Crown Casino, Melbourne - Part 3

[checkraiseulite]

When you say that its a tough game to beat in the long run (the $1/$2) do you see the $2/$3 as more 'beatable' simply because players are deeper stacked? Or is the rake actually less in those bigger games?

Also in regard to rake I had a question someone might be able to help me with.
Say there is 2 people left in a pot of $30, (hence current 10% rake would take $3), but then Player 1 raises by $70 and Player 2 folds.
Does the pot now become $100 (original $30 + raise $70) and hence is the rake now $10 or does the pot remain $30 and hence rake is $3.
I only ask because if it is the former then Player 1 has effectively just lost $7 for nothing...

Yes, pretty much, often times there's just not enough money on the table to make it worth while to play other than for fun. It also tends to be a very slow game. It's a lot better now though they've increased the buy-in. I think it used to be $80 max!!

No, uncalled bets are not included for the purposes of calculating rake.

I think it's a good sign you're recognising the effect of rake on your overall profitability early on. I know a heap of players that play 20hrs+ of 2/3 a week and have no idea how much time/rake effects their hourly earnings.

Having said that I wouldn't be overly worried about it until you've played for fun for a bit and worked out whether you want to keep playing a lot. Being ruthlessly analytical from the get-go can detract from your enjoyment of the game sometimes.

 

[AustralianTom]

Sweet, thanks for all the info. Yeah i think ill just head in to the $1/$2 a couple of times to see how things go and from their make the decision on whether to take it a bit more seriously and play the $2/$3.

I do really enjoy playing with friends and I find playing a nice break from Uni, so even if I played just once or twice a week for a few hours each time breaking even-ish in the long run then I would probably continue simply because I enjoy the game... If I constantly lose then I might just go back to playing with mates.

 

[JuddsABlue]

2/3 is a much better game than 1/2. The rake is less and the pots are bigger, making a decent enough difference long term. Its also a lot more 'controlled' if thats the right word to use. People know the rules more and respect them, hands are played much more standard and you will learn an infinte amount more spending 10 hours at a 2/3 table compared to a 1/2 table. Number 1 rule at a 1/2 table for a new player is disregard everything everybody says, dont try to learn of a 1/2 player despite how smart they sound


Crown are mixing up their tournament series it seems. Theyre opening the Melbourne Champs in May with the Hachem Deep Stack Main Event ($550), then the $1k Melb Champs Main Event the following weekend. In between are the side events all starting at 2:10pm, and no events at 7pm except satties.

I love the Main Event set up with having 2 decent tournies next to each other, but hate the side events setup, I like the night events. You lose majority of the working stiff market who provide good value.

Cash games should be decent though, lots of people might stay the week for both main events.

 

[checkraiseulite]

$2/5 $500 effective.

Early in the session, villain is unknown young asian kid. Couple action players in position this hand.

I have KK in MP.

Villain raise to $25 UTG+1 and I flat. 1 other caller and we take a J73 rainbow flop. He bets $75 and I call. Other player folds.

Turn is another 7. He bets $125, I call.

River A. He shoves.. I do what?

Alternatively, he checks and I do what?

 

[Big Jono]

I 3 bet the turn but I guess that isnt the answer you are looking for.

 

[ashley12]

I 3 bet the turn but I guess that isnt the answer you are looking for.

Im assuming you mean 3bet pre, or raise turn...

---------

Gross spot, I usually just 3bet preflop but thats just me, and I see why you did it.

I think you have to call since your hand is massively under-repped though the difference between the hand you look like you have (88-TT, Jx) and the hand you have isnt much.

His value range is so small on this river (AA, JJ, AJ) that it doesnt make a heap of sense.

I call, unless I know he will value bet AQ and AK on this river, as well as barrel twice on dry boards with naked overs or overs+BD flush draw. Whether he is capable of merging his river shove range IDK...

Interesting hand btw...

 

[checkraiseulite]

what are you doing when he checks the river?

 

[ashley12]

what are you doing when he checks the river?

Umm, not exactly sure.

Its difficult without any prior history, but I am probably betting like 170 and hoping he has turned a Jx hand into a bluffcatcher on the river rather then going for a third street of value.

If he barrelled with Ax two streets, then check/called the river then good for him I guess.

We have $500 - 25 - 75 - 125 so we have $275 back, pot is $475.

Actually, I might just shove it, I originally thought we had $400+ back going into the river.

If checked too

Shove > Bet/call ~$175 >> check >>>>>>>>>> bet/fold I think...

That said, this is a great example of a hand where one decision out of the ordinary (flatting pre) can change the dynamic of the hand entirely.

 

[ashley12]

If we are playing against someone that is pretty competant, he should be aware that on a board such as J73 there arent an awful lot of draws we can have that busted that he can "bluffcatch" us with, unless we floated twice.

And if we floated twice, then that Ace actually smacks that range.

If that was the case, its highly unlikely he is ever going to turn a Jack into a bluffcatcher, so he is either going to bet it, or check/fold it.

Damn, very interesting hand.

 

[woomera_skp]

Umm, not exactly sure.

Its difficult without any prior history, but I am probably betting like 170 and hoping he has turned a Jx hand into a bluffcatcher on the river rather then going for a third street of value.

If he barrelled with Ax two streets, then check/called the river then good for him I guess.

We have $500 - 25 - 75 - 125 so we have $275 back, pot is $475.

Actually, I might just shove it, I originally thought we had $400+ back going into the river.

If checked too

Shove > Bet/call ~$175 >> check >>>>>>>>>> bet/fold I think...

That said, this is a great example of a hand where one decision out of the ordinary (flatting pre) can change the dynamic of the hand entirely.

If He checks On the River you Check as well, You will Only be called By a hand that would Beat your KK .

 

[ashley12]

If He checks On the River you Check as well, You will Only be called By a hand that would Beat your KK .

If he is a thinking player no, because we shouldn't have an ace in our hand very often, nor an overpair to the Jack like the one we have.

Therefore on the river he might try to turn a hand with a jack in it, like QJs into a bluffcatcher by checking and calling, rather then betting. If that is the case, we can valuebet.

If we are up against a non-thinking player, then I would have just reraised, or 3bet, preflop.

 

[woomera_skp]

If he is a thinking player no, because we shouldn't have an ace in our hand very often, nor an overpair to the Jack like the one we have.

Therefore on the river he might try to turn a hand with a jack in it, like QJs into a bluffcatcher by checking and calling, rather then betting. If that is the case, we can valuebet.

If we are up against a non-thinking player, then I would have just reraised, or 3bet, preflop.

It depends on the player However If you do value bet more often you would be called with a superior Hand, if a bet is warranted i would say shove or Check because a value bet Might be called with A rag, Jx Might pay you off or put you All in. Since there is $475 On the pot already you Don't want the other player of Having an option to Re-raise you All in after he checks, The cards is all out and Too many Hands can Beat you regardless of the other player you do need to respect The board 3,7,7,j,A. This is Just me though, By the way what did the other player Had i am curious Now??

 

[ashley12]

It depends on the player However If you do value bet more often you would be called with a superior Hand, if a bet is warranted i would say shove or Check because a value bet Might be called with A rag, Jx Might pay you off or put you All in. Since there is $475 On the pot already you Don't want the other player of Having an option to Re-raise you All in after he checks, The cards is all out and Too many Hands can Beat you regardless of the other player you do need to respect The board 3,7,7,j,A. This is Just me though, By the way what did the other player Had i am curious Now??

Trying to overlook the curious choices of capital letters and punctuation but anyway...

He is going to very rarely have an ace in his hand if he checks the river. Think about it, what kind of Ax hands can he have to bet the flop, bet the turn, check the river?

All the monsters would have bet the river, and I think his check/call range purely is made up of hands you beat.

If you had KJs then it would be a check, since he can still check/call with KK and QQ, and you only chop with the other jacks.

 

[checkraiseulite]

It depends on the player However If you do value bet more often you would be called with a superior Hand, if a bet is warranted i would say shove or Check because a value bet Might be called with A rag, Jx Might pay you off or put you All in. Since there is $475 On the pot already you Don't want the other player of Having an option to Re-raise you All in after he checks, The cards is all out and Too many Hands can Beat you regardless of the other player you do need to respect The board 3,7,7,j,A. This is Just me though, By the way what did the other player Had i am curious Now??

A common trait of fish is checking back when they're ahead and calling when they're behind. We're not at all deep so we're not really scared about getting bluffed off of a winning hand when vbetting if he checks.

I called pretty quickly and he had QQ, so gg me. Given stack sizes I would have shoved if checked to as well (he's not calling $190 and not $270 etc). I guess he could possibly have AA, AJ or three barrelling with AK-Ax (unlikely when I call two barrels on a pretty dry board).

Ashley has given a pretty good analysis, when he checks he's either got nothing or a bluff catcher. We're not deep enough for him to be thinking about check-raising with a monster, and there's no conceivable draws that I've missed to enable me to spazz off on the river.

 

[woomera_skp]

Trying to overlook the curious choices of capital letters and punctuation but anyway...

He is going to very rarely have an ace in his hand if he checks the river. Think about it, what kind of Ax hands can he have to bet the flop, bet the turn, check the river?

All the monsters would have bet the river, and I think his check/call range purely is made up of hands you beat.

If you had KJs then it would be a check, since he can still check/call with KK and QQ, and you only chop with the other jacks.

That is my question too, why would he Bet all the way and check on the river unless his hand improved, In the case of the river where an Ace came he either hit it or not, if he didn't and holding a Jx then you will win the hand either way but less likley he would call you if you bet anything, if he is holding 3,3 A,J OR A,7 or 7x then it would make sense for him to check so you can try to bet and steal the healthy pot to get more $$ of you, you are convinced he has a Jx but there is many other combination he could have by the river that would beat you. i am just saying Maybe it is easier to value bet even though $300 or so behind you is still decent stack but when you have $1k-$2k Stack the ball game Might be different because if you value bet and he Re-raised massively i can't see you calling with KK against this board. I have seen the Biggest stacks Lost on the river for a 5% pot size Because players Underestimate players and only restrict them to only few Hands.

 

[woomera_skp]

A common trait of fish is checking back when they're ahead and calling when they're behind. We're not at all deep so we're not really scared about getting bluffed off of a winning hand when vbetting if he checks.

I called pretty quickly and he had QQ, so gg me. Given stack sizes I would have shoved if checked to as well (he's not calling $190 and not $270 etc). I guess he could possibly have AA, AJ or three barrelling with AK-Ax (unlikely when I call two barrels on a pretty dry board).

Ashley has given a pretty good analysis, when he checks he's either got nothing or a bluff catcher. We're not deep enough for him to be thinking about check-raising with a monster, and there's no conceivable draws that I've missed to enable me to spazz off on the river.

That is exactly what i said with stack sizes, having $300 or so is basically depends on how loose the player is and Low damages, if say you both had a $1k-$2k stack you might have approcahed that more cautiously Maybe Re-riased on the flop to check the strength of His hands, Unless he was playing on scared Money few factors helped out like him Raising (Meaning he doesn't have the 7) and ACE coming on the river not the flop. If an Ace was flopped out and the other player made a continued Bet and follow up on the turn you would have evaluated your situation correct????

 

[checkraiseulite]

I don't really understand your post but yes, the deeper your are the trickier hands generally tend to play.

Deep I'm definitely raising preflop/turn.

 

[woomera_skp]

I don't really understand your post but yes, the deeper your are the trickier hands generally tend to play.

Deep I'm definitely raising preflop/turn.

Sorry for my fast post i was in a hurry and didn't recheck.

I Think i understood your angle Now you were also More committed with you stack size since it wasn't too deep.

 

[footysage]

Hi BF crown poker players. I have been a lurker in these forums for a while but I'd love to get involved more in hand discussions and the sharing of stories from Crown. You always get a few characters everytime you play.

I recently made the step up from 1/2 to 2/3 and I am not sure why I didn't do it sooner. If you can make a consistent profit at 1/2, I take my hat off to you. 2/3 has been noticeably more predictable than 1/2, which makes it much easier to play and make a profit. At 2/3, sticking to a solid game will be profitable in the long run. I don't quite have the roll to move up to 2/5. For people who did make the step up from 2/3, is there is major difference in skill levels? What roll do you think is necessary before moving up?

 

[checkraiseulite]

For people who did make the step up from 2/3, is there is major difference in skill levels? What roll do you think is necessary before moving up?

The player pool is a lot smaller so skill level depends hugely on who's at the table at any particular time. A game can go from good to bad and vice versa pretty quickly. There are good players, bad players and everything in between playing, though as a general rule you're put to more tough decisions playing 2/5, position is used better and there is more thought out bluffing. The myth that exists amongst 2/3 players that 2/5 is a crazy game where people shove every hand is not true, it often plays much nittier than 2/3. If you're making a decent clip at $2/3 I doubt you'd be completely out of your depth in most $2/5 lineups.

What roll you need depends hugely on your life circumstances. I started playing 2/5 with about an $8k poker roll, which was pretty stupid but I lived at home with my parents, had a fully paid off car, a decent amount of savings and a part time job. If you were paying life expenses out of your poker roll I would be starting with at least $25k (probably >$50k if I had no savings and a mortgage to pay). You could start taking shots at it with less though if you were proven long-term winner at $2/3.

 

[woomera_skp]

Went Three Nights During the week and Made $4k profit. ($1.1k,$1.2k,$1.7k). 2/3 is out of control at the moment. More Gamblers Than actual poker players. Was to My last $30 on the First Buy in on My third Night and Decided to challenge My self Instead of Reloading and Turned It to $1.7k in 1.5 Hours. Abit of Luck But waited for Good hands and played super Agressive. Honestly Is it me or People are Just Throwing away their Money at Poker even Had a Guy calling me for his whole $400 Stack for a gut shot.

Got Outplayed Once With A,10 on a A,8,7 board Someone shoved all in on me for $650 and the pot was only $100 so i folded My A,10 but he showed 9,10 after i folded, Sick F**k he would've probarly Got the straight too I reckon if i called. Highlight of the night for me was 4,5 Diamond suited on the button UTG raised to $25 everyone called on the table. Yeah i felt ashamed calling that till the flop Came A,2,3 HELLLLOOOO hehehe Milk the daylight out of it and pot was shipped to me after all in 3way Me 4,5 UTG AK and another Guy A4. AK Dude spat the dummy and declared he is coming after me so i took his next buy in as well $280ish with my QQ vs His AQ all in with K443J on the Board.

Is it me or have you guys relaised much More ALL-INS pre and post Flops on 2/3 poker Tables?? Also The average stacks per player has gotten Much more some tables have even more Chips than 2/5. I saw a guy on the next table who had Nearly $6-7k on 2/3 everyone on His table seems to try to get Him they even had transfer Requests from players on other tables to have a crack at him.

 

[red+black]

Jackie Glazier just won the Melb Champs Main Event. She also finished 2nd in the Joe Hachem Deep Stack.

The girl is on fire!

Popped in for 30 minutes last night to wish her well. She wasn't planning on going to the WSOP, but she might change her mind now.

 

[The Lyncha]

Hey guys quick question.
I'm thinking of heading in to crown for a game and haven't played there for about 3 years.
I was just wondering if someone could tell me what the current setup is for cash games(time charge, rake, players etc.) for 1/2 and 2/3
I think last time I played it was 40-80 buy in for 1/2 with no time charge and 50-200 and 5 time for 2/3

 

[Big Jono]

Heh, I came here to ask what the current buyin range for 1/2 was aswell

 

[JuddsABlue]

1/2 im pretty sure is 80min 120max with something absurd like 10% rake capped at $15 no time charge

2/3 is $300 max, dont know minimum. rake is 10% capped at $8? with $5 per hour time. There is some special peak hour time where they charge extra time but I dont know when that is.

Both limits are turbo, you only have 20seconds to act but can buy an extra 20 seconds for $1 that goes into the pot

Lots more 2/3 tables than any others, its probably the juciest game/easiest to beat.


Never been that convinced of Jackie, though never played with her but from afar she always looked awkward at the table. Either way shes obviously pretty decent with the last fortnight and a DSE win last year

I busted pretty quickly on day 2 QQ<AJ aipf