deledio/connors

[tigerT]

I never said Newman was or better than Deledio, i'm just it would be better if Newman was kicking to Deledio from our defensive 50 into the centre then Lids kicking into our 50, as Lids is probably our best mark besides JR8, and he has the skill to kick the ball both feet into our 50 to the advantage of our players.
Plus i'm pretty sure Deledio is one of the fastest players in the comp(he made Judd look like a turtle a couple years ago) so i'd rather see that speed breaking through packs and helping out our young and very talented midfield. It would also free up Cotch more letting him dominate games, and Martins body strength will just obliterate any wanna be tagger.
Cotch, Martin and Lids is the ideal centre for me.

The difference is, without Lids down there, Newman and the rest of them cant get it out with any fluency anyhow rendering the midfeld useless. Lids is our number 1 with rebound 50's and pretty sure hes no. 1 in inside 50's (or close to) even though he's playing HB. Since he moved there 6-7 weeks ago its no coincidence that Newman has improved as there is less pessure on him, not to mention our midfield stats have gone through the roof, this is not just coincidence.. and we still ge to seehi speed and numerous forward thrusts coming from him. Hes much more important off HB than he would be off a wing. Let the young guys like webberley, collins, edwards play on the wing where the pressure is not as intense as HB. Butcher a kick in defence and its goodnight.

Just checked prostats Lids is 3rd in inside 50's and 2nd in rebound 50's AVERAGES, and clearly number 1 in both in sheer numbers so everyone should stop crying about us needing him to play on the wing

 

[Bazzar]

Top 5 rebound 50s

Lids 46
Newman 41
Moore 30
McGuane 39
Tuck 24

Top 5 inside 50s

Lids 44
Jackson 38
Martin 36
Nason 31
Jack 27

 

[Rustof]

I was wondering, when Gourdis gets elevated and Connors come back, where do you reckon they will be playing? Do you reckon Hardwick will either move one of them up forward and keep Lids in the back or move lids into the centre and make room for them, or drop one of our three talls?

 

[tigerT]

Top 5 rebound 50s

Lids 46
Newman 41
Moore 30
McGuane 39
Tuck 24

Top 5 inside 50s

Lids 44
Jackson 38
Martin 36
Nason 31
Jack 27

Thanks Bazz, now once Connors gets back wouldn't everyone love to see Lids, Newman and Connors dominating our rebound 50's? all 3 can kick beautiflly and having 3 playmakers back there makes it vey hard for opposition teams to shut down our run. We dont want players like McGuane and Tuck in our top 5 rebound 50's.

Rustof i reckon connors will replace farmer and Gourdis will replace one of our key defenders

 

[Rustof]

That's what i was thinking too, but Farmer seems to be in Hardwicks plan and hasn't really played any consistently terrible football to put him in the 2's.

 

[_RT_]

That's why Webberly, Newman and now this week Connors will be there. Good ball users. That's more than enough attacking options.

Yes all are good ball users but only Newman has shown that he is truly capable of defending. Add those 2 to Farmer and you have 3 backmen that have serious questions over whether they can play defence. Having Lids down there with Newman reduces the worries.

Yes, we're very good at clearance work and contested ball. It's what happens when we get on the outside of the pack. White, Jackson, King, Tuck delivering into the F50 or Deledio? Hmmm, touch choice. DH has stated we need more outside midfielders but we have Deledio just sitting there, our best player who has the best skills in our team. Put him in the thick of it where most of the action takes place.

How many times has Deledio been tagged since he went to the HB line? I can't think of one occassion its happened, at the same time he has been able to influence games more than he did in the second half of last year. The first thing that will happen if/when he does go back into the middle is a tagger will be his shadow week after week as opposition clubs know he can't really deal with them. On the HB line they aren't going to waste one of the premier taggers, I have seen sides try and put a dangerous HF on him to make him accountable, but once we have the ball they invariably lose Lids in traffic and he still has a major impact.

As mentioned we're winning the contested possessions and clearances without Lids in the middle so there is no urgent need for him to get back in there and while we're getting quality ball use from him at HB I don't see a good enough reason to move him away from there.

 

[Scottish Lobster]

The reason being is the backline is where your attacks start from

Are they starting games with a bounce in the goal square now? ****ing wish they'd stop changing the rules.

Deledio has proved he can play better and influence games more through the midfield (see last half of 2009) so why settle for something less?

His contested possessions, work rate, tackles and handballs may have increased in that period but we didn't win too many games despite his influence. Bringing him back to the midfield to do grunt work is more of a waste than what you think about him on the halfback line. Agree his best spot is midfield but not in the role he played under Rawlings. Leave that to Martin. Actually I'm with Richo, Lids best possie is on the wing - his inside50 and rebound50 stats off HB indicate that + he'd kick more goals.

 

[Bazzar]

I remember the other week when were struggling (think it was the Essendon match). Lids was stuck up back and it was frustrating watching then he seemed to get moved into the midfield for a quarter and the whole match turned. He set up goal after goal.

Also, Lids played on Jetta that game when he was down back, and Jetta had his best game for the year.

 

[Barnzy]

Yes all are good ball users but only Newman has shown that he is truly capable of defending. Add those 2 to Farmer and you have 3 backmen that have serious questions over whether they can play defence. Having Lids down there with Newman reduces the worries.

Then if the opposition coach keeps dragging Deledio's opponent deep he's pigeon-holed back there. Waste.

How many times has Deledio been tagged since he went to the HB line? I can't think of one occassion its happened, at the same time he has been able to influence games more than he did in the second half of last year.

He hasn't been as good as he was in the 2nd half of 09 in the midfield, not even close.

The first thing that will happen if/when he does go back into the middle is a tagger will be his shadow week after week as opposition clubs know he can't really deal with them.

Good. His best position is the midfield, he won't learn how to shake tags by hiding him away in the backline. That's what Wallace did, threw him around to try and shake tags and fans hammered him for it. Suddenly now it's an amazing move to throw him back there according to some once DH does it.

It also takes the tag off Martin and Cotchin who are getting tagged already and they shouldn't have to be in this stage of their development. Deledio should be taking it.

On the HB line they aren't going to waste one of the premier taggers, I have seen sides try and put a dangerous HF on him to make him accountable, but once we have the ball they invariably lose Lids in traffic and he still has a major impact.

Not as much impact as he has as when constantly playing midfield. He will naturally make a few plays through the midfield off HB but he also has to get back and defend and man his opponent.

See Essendon game, it was either the 2nd or 3rd quarter he got moved into the middle when we were getting flogged and suddenly he turned the match, setting up goal after goal. As Bazzar said, he got moved back to the backline and was just okay after that but the match again turned back into Essendon's favour. This is not rocket science.

As mentioned we're winning the contested possessions and clearances without Lids in the middle so there is no urgent need for him to get back in there and while we're getting quality ball use from him at HB I don't see a good enough reason to move him away from there.

We're doing well in contested possessions, clearances, etc because Tuck, Jackson, Foley, Cotchin, Martin are all very capable inside midfielders. It's what happens when we get it on the outside and normally the delivery inside the F50 is atrocious. Deledio has the best skills in our whole team, it makes sense to put him in the thick of it where most of the action takes place and where games are won and lost. Not hide him away in the backline, such a waste. Let's hope DH wisens up and plays him in the middle this week when Connors is back.

 

[coke_zero]

Rustof i reckon connors will replace farmer and Gourdis will replace one of our key defenders

We will probably play Goo a little bit this year and if he proves himself then we can trade one of the 3, We should get a decent pick for any of them.

 

[tiggywigs]

Are they starting games with a bounce in the goal square now? ****ing wish they'd stop changing the rules.



His contested possessions, work rate, tackles and handballs may have increased in that period but we didn't win too many games despite his influence. Bringing him back to the midfield to do grunt work is more of a waste than what you think about him on the halfback line. Agree his best spot is midfield but not in the role he played under Rawlings. Leave that to Martin. Actually I'm with Richo, Lids best possie is on the wing - his inside50 and rebound50 stats off HB indicate that + he'd kick more goals.

Agree entirely with this. But only if we can find someone who can penetrate the midfield zones off the half-back like Lids does with his kicking and running ability. The stats show Newman has no where near the forward 50 penetration that Lids has. Connors started to show a fair bit on the HBB before his brain implosion. He looks the best bet. (Spiderman would be a good darkhorse. He's quick and a very nice kick.)

 

[santa claws]

i think people underestimate the importance of quality classy hbf. they are essentially midfielders anyway and play a far more important role.

i know this wont get much support but i believe moore should play as a tall running defender deledio continues to play of hb and connors plays as the small defender.
i would then like to see for the rest of this yr anyway gourdis at fb post at chb and thursfield as a third negating tall.
the only player who needs to move out and play in a different spot is the skipper who i would play on a wing or thru the middle have wanted to see that happen for awhile now.
for the rest of the yr if we are to change it up a bit i would like to see dea get a game or 5 moore could go to thursfields role and thursty can miss.
it would go like this and remember newman can go back tambling can as well.

b/ connors/tambling - gourdis - thursfield/moore
hb/ moore/dea - post - deledio/newman.
c/ newman/collins - martin - cotchin.

 

[_RT_]

Then if the opposition coach keeps dragging Deledio's opponent deep he's pigeon-holed back there. Waste.

They have tried that and everytime his opponent goes deep they simply switch around to ensure he stays up across the HB line.

He hasn't been as good as he was in the 2nd half of 09 in the midfield, not even close.

Possession wise he hasn't been as good, but I think he has been more influencial since being moved to HB.

Good. His best position is the midfield, he won't learn how to shake tags by hiding him away in the backline. That's what Wallace did, threw him around to try and shake tags and fans hammered him for it. Suddenly now it's an amazing move to throw him back there according to some once DH does it.

If he could handle a tag without a problem then I'd agree with you, but given he has shown time and again that a hard tag renders him useless then, I disagree. As for TW, he would start him on HB, then throw him in the guts, then up forward, then back again. Hardwick gets plaudits, from me at least, for playing him 1 spot and allowing him to settle.

It also takes the tag off Martin and Cotchin who are getting tagged already and they shouldn't have to be in this stage of their development. Deledio should be taking it.

Cotchin and Martin have shown that tags don't have a huge effect on them. The only tagger I've seen shut out either is when Kirk did the job on Cotchin up in Sydney. If they both start to struggle with tagger then we look at something to help them out.

Not as much impact as he has as when constantly playing midfield. He will naturally make a few plays through the midfield off HB but he also has to get back and defend and man his opponent.

Again I disagree, look at how Cotchins disposal effciency has struggled at times when he has a tagger scragging him as he disposes of the ball. Lids would be affected in much the same way and as mentioned he can be effectively closed down when a tagger does pay him close attention.

See Essendon game, it was either the 2nd or 3rd quarter he got moved into the middle when we were getting flogged and suddenly he turned the match, setting up goal after goal. As Bazzar said, he got moved back to the backline and was just okay after that but the match again turned back into Essendon's favour. This is not rocket science.

So Hardwick did like TW used to and shuffled Lids around the board trying to plug holes because we were missing Jackson. This week we should get Foley & Jackson back to add to Cotchin Martin Tuck & Cousins. We have not had that midfield set up once this year and with it in place it again allows us the luxury of Lids coming off half back with pace running 15-20m and then delivering 50-55m into F50. He wouldn't be able to do that when he has a tagger hanging off him.

We're doing well in contested possessions, clearances, etc because Tuck, Jackson, Foley, Cotchin, Martin are all very capable inside midfielders. It's what happens when we get it on the outside and normally the delivery inside the F50 is atrocious. Deledio has the best skills in our whole team, it makes sense to put him in the thick of it where most of the action takes place and where games are won and lost. Not hide him away in the backline, such a waste. Let's hope DH wisens up and plays him in the middle this week when Connors is back.

We're not hiding him away, we're freeing him up, much the same way Hawthorn frees up Hodge, Carlton frees up Gibbs and the Saints free up Goddard. The beauty of lining up across HB is as I said he misses a tag and is close enough to the play that he can still be of service as an outside receiver. As you've said we've got enough ball winners in the middle that I don't see a great need to add Lids into the mix, if anything it makes more sense keeping him out of the guts and using his skills that way.

With Connors coming back, we should have 3 70m players(15-20m run, 50-55m kick) coming off the backline in Lids, Newman & Connors and that type of quick ball movement is one surefire way to beat a rolling zone.

 

[Madtiger2006]

My ideal backline would be:

B: Tambling Thursfield Newman
HB: Connors Post McGuane

With Gourdis on the bench. Time to play Lids in the middle and Tambo in defence

 

[JustTheTonic]

Personally I like Connors and Lids of HB (with Lids rotating through mid when/as required).
I can't see Farmer ever having a place in an RFC premiership team.
I'm certainly no Tambling fan, but would much rather have him playing back pocket that Farmer. Bling, to his credit, showed courage against the saints. If he continues that sort of performance as his baseline type game, he will regain my faith. Ditto Collins.

Newman I'd love to see of HFF.... he is an amazing, 50m+, composed kick for goal, chases/tackles hard, is smart, and is a decent mark.

I really don't see why Lids has to be pidgeon holed into any one position... his greatest strength is his versatility. Enjoy his work off HB for now, and if/when/as the the team develops players like Connors and perhaps Gourdis, or need dictates in the midfield, then we can enjoy his work in the midfield or even off a wing or up forward. .

 

[Barnzy]

Possession wise he hasn't been as good, but I think he has been more influencial since being moved to HB.

Don't think he's been anywhere as influential as the 2nd half of 2009 playing through the midfield but each to their own.

If he could handle a tag without a problem then I'd agree with you, but given he has shown time and again that a hard tag renders him useless

Not at the end of last year. Was hardly "useless" at all and he was getting a hard tag each and every week.

Cotchin and Martin have shown that tags don't have a huge effect on them. The only tagger I've seen shut out either is when Kirk did the job on Cotchin up in Sydney. If they both start to struggle with tagger then we look at something to help them out.

Are you kidding? Jones destroyed Cotchin on the weekend. Hardly could get a touch without being under extreme pressure.

Again I disagree, look at how Cotchins disposal effciency has struggled at times when he has a tagger scragging him as he disposes of the ball. Lids would be affected in much the same way and as mentioned he can be effectively closed down when a tagger does pay him close attention.

So which is it? Cotchin struggles with a tag or he doesn't. 2 contrasting points you make in these 2 paragraphs. Lids showed in the 2nd half of last year he was mature enough to handle a tag and was able to dominate a number of games. Even if he is slightly restricted it then frees up the much younger Cotchin and Martin who shouldn't be getting these tags in this stage of their development as I said before.

So Hardwick did like TW used to and shuffled Lids around the board trying to plug holes because we were missing Jackson. This week we should get Foley & Jackson back to add to Cotchin Martin Tuck & Cousins. We have not had that midfield set up once this year and with it in place it again allows us the luxury of Lids coming off half back with pace running 15-20m and then delivering 50-55m into F50. He wouldn't be able to do that when he has a tagger hanging off him.

Disagree. Lids should be in the middle in the thick of it where games are won and lost. Our midfield doesn't have enough quality to allow him to freewheel off HB. We don't have Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, etc as of yet.

 

[Azzleberry]

For the weekend, I think it may line up like this:
B: Newman Thursfield Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Connors
C: Edwards Cotch Tambling

Good defensive balance with poise, skill and creativity out of the backline.

 

[Bazzar]

For the weekend, I think it may line up like this:
B: Newman Thursfield Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Connors
C: Edwards Cotch Tambling

Good defensive balance with poise, skill and creativity out of the backline.

These three appear to be on rotation at the moment. Something tells me their is more to that than meets the eye. Just a gut feel, but we cant keep them and the Goo if he comes in. One has to make way. We seem a bit better without Thursty. Could be wrong, but just a hunch.

 

[_RT_]

Don't think he's been anywhere as influential as the 2nd half of 2009 playing through the midfield but each to their own.

The reason I believe he is having more influence is because he is he is kicking more. In the last 11 games of last year Lids averaged 26 disposals per game (11 kicks 15 handballs), had more handballs that kicks in 8 games. Since he moved to the HB line in round 4 he has average 27 disposals per game(15 kicks 12 handballs) only once has he had more handballs than kicks. That is why I like him coming off the HB line, he is free to use his best skill to greater effect than if he is in the action of the midfield with an opponent hanging off him.

Not at the end of last year. Was hardly "useless" at all and he was getting a hard tag each and every week.

In the last 11 games of 09 he had 5 games with less than 25 disposals, including 14 against the Swans in round 19 and 21 against the Saints in round 13. Since being moved to HB he hasn't had 1 game under 20 and has had 3 games of 29+ disposals.

Are you kidding? Jones destroyed Cotchin on the weekend. Hardly could get a touch without being under extreme pressure.

So he had a second game where he was held, in the 3 previous games despite being tagged he had averaged 25 disposals per game.

So which is it? Cotchin struggles with a tag or he doesn't. 2 contrasting points you make in these 2 paragraphs. Lids showed in the 2nd half of last year he was mature enough to handle a tag and was able to dominate a number of games. Even if he is slightly restricted it then frees up the much younger Cotchin and Martin who shouldn't be getting these tags in this stage of their development as I said before.

Just highlighting my point, Cotchin has still been able to get hands on the ball while being tagged, as mentioned above. His efficeincy has struggled and as I also showed above. Deledios disposal also suffers when in the middle, he has to give the ball off by hand more often when playing midfield because he is under pressure.

Disagree. Lids should be in the middle in the thick of it where games are won and lost. Our midfield doesn't have enough quality to allow him to freewheel off HB. We don't have Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, etc as of yet.

But we do have enough quality, we just haven't had it on the park at the same time yet. This week should see the return of Jackson & Foley to add to Martin, Cotchin Tuck & Cousins, thats more than enough quality in the guts. Foley and/or Cousins can attract a tag which could free up one of Martin or Cotchin and at the same time you've got the luxury of a freewheeling Deledio coming off HB using his most damaging weapon without having someone hanging off him. Just don't know why people are so keen on putting Lids back in the middle when the stats show he is quite as damaging by foot playing there than he is at HB.

 

[coke_zero]

For the weekend, I think it may line up like this:
B: Newman Thursfield Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Connors
C: Edwards Cotch Tambling

Good defensive balance with poise, skill and creativity out of the backline.

These three appear to be on rotation at the moment. Something tells me their is more to that than meets the eye. Just a gut feel, but we cant keep them and the Goo if he comes in. One has to make way. We seem a bit better without Thursty. Could be wrong, but just a hunch.

Agree, Goo in for McGuane to give him a rest. And like Tambling back in the midfield. We know he can tackle and find the ball. Last week the sainst presure was just to much for him. when we get some more help and more run that wont be a problem.

 

[Bazzar]

Agree, Goo in for McGuane to give him a rest.

Im thinking more along the lines it will be permanent (for next year) if the Goo comes up with the goods.