick it up so well. He just has that footy brain that tells hhim what will happen next. His awareness in ciongested situations is second to none IMHO. When it comes to hadballing in cingested situations he has the quickest pair of hands in our side. His footy brain really is fantastic. I have always said that if we could get Perrie's athletic abiliy and pace and "install" it into Rutten would have a top player.

I know its a big call but IMHO Rutten is one of the smartest footballers on our list if not THE smartest. You can't teach footy smart and Rutten has buketloads of it.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Harris did get caught a lot yesterday, but his quick hands and good disposal skills got the ball off.
Last comment on Mitchell - where's his side on the ladder?
Johnson IMO is not slow, would be alot quicker than mitchell, and like you if I could get a similar type, would be laughing.
People also forget how good a contested mark he was for his height.

Harris is a footballer with fantastic skills and good footy brain.

Regarding Mitchell, I think its hardly his fault that Hawks are struggling. You take Mitchell and Crawford out of that midfield and there is nothing there (apart from maybe Lekkas). Mitchell is having a good season and is leading the AFL in clearences. He still needs to build his engine room. Still lacking in that department.

Kane Johnsons is not slow but he was not quick either. Kane Johnson is a footballer. Fullstop. Nick Stevens has pace, Kane Johnson doesn't, I think you know who I would pick out of the 2

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I think its his football brainand his reading of the play. Last year I hae often said that Rutten has this fantastic side to his game where he will run at the bouncing ball and pick it up so well. He just has that footy brain that tells hhim what will happen next. His awareness in ciongested situations is second to none IMHO. When it comes to hadballing in cingested situations he has the quickest pair of hands in our side. His footy brain really is fantastic. I have always said that if we could get Perrie's athletic abiliy and pace and "install" it into Rutten would have a top player.

I know its a big call but IMHO Rutten is one of the smartest footballers on our list if not THE smartest. You can't teach footy smart and Rutten has buketloads of it.

Then give that very good summation, would you prefer a footy smart player who is slow, and can get and do things with the ball, or a player like Biglands who has good pace for a bigman, but can't get or do anything with the ball.
Is he that much slower (and i have always questioned the boards assessment of his pace)than S.Stevens, and M.Stevens, who IMO arn't that quick either.?

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

Kane Johnsons is not slow but he was not quick either. Kane Johnson is a footballer. Fullstop. Nick Stevens has pace, Kane Johnson doesn't, I think you know who I would pick out of the 2

The one thing that you haven't said about Johnson, or have I missed it, is that apart from being a tough nut, is his incredible usage of the ball. He never wastes a crumb by hand or foot.

We miss him incredibly, as overall, delivery of that standard is not our trademark.