Player Watch Daniel Curtin - Debut

[NSolis]

What do we mean here by 'little support'? Curtin was matched up against the weakest attacking threat in the Brisbane team, an 18 year old 2nd gamer who is 190cm and last week played in the VFL. Fair enough to say Nicks should have found another role for him and only subbed him as a last resort but there's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting that he'd be okay to match up against Logan Morris.

 

[Eddie Murphy]

What do we mean here by 'little support'? Curtin was matched up against the weakest attacking threat in the Brisbane team, an 18 year old 2nd gamer who is 190cm and last week played in the VFL. Fair enough to say Nicks should have found another role for him and only subbed him as a last resort but there's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting that he'd be okay to match up against Logan Morris.

The little support was by not moving someone else onto Curtin’s man in deep 50, freeing Curtin higher up the field where he could utilise his excellent ball movement and be less punished for not being a 1 on 1 defender. Instead of doing that, we subbed him out at half time.

 

[Scorpus]

What do we mean here by 'little support'? Curtin was matched up against the weakest attacking threat in the Brisbane team, an 18 year old 2nd gamer who is 190cm and last week played in the VFL. Fair enough to say Nicks should have found another role for him and only subbed him as a last resort but there's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting that he'd be okay to match up against Logan Morris.

In the first goal he conceded on Morris the ball went over the back and Curtin was faced with a two on one because Hinge had let Rayner sprint into the area, and ROB who was right there did absolutely nothing to affect the contest. Rayner ended up blocking Curtin and opening the path for Morris

In the second goal against Morris he was literally being played on the goal line and Hinge, who was right there loose in front of the contest and in the best position as Curtin was shoved out in the marking contest, ball watched as Morris grabbed the ball, he laid a completely ineffective tackle and Morris goaled.

That's the non support I'm talking about. Being played deep in defense and the opposition generating plays to advantage that in the area more experienced players should be supporting

Could Curtin have done better in those moments? Sure. But he also shouldn't have been playing within the last 30 meters of the ground and other players, who were right there, should have been assisting the contest knowing Curtin was inexperienced

 

[jackster83]

Max looked at sea just as bad as Curtin yesterday IMO.

Our coaches really had a shocker.

 

[Scorpus]

Here's the second example



Curtin mistimes the spoil but the ball goes to Keane/Daniher anyway. Hinge just standing there.



Curtin is pushed away from the contest and to get to this ground ball would have to land then change direction, Hinge (who was the loose man) still stands there and ball watches



Uh oh he's slipped past because Hinge went in too late. Sure maybe Curtin shouldn't have lost position but when that happened, Hinge basically stood there while Curtin had to do a complete directional reversal to get back to affect the contest

 

[Scorpus]

Here's the first example



Ball coming in from a slow play, Curtin in a one on one with Morris. Hinge has already lost Rayner who is now goal side. There was plenty of time before this kick to be in position. Smith (also near Rayner) is minding another Brisbane player and they both work towards the goal square



Ball goes over the back, as Curtin tries to push Morris under the ball but oh, now it's a two on one because Rayner has come in with Hinge trailing (out of frame). O'Brien is basically stationary here too



Hinge's man Rayner blocks Curtin's path to affect the contest, goal

If you're having a two game player defending one on one 30m out from goal, you'd want to make bloody sure there isn't a second player coming in from the side to exploit it and make it even harder

 

[NSolis]

In the first goal he conceded on Morris the ball went over the back and Curtin was faced with a two on one because Hinge had let Rayner sprint into the area, and ROB who was right there did absolutely nothing to affect the contest. Rayner ended up blocking Curtin and opening the path for Morris

In the second goal against Morris he was literally being played on the goal line and Hinge, who was right there loose in front of the contest and in the best position as Curtin was shoved out in the marking contest, ball watched as Morris grabbed the ball, he laid a completely ineffective tackle and Morris goaled.

That's the non support I'm talking about. Being played deep in defense and the opposition generating plays to advantage that in the area more experienced players should be supporting

Could Curtin have done better in those moments? Sure. But he also shouldn't have been playing within the last 30 meters of the ground and other players, who were right there, should have been assisting the contest knowing Curtin was inexperienced

That's not a lack of support, it's just football. The ball 'went over the back' because Curtin failed to impact the contest. If that happens and your attacker gets goalside of you, you will concede a goal a lot of the time. Certainly other players could have done more, but that's always going to be the case.

This is all fine because it's his second game, but let's not pretend he got hung out to dry because he got picked in an AFL game as a defender and was expected to do some defending against another rookie player. We're looking for Curtin to make a positive impact on the game, not just to protect him from any responsibility, and he wasn't given an unreasonable assignment at all.

The correct way to view this is as a learning experience for him, which is hopefully what it will be.

 

[skam85]

I'm supremely confident that Curtin will be given the equivalent of a month of football at senior level.

So, about 15 games.

 

[MrBarry]

If Nicks doesn't rush to make the sub at half time and makes an adjustment on the field instead then we win that game yesterday imo.

It's as simple as that, it was awful coaching all round.

 

[GreyCrow]

If Nicks doesn't rush to make the sub at half time and makes an adjustment on the field instead then we win that game yesterday imo.

It's as simple as that, it was awful coaching all round.

Lets try something else

Worrell does the injury right on the half time siren

What do we do with Dan

 

[Scorpus]

That's not a lack of support, it's just football. The ball 'went over the back' because Curtin failed to impact the contest. If that happens and your attacker gets goalside of you, you will concede a goal a lot of the time. Certainly other players could have done more, but that's always going to be the case.

This is all fine because it's his second game, but let's not pretend he got hung out to dry because he got picked in an AFL game as a defender and was expected to do some defending against another rookie player. We're looking for Curtin to make a positive impact on the game, not just to protect him from any responsibility, and he wasn't given an unreasonable assignment at all.

The correct way to view this is as a learning experience for him, which is hopefully what it will be.

Only a bad coach would pick a second game player and be told to play on the last line of defense in one on ones. In all the goals Curtin conceded, he was the closest player to goal or near to it, and often one on one.

Sure he might be expected to play on Morris and do okay. Structurally, why was he the deepest player in defense playing on Ah Chee? Why was he playing back pocket on Hipwood when he conceded a free (that wasn't there)? When the ball is headed to the goal line and we have three other KPDs in the side and a ruck, why is Curtin the guy there to spoil it over the line? Why isn't he further up the ground and those deeper roles given to someone with more experience and knowledge of our system?

And if we're going to play him in that position, why are we letting the opposition engineer two on ones to his disadvantage? Why are our more experienced defenders trailing opponents and ball watching?

If you're going to put a two game player in defense and play him that way, you absolutely cannot have your more experienced defenders making it more difficult for him in contests

 

[BACCS]

The best wings in the comp are also elite at defending, Acres is a prime example atm. Curtin will need to improve his defensive game if he wants to succeed at AFL level, which I'm confident will happen as the kid is a jet. However, you can't just hide him on the field to utilise his offensive weapons without also at least expecting some defensive pressure.

He got caught out defensively on the 2nd gamer in Logan Morris yesterday for two goals where the ball should have never got over the back of the contest, he was hardly playing one on one against Daniher.

I hope that with the Worrell injury Nicks continue to back him in and persist for at least another month, get him some experience on the MCG too.

 

[NSolis]

Yeah, would be happy if Curtin was retained for next week and we back him in to improve.

 

[Scorpus]

The best wings in the comp are also elite at defending, Acres is a prime example atm. Curtin will need to improve his defensive game if he wants to succeed at AFL level, which I'm confident will happen as the kid is a jet. However, you can't just hide him on the field to utilise his offensive weapons without also at least expecting some defensive pressure.

He got caught out defensively on the 2nd gamer in Logan Morris yesterday for two goals where the ball should have never got over the back of the contest, he was hardly playing one on one against Daniher.

I hope that with the Worrell injury Nicks continue to back him in and persist for at least another month, get him some experience on the MCG too.

There's a huge difference between learning defense in easier roles (eg half back) and being sent to deep defense in your second game

Curtin was playing in a role where the only way he could impact the game was winning defensive contests

 

[BACCS]

Yeah, would be happy if Curtin was retained for next week and we back him in to improve.

I just don't understand how people thought you could just hide Curtin somewhere on the field and expect he wouldn't have to defend at all. They put him on the least threatening Brisbane forward, so clearly they were hoping Curtin could provide some rebound off HB and would be strong enough to defend if he had to. It was a poor game, s**t happens, not everyone is a star 2 games in! I much rather see him learn these lessons at AFL level though.

 

[BACCS]

There's a huge difference between learning defense in easier roles (eg half back) and being sent to deep defense in your second game

Curtin was playing in a role where the only way he could impact the game was winning defensive contests

That is absolute crap mate, sorry. He was playing on the least threatening forward in the Brisbane lineup, they didn't do that expecting he would only need to defend, but rather also provide some drive out of our D50. It was just about the least accountable role we could give him, he will learn plenty and I hope we persist with him at AFL level.

 

[Scorpus]

That is absolute crap mate, sorry. He was playing on the least threatening forward in the Brisbane lineup, they didn't do that expecting he would only need to defend, but rather also provide some drive out of our D50. It was just about the least accountable role we could give him, he will learn plenty and I hope we persist with him at AFL level.

It was s**t coaching.

As soon as we decided Curtin would play "on a player" (if that's what we did) that is license for the opposition to drag him deep into defense and make him last line. Which given Morris got both his goals from the goal square, and all the other goals were within 25m of goal, is exactly what Brisbane did

What should have happened is that Curtin plays in an area of the ground like half back/wing, and there's a changeover with our defenders if Brisbane decided to drag Curtin's half back opponent deeper. That way Curtin can't be immediately exploited in one on ones inside 50, but obviously Curtin would have to be accountable around the 50 arc.

It's not hiding him somewhere on the field, it's protecting a potential weakness and being clever with defensive structures.

Which goes back to

Curtin having those goals kicked on him is a simple case of Nicks being tactically outcoached by Fagan

Fagan saw a potential weakness and took full advantage to exploit it

If Nicks wanted to play Curtin (which seems questionable, but I'm giving him the benefit that it was 100% his decision), he should have had a better plan for where and how to play him.

Nicks fell straight into Fagan's trap and it worked very well for Brisbane

It's kinda like if a midfielder is being tagged, the first move is to bring that matchup deep inside 50. Better teams will release the tag inside 50 and let defensive structures nullify the midfielder playing forward. Worse teams will let the tagger get dominated inside 50.

 

[rabidcrow]

Burns mentioned in an interview in the past week or two that Curtin plays like a taller Birchill so they must be aware of his rebound abilities. Its so odd they say this s**t but none of it translates to their game day role...

When rebounding you still have to be able to defend and compete one on one - you don’t get a free ride.
Curtin had their 4/5 forward. It wasn’t like they chucked him in the deep end like Max had a number of times last year. Maybe he could have gone to Lohmann instead - but that’s about it


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[Burtonsgottago]

Oh ffs.

Everybody whinged when we didn't rush him in. "Why are we playing him in the sanfl and making him defend?"

Because when he plays in the AFL, he will have to defend. His offensive game is fine, needs some practise at the defensive aspects.

Yes, he coughed up 5 goals today. Needed to be subbed off.

But the kid will still be a champion. This is just what it looks like when you play the kids. Maybe give him 2 weeks in the sanfl on the best forward. Or maybe just back him in in the AFL. Either way, the kid will be fine long term.

5 goals? How many different opponents did he have?

 

[Burtonsgottago]

I saw Curtin on Franklin at certain stages during the 2007 elimination final

Let’s not forget Curtins role in that Jack Anthony goal in the prelim

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Max looked at sea just as bad as Curtin yesterday IMO.

Our coaches really had a shocker.

Our defence had one of it's worst games for the year, particularly early... yet the coaches didn't act quickly to change matchups.

Most of our defenders were struggling!

Why didn't we swap Butts on to Daniher as Keane was having his worst game for the year? Keane could then go on to Hipwood.

Curtin shouldn't be playing on the last line.

Why did it take Worrell's injury to send Jones back to add more ability lockdown?

Our coaches really struggle to act quickly on the day when needed, which is a major concern as I don't think they have the smarts.

 

[Burtonsgottago]

Sorry to unleash but the way Curtin is being used is absolute horseshit for him, his development and I can’t see how his role is actually helping the team. Playing kids on debut as the sub or subbing them is bullshit. Either make sure they have the tank to run out a game or wait until they do. You get one debut and remember it forever and there’s no way it doesn’t build resentment no matter which club it is.

Can somebody explain to me how in a very winnable game, an AFL coach leaves a near debutant to be dragged deep and forced to defend 1 on 1? Even as a neutral observer whose highest level of coaching is the under 11 reds who lost a heartbreaking elimination final in controversial circumstances, I could see exactly what Brisbane were doing. Why weren’t the magnets shifted immediately to disrupt the Lions plan and have him playing higher up the ground in a role that actually plays to his strengths of distribution and reading the play? Is he even enjoying his footy?

I can see a few have suggested the possibility a trade with us… If that materialised there’s no way it ends up being a straight swap Curtin for our 1R which is exactly was offered on draft night last year. I think that’s a tough pill for fans and AFC to swallow so unless they are prepared to accept that as the reality I can’t see how a trade gets done. I’m loathe to see players not seeing out their initial contract, destroys the integrity of the system but there’s no doubt we’re in his ear that he can be the 3rd tall behind Gov and Barrass on a HBF working towards chopping out in the midfield which is where he wants to play.

Are there not enough KPDs at the Crows where he could play that role? He’s going to be an absolute star, but Nicks and co are not making him think that. Look after him in a role that actually benefits the team and he’ll repay you by the bucket load.

And FFS use your first pick on the best mid available this year.

 

[NSolis]

5 goals? How many different opponents did he have?

This isn't some unsolvable mystery, you can just watch Brisbane's six goals in the first half and look at Curtin's role in them.

1st goal was Cameron with 17:30 left in Q1. Curtin had nothing to do with this goal.

2nd goal was Morris with 11:00 left in Q1. Lohmann kicks long to where Curtin is 1 on 1 with Morris. Curtin doesn't impact the contest and the ball goes over the back, Morris runs on to it and kicks a goal.

3rd goal was Ah Chee with 6:30 left in Q1. Curtin is 1 on 1 with Ah Chee, Cameron kicks to the contest to Ah Chee's advantage who outmarks Curtin and kicks the goal.

4th goal was Ah Chee with 3:20 left in Q1. Curtin is on Ah Chee at a stoppage, Ah Chee gets goalside of him and runs through the pack to collect a handball and runs into an open goal.

5th goal was Morris with 13:00 left in Q2. Cameron has a shot for goal and it goes wide to the pocket, Morris is standing goalside of the pack when it comes off hands and spills to him and he has an open goal. Curtin was right next to him but didn't manage to hit the pack and impact the contest or stay with Morris to stop him collecting the ball.

6th goal was Hipwood. Keane takes an intercept mark in front of Hipwood, Curtin was holding his jumper and gives up a free kick, ball is handed to Hipwood who kicks the goal.

So that's the 5. Three of them are related to Curtin letting his opponent goalside, one is Curtin being outmarked and one is Curtin giving away a free. He's involved in all of them but #2, #5 and #6 were the bigger errors. All the positioning stuff he should figure out with more experience, being outmarked by a smaller player will happen sometimes and losing a smaller more agile player at a stoppage is pretty understandable.

 

[Smart Fella]

I just don't understand how people thought you could just hide Curtin somewhere on the field and expect he wouldn't have to defend at all. They put him on the least threatening Brisbane forward, so clearly they were hoping Curtin could provide some rebound off HB and would be strong enough to defend if he had to. It was a poor game, s**t happens, not everyone is a star 2 games in! I much rather see him learn these lessons at AFL level though.

Nicks found a way to hide him. People aren't literally saying for him to play unaccountable footy on the wing for example, it's more to give him some freedom to play a bit more of his natural game which would give him confidence.

This confidence can also translate to his defensive game. Nicks had two options, back him in to help Curtin learn (which would give him confidence as the coach has his back) or push him up the ground to play a game more natural to him (which would also give confidence as he'd find the ball).

Nicks found a third option as he is not a good coach.

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[BACCS]

Nicks found a way to hide him. People aren't literally saying for him to play unaccountable footy on the wing for example, it's more to give him some freedom to play a bit more of his natural game which would give him confidence.

This confidence can also translate to his defensive game. Nicks had two options, back him in to help Curtin learn (which would give him confidence as the coach has his back) or push him up the ground to play a game more natural to him (which would also give confidence as he'd find the ball).

Nicks found a third option as he is not a good coach.

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I don't want Nicks as a coach, but people are really jumping at shadows here. This sounds like people want our coaches to tailor a gameplan around Curtin. Curtin was playing a very unaccountable role and was clearly given license to attack, he just didn't do very well at either defending or attacking; it happens, the guy is in his 2nd game and will improve.