Cryptocurrency mega-thread

[Seeds]

Bitcoin has intrinsic monetary value. It's reasonable to treat it the same as other mined assets.

Person A buys Bitcoin at $16k
Person B thinks person A is stupid for buying Bitcoin at $16k
Person A sells Bitcoin at $100k
Person B calls person A staggeringly stupid

What intrinsic monetary value does it have other than a money laundering role for crims?

Crypto today isnt as valuable as south seas company got and it only had 4 ships. Not even close. Its value eventually went to zero omce people realised it had no intrinsic worth. It will happen to crypto too. Once people realise there is no other reason to push it up. Then it will fall to zero within days. Then we will wonder why governments never banned it in the first place.

 

[evolved2]

What intrinsic monetary value does it have other then a money laundering role for crims?

The cost of mining Bitcoin is a means of determining the value of Bitcoin. Combine that with people and corporations that are willing to buy and sell, and you have a market that's roughly equivalent to iron.

Crypto today isnt as valuable as south seas company got. Not even close. Its value went to zero. It will happen to crypto too.

You told me the same thing when Bitcoin was $16k. It's currently $105k.

 

[Angus Young]

The cost of mining Bitcoin is a means of determining the value of Bitcoin. Combine that with people and corporations that are willing to buy and sell, and you have a market that's roughly equivalent to iron.

You told me the same thing when Bitcoin was $16k. It's currently $105k.

Peter Shiff said Bitcoin had no intrinsic value when it was at 1k.

The stupid people that ignored him are very rich now.

Pick winners.

 

[Bostonian]

That pauper is back again getting all triggered over bitcoin still.

 

[Bostonian]

What intrinsic monetary value does it have other than a money laundering role for crims?

Crypto today isnt as valuable as south seas company got and it only had 4 ships. Not even close. Its value eventually went to zero omce people realised it had no intrinsic worth. It will happen to crypto too.

Apparently Governments think it's a good way to have a reserve store of wealth.

 

[Seeds]

Apparently Governments think it's a good way to have a reserve store of wealth.

And governments include plenty of people who dont have a clue about economics or want to rort the system for their own personal wealth. See trump as an example of both.

Ps. If it was a store of wealth its value would only move up with inflation. But ironically if it did that everyone would sell and it would be worthless. No one is buying crypto just to beat inflation. Its all plain greed driving crypto.

 

[Bostonian]

And governments include plenty of people who dont have a clue about economics or want to rort the system for their own personal wealth. See trump as an example of both.

Ps. If it was a store of wealth its value would only move up with inflation. But ironically if it did that everyone would sell and it would be worthless. No one is buying crypto just to beat inflation. Its all plain greed driving crypto.

Governments don't have to have a clue. Their acceptance just legitimises it's existence.

Their purchasing it and holding it improves it's market stability.

No shit anytime people buy anything with a view to make money they do it through greed.

You think the stock market isn't full of that shit too?

 

[evolved2]

And governments include plenty of people who dont have a clue about economics or want to rort the system for their own personal wealth. See trump as an example of both.

Ps. If it was a store of wealth its value would only move up with inflation. But ironically if it did that everyone would sell and it would be worthless. No one is buying crypto just to beat inflation. Its all plain greed driving crypto.

The original whitepaper doesn't define bitcoin as a hedge against inflation or store of value.

No asset moves with inflation, even more stable assets like precious metals.

I think of bitcoin as a social experiment, largely successful too. Will you still be here telling us how worthless it is when 1 bitcoin is $1,000,000?

 

[Seeds]

The original whitepaper doesn't define bitcoin as a hedge against inflation or store of value.

No asset moves with inflation, even more stable assets like precious metals.

I think of bitcoin as a social experiment, largely successful too. Will you still be here telling us how worthless it is when 1 bitcoin is $1,000,000?

Assets arent supposed to move with inflation. They are productive capital that are supposed to produce real above inflation gains but come with a risk that they may fail and all will be lost. In the long run an assets value is linked to the returns it provides to society in terms of increased production. But crypto provides nearly nothing and thus the reason i think its long run value is near zero unless somehow it turns into a store of value.

But Stores of value are supposed to have minimal risk and maintain their real purchasing value. Money is the best version of this but its not perfect as it does lose its store of value by the rate of inflation each year. If crypto was a superior source of value to money its price would rise more closely in line with inflation. Its value wouldnt fall in dollar terms but importantly it wouldnt rise much above inflation either, if at all ideally.

Crypto is a social experiment. But i dont get why you think its a success? When people make lots of money from crypto without working for it they devalue the purchasing value of everyone elses wages. Making work less valuable as a source of purchasing power. This is because Crypto doesnt produce anything. Its direct implications is a zero sum game for society. Anyone who increases their real purchasing value from it does so at the expense of others. Indirectly its a loss to society because it disincentivises people to work leading to less overall workers and thus less overall production.

And one day crypto will crash leading to heaps of people who joined near the peak to unjustly lose so much of the wealth created from their wages. Ironically at the benefit of real purchasing power of wage earners who dont own crypto.

 

[evolved2]

Assets arent supposed to move with inflation. They are productive capital that are supposed to produce real above inflation gains but come with a risk that they may fail and all will be lost. In the long run an assets value is linked to the returns it provides to society in terms of increased production. But crypto provides nearly nothing and thus the reason i think its long run value is near zero unless somehow it turns into a store of value.

But Stores of value are supposed to have minimal risk and maintain their real purchasing value. Money is the best version of this but its not perfect as it does lose its store of value by the rate of inflation each year. If crypto was a superior source of value to money its price would rise more closely in line with inflation. Its value wouldnt fall in dollar terms but importantly it wouldnt rise much above inflation either, if at all ideally.

Crypto is a social experiment. But i dont get why you think its a success? When people make lots of money from crypto without working for it they devalue the purchasing value of everyone elses wages. Making work less valuable as a source of purchasing power. This is because Crypto doesnt produce anything. Its direct implications is a zero sum game for society. Anyone who increases their real purchasing value from it does so at the expense of others. Indirectly its a loss to society because it disincentivises people to work leading to less overall workers and thus less overall production.

I think of bitcoin as a hedge against government and financial institutions. I don't trust the government to manage the economy and I don't trust banks to have my interests at heart when managing my money.

Going back to the whitepaper, bitcoin was created with the primary purpose of being peer to peer electronic cash with no reliance on third parties like financial institutions.

There are valid reasons to mistrust government and financial institutions. Some banks deny their customers the right to buy crypto using their own money.

How much control do you want government to have over your life and choices? Are we merely worker bees whose value is defined by what we contribute to the hive?

I don't see a problem with making work less valuable. That's exactly what technology should be doing - computing and AI is capable of performing many of the tasks humans do, increasingly so too.

I'm curious about your thoughts on shareholders and investment property owners.

And one day crypto will crash leading to heaps of people who joined near the peak to unjustly lose so much of the wealth created from their wages. Ironically at the benefit of real purchasing power of wage earners who dont own crypto.

I've been through several crypto crashes. Bitcoin lost 50% of its value in two days during covid, and I've been around long enough to see more than one 80% bear market bleed. Altcoins even worse.

In 2011, bitcoin dropped 99% due to Mt Gox shenanigans.

Are you expecting worse?

 

[Islam Mamdouh]

I’ve been in crypto for a few years and honestly, I get the skepticism. Early on, I thought of Bitcoin as a unique kind of tech experiment too, but over time it’s become more of a value hedge for me, especially when I see markets or governments acting unpredictably. I don’t treat it like stock or traditional investment, it’s more like a backup plan that happens to earn gains when things get rough.

 

[evolved2]

I’ve been in crypto for a few years and honestly, I get the skepticism. Early on, I thought of Bitcoin as a unique kind of tech experiment too, but over time it’s become more of a value hedge for me, especially when I see markets or governments acting unpredictably. I don’t treat it like stock or traditional investment, it’s more like a backup plan that happens to earn gains when things get rough.

That reads like a troll by someone who knows nothing about crypto. JMO.

 

[The Dice Man]

AI entered the chat. Nice one Chieerf.

 

[The Dice Man]

That reads like a troll by someone who knows nothing about crypto. JMO.

Forgive him. He joined 4 years ago and that was his first post. It's taken him a while to consider his thoughts, position and

 

[PoppedCorn]

And it has zero intrinsic value.

Staggering how stupid humanity is.

yeah
how dumb are Blackrock and JP Morgan buying something that is only good for crims

 

[evolved2]

yeah
how dumb are Blackrock and JP Morgan buying something that is only good for crims

I wonder what Seeds means by the "intrinsic value" of bitcoin, and how he determined it's worth as zero.

 

[Seeds]

I wonder what Seeds means by the "intrinsic value" of bitcoin, and how he determined it's worth as zero.

Intrinsic value is the service it provides to society beyond its mere value in terms of other assets/currencies.

Crypto serves a money laundering service for criminals. So its value is not completely zero if governments fail to shut down money laundering. What other services does crypto provide?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Intrinsic value is the service it provides to society beyond its mere value in terms of other assets/currencies.

Crypto serves a money laundering service for criminals. So its value is not completely zero if governments fail to shut down money laundering. What other services does crypto provide?

Criminals often use cash as well, Seeds.

 

[Bostonian]

yeah
how dumb are Blackrock and JP Morgan buying something that is only good for crims

To be fair they are massive crooks

 

[Bostonian]

Intrinsic value is the service it provides to society beyond its mere value in terms of other assets/currencies.

Crypto serves a money laundering service for criminals. So its value is not completely zero if governments fail to shut down money laundering. What other services does crypto provide?

So then using that definition many crypto projects provide services to society and business.

 

[Seeds]

So then using that definition many crypto projects provide services to society and business.

Like what?

 

[Seeds]

Criminals often use cash as well, Seeds.

Well yes. But they need to launder cash when it comes in big quantities.

Ps. You do realise your making an argument why crypto may be completely worthless right? If im wrong and your right then crypto is completely worthless.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Well yes. But they need to launder cash when it comes in big quantities.

Ps. You do realise your making an argument why crypto may be completely worthless right? If im wrong and your right then crypto is completely worthless.

If it’s worthless, then how can the ATO tax you on profits?

 

[PoppedCorn]

To be fair they are massive crooks

yup, they all are, everyone in that industry, no arguing that from me (fractional reserve lending etc)

but when companies like that get in
im in

those that know will continue to buy and just ignore all those that have no idea what it is, what it does and how it will be part of the new internet

DCA

 

[evolved2]

Intrinsic value is the service it provides to society beyond its mere value in terms of other assets/currencies.

Crypto serves a money laundering service for criminals. So its value is not completely zero if governments fail to shut down money laundering. What other services does crypto provide?

There's an entire legitimate global economy used by people who value decentralised money. I've paid investment advisors and paid off lost bets using crypto. I once tried to sell a car accepting payment in either bitcoin or AUD, only to have someone send me a message denigrating bitcoin.

You can pay to get your tax done using crypto, and I'm pretty sure you can buy gold using crypto.

Legitimate corporate entities including Tesla and Microstrategy have invested in bitcoin. Governments, including the US, are investing in cryptocurrency.

We're well beyond the days of crytpo existing solely as a vessel for money laundering and drug purchases. Most cryptocurrencies are far easier to trace than cash, which is why cash is the preferred method of exchange for most criminal activity.

Plenty of law abiding people like the idea of decentralised permissionless money.

The value of bitcoin as a volatile hedge against inflation and monetary debasement is the biggest drawcard for me. I find it amusing to see skeptics repeatedly call for its death, only to be proven wrong time and time again.

What will it take for you to concede defeat?