Discussion Depth 2010

[Axcellence]

I know everyone's been harping about losing ball, maguire, hudgton, but I think we need to look at this from a total depth perspective:-


Assuming that St Kilda has the same 1st team (with Ball replaced with Armitage), we get the following depth options. I've repeated names, as players can potentially play multiple positions.

FB: None
CHB: None
HB Flankers: Geary, Gwilt, Miles, Peake, J Smith (if fit), L Fisher
Midfield: A Smith, Geary, Peake, Steven
Small/Mid Forwards: Steven, Peake, Heyne
FF: McEvoy, Stanley
Rucks: McEvoy, Pattison, Stanley

It's just so very clear that St Kilda needs 1 key back as backup. Maguire would have been handy after all, even as a mere backup.

If Dawson goes down to injury / suspension or Sam Fisher can't play a game, St Kilda will have major problems. I guess, 2010, St Kilda is back to the drawing board seeking a top 4 spot. We can't deny the fact that Hudghton did some brilliant jobs in the games he played in 2009 and took pressure off Dawson. Now, it's Dawson / Fisher or nothing (or play Wil Johnson ), so I am really concerned.

On the positive side, really glad to see such good ruck depth.

 

[Squizz]

Funny, I was just thinking yesterday that we might be able to get away with having an ordinary draft period (only for one year though) because of our depth.

Most teams play two tall forwards, and we have four tall defenders in Fisher, Blake, Gilbert and Zac. Whilst this is good in that it frees up Fish and Gilbo for more offensive roles, at a pinch they can become a lock-down defender (with Gram & Goddard being the rebounding defenders).

With Miles being promoted onto the main list, Will Johnson being picked up this year, and Gaertner & Simpkin being very promising rookies, I'd say that the defence is being looked after.

The interesting stat is that out of Fisher, Blake, Gilbert and Zac - Blakey was the highest draft pick at 24.

 

[sauce_head]

Yes indeed. We have blake and gilbert to back up either of those position.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Whats so wrong with playing Will Johnson?
He has Seniors ( VFL ) experience, and given that he was playing alongside Maguire, I can only assume that the selectors saw more in him than they did in Maguire.

Sam Fisher has experience subbing for full back ( Max was not the most reliable, injury wise a few seasons back ). I reckon Gilbert would do the job OK as well. I dont think Maguire would be any good at it at all.

As quite a few bigfooty poster's have pointed out Kosi could actually be better in the back line than where he is (Stanley, McEvoy, or Lynch to take his spot ).
Dempster is taller and quicker than Goose, if not a traditional CHB ( do we need a traditional CHB ), so is Jesse Smith if we can get him fit. BJ can take a role in the backline.
Even James Gwilt is only 2cm shorter than Maguire, and can now muscle his way around OK.

I like Goose, he seems a really nice genuine bloke, and has lots of charisma, but I think the legend has surpassed the actual player and I think its time to move on.

 

[Ricmel]

I don't think depth is going to be our problem in 2010. No our problem is going to be the same one we had in 09 and 08 and 07 and 06........pace.

Even though he never played a game for us, Lovett is a big loss.

You can plug holes in defence, you can play people out of position, what you can't do is make them faster.

Looking at Pies and Dogs and Adelaide and WCE....we are going to have a hard time keeping up.

 

[Axcellence]

I am not talking about just any two tall forwards. I am talking about the likes of Brown & Fevola, Bradshaw, Hall, etc. i.e. the strong forward line types not Richmond.

Against those, I think we'd be in a bit of strife if our #1 choices went down.

Sam Fisher's been a FB in the past, but while he provides drive, he cannot stop the likes of Brown/Fevola/Hall from kicking 5-10 goals against St Kilda. Refer his earlier efforts when Max was not in and Dawson not there.

While others can go back and do Fisher's role - it'll be robbing peter to pay paul.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

I am not talking about just any two tall forwards. I am talking about the likes of Brown & Fevola, Bradshaw, Hall, etc. i.e. the strong forward line types not Richmond.

Against those, I think we'd be in a bit of strife if our #1 choices went down.

Sam Fisher's been a FB in the past, but while he provides drive, he cannot stop the likes of Brown/Fevola/Hall from kicking 5-10 goals against St Kilda. Refer his earlier efforts when Max was not in and Dawson not there.

While others can go back and do Fisher's role - it'll be robbing peter to pay paul.

You're right.

If 1 of our key backs misses a game, we may find that a gun forward will kick a bag. We just need Fish and Cougar to play against: Brisbane, Hawthorn and the Bullies.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I am not talking about just any two tall forwards. I am talking about the likes of Brown & Fevola, Bradshaw, Hall, etc. i.e. the strong forward line types not Richmond.

Against those, I think we'd be in a bit of strife if our #1 choices went down.

Sam Fisher's been a FB in the past, but while he provides drive, he cannot stop the likes of Brown/Fevola/Hall from kicking 5-10 goals against St Kilda. Refer his earlier efforts when Max was not in and Dawson not there.

While others can go back and do Fisher's role - it'll be robbing peter to pay paul.

Looking at 2007 when Max missed a heap of games.
Round 1 - Neitz kicked 3.
ROund 4 - Lloyd kicked 3. ( Chips did his Hammy ).
Round 7 - Hall Kicked 3.
Round 8 - Franklin kicked 1, Roughead kicked 3.

I'm not seeing any major issues with key forwards here.

Fisher goes to full back. Goddard goes to Fishers spot. Stanley/Heyne etc gets a run in the forward line.

Of coarse the team will be weaker.
But that is also true if a number of our more important players are injured.

IMO Nick Riewoldt is the biggest depth concern. For some reason we don't have a spare Nick Riewoldt.

 

[Squizz]

I think we are hugely under-rating Gilbo's ability to play tall too (noting he is 194cm and no pushover physically).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think we are hugely under-rating Gilbo's ability to play tall too (noting he is 194cm and no pushover physically).

Agreed, he has developed a lot in the last couple of years. And while his run and carry has come along very very nicely, his defensive work was always pretty good.

I'm not sure why people think that Goose ( at 190 cm ) was a reasonable choice for backup full back. I would have Fisher, Gilbert, and Blake all in front of him, based on both their height and their ability.

 

[goodie23]

Our depth down back doesn't worry me, we've already got a very tall backline and it's just a matter of re-shuffling.

Down forward it's a different story. After Roo and Kosi our back-ups are ruckmen, McEvoy and Stanley, and untested, Lynch and Cahill.

 

[Plugger35]

IMO Nick Riewoldt is the biggest depth concern. For some reason we don't have a spare Nick Riewoldt.

Yeah Riewoldt would definitely be the hardest player to cover if he went down with an injury. Stanley looks like he could play a similar role but he isn't at Riewoldt's level yet and whilst other players like Goddard or Fisher might be able to pinch hit at CHF they wouldn't be anywhere near as effective and would rob us of their talents elsewhere.

I think our depth is good enough to cover most other positions but obviously if you lose top quality players like Hayes, Goddard, Fisher etc you would still suffer a drop in performance.

 

[ChrisL#12]

Did anyone see Gwilt give Goodes an absolute bath last week? He did as good a job as you're likely to see on a key forward.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

I am not talking about just any two tall forwards. I am talking about the likes of Brown & Fevola, Bradshaw, Hall, etc. i.e. the strong forward line types not Richmond.

Against those, I think we'd be in a bit of strife if our #1 choices went down.

Sam Fisher's been a FB in the past, but while he provides drive, he cannot stop the likes of Brown/Fevola/Hall from kicking 5-10 goals against St Kilda. Refer his earlier efforts when Max was not in and Dawson not there.

While others can go back and do Fisher's role - it'll be robbing peter to pay paul.

This is the same for every side though. If Geelong loses Scarlett, or the Dogs lost Lake they'd struggle to replace him with anything much better than Will Johnson in experience. It's not always about the number of injuries you get, but where you get them. Max was always going to retire anyway and ready-made fullbacks hardly exist.

 

[sammm]

I don't think depth is going to be our problem in 2010. No our problem is going to be the same one we had in 09 and 08 and 07 and 06........pace.

Even though he never played a game for us, Lovett is a big loss.

You can plug holes in defence, you can play people out of position, what you can't do is make them faster.

Looking at Pies and Dogs and Adelaide and WCE....we are going to have a hard time keeping up.

i believe you are right,

i have been harping on for ages, about why the saints do not pick up / draft fast aboriginal players either as rookie lists or late drafts and see what happens. look at ugh carlton rookies, cruz, garland sic, or melbourne 's aborinal rookies, why have not the saints done this?

 

[sammm]

Did anyone see Gwilt give Goodes an absolute bath last week? He did as good a job as you're likely to see on a key forward.

one game does not =make a player. remember when he played a fantastic game in the final against adelaide 4 year or more years ago.? everyone remembers that game from him, and not much else. why?

because he hasn't played such a good game since

 

[Squizz]

i have been harping on for ages, about why the saints do not pick up / draft fast aboriginal players either as rookie lists or late drafts and see what happens. look at ugh carlton rookies, cruz, garland sic, or melbourne 's aborinal rookies, why have not the saints done this?

Has to be on merit.

Ross Tunga only played 1 game in the VFL seniors.

Clinton Jones, Rob Eddy, Jarryn Geary, Luke Miles, Andrew McQualter, and Zac Dawson have all been rookie promotions over the past 3 seasons. Not bad.

I'm pretty happy with Steven Gaertner and Tom Simpkin as rookies.

Most people are excited by Tommy Walsh.

Will Johnson looked OK in the intra-club. Maybe we'll get a better look tomorrow.

As insurance (say if King & Gardiner retire at the end of the year), I thought Pattison at pick 64 (noting the Hawks were also looking for a back-up) was pretty smart.

Smith at pick 62 seems allright to me.

 

[Ricmel]

Most people are excited by Tommy Walsh.

Is he realistically any chance to play this year? Seems they are not going to play him in the NAB Cup. I wonder if he has come on as fast as some were expecting.

 

[Squizz]

Think of him as a draft pick. If an U/18 player was picked outside the top 30, no-one would worry if he didn't play this year (as long as he was showing signs in the VFL). Walsh has had even less footy experience than an U/18 player.

Have to remember how hard Armo - who had previously been exposed to senior footy in Qld - has had to work to get a regular spot in the 22 (and technically this hasn't even happened yet).

Whilst the club is excited by his athleticism (and maybe gave supporters some false promise for 2010), I doubt they expected (at any stage) Walsh to push into the team this year. But after a year of learning in the VFL (noting he would probably start in the reserves), you'd think he'll be a completely different proposition this time next year.

 

[Axcellence]

A lot of deja vu type discussion to be had. It's interesting to read what people said as far back as the start of the season.

I like Goose, he seems a really nice genuine bloke, and has lots of charisma, but I think the legend has surpassed the actual player and I think its time to move on.

I think Maguire still has a way to go.. but he did well in junk time against Port.

IMO Nick Riewoldt is the biggest depth concern. For some reason we don't have a spare Nick Riewoldt.

I qualify that as a hex

I think we are hugely under-rating Gilbo's ability to play tall too (noting he is 194cm and no pushover physically).

Yep... we all keep underrating him and he keeps on over delivering.

Our depth down back doesn't worry me, we've already got a very tall backline and it's just a matter of re-shuffling.

Down forward it's a different story. After Roo and Kosi our back-ups are ruckmen, McEvoy and Stanley, and untested, Lynch and Cahill.

Well, we are going to find out now about the forward line depth!

i believe you are right,

i have been harping on for ages, about why the saints do not pick up / draft fast aboriginal players either as rookie lists or late drafts and see what happens. look at ugh carlton rookies, cruz, garland sic, or melbourne 's aborinal rookies, why have not the saints done this?

In light of Karl Petersen at Hawthorn, it is worth thinking, after the clarke brothers - St Kilda's been a bit shy?

 

[borderbarry]

As far as a replacement Fullback goes, Gaertner may be our best option. It will be interesting to see which Rookie, if any, get promoted now Roo is on the Long Time Injury List.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

In light of Karl Petersen at Hawthorn, it is worth thinking, after the clarke brothers - St Kilda's been a bit shy?

The thing is, while there is some undoubtable talent there, the indigineous Australians are a minority and there is a limited supply. They have also been a focus of late with all clubs doing what is suggested "drafting a fast aboriginal player".
In my opinion the "trend" means that this type of player is a bit overrated, and tending to go earlier in the draft than merit would suggest.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that none of the more recent draftee's have matched the "speedy midfielder" criteria as much as the man who ignited a lot of the interest in the first place, but we traded for him and it didn't work out.

I'd much rather draft the best possible without targeting a particular demographic. IMO players like Tambling, Oakleigh Nichols, and Dempsey went way to early in the draft.

Young Nick W will just need to do what is needed to get out there and fly the flag.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

As far as a replacement Fullback goes, Gaertner may be our best option. It will be interesting to see which Rookie, if any, get promoted now Roo is on the Long Time Injury List.

Has he officially been placed on the long term injury list (which would mean that he'd have to stay on it for a minimum of eight weeks) ?

Unless there is a real need to promote a rookie, wouldn't it make sense to keep all options open (both for a possible early Riewoldt return - as unlikely as this may be - and the choice of rookie to be promoted) ?

I don't think we have a shortage of defenders (Gaertner, Simpkin), midfielders (Fisher, Hutchings) or ruckmen (McGrath) at the moment and I'm not sure Walsh or Archer (albeit being another tall blond Tasmanian) are ready yet (and Stanley should be ahead of them).

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Has he officially been placed on the long term injury list (which would mean that he'd have to stay on it for a minimum of eight weeks) ?

Unless there is a real need to promote a rookie, wouldn't it make sense to keep all options open (both for a possible early Riewoldt return - as unlikely as this may be - and the choice of rookie to be promoted) ?

I don't think we have a shortage of defenders (Gaertner, Simpkin), midfielders (Fisher, Hutchings) or ruckmen (McGrath) at the moment and I'm not sure Walsh or Archer (albeit being another tall blond Tasmanian) are ready yet (and Stanley should be ahead of them).

Don't we already have a slot open which was briefly occupied by Lovett, Andrew?

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

I'm not sure whether we can put Lovett on the LTI. I do recall them not allowing one team to put a player who had cancer on their LTI. They're pretty strict about it, and I can see them not allowing us to put Lovett on, despite the fact he's been delisted...

Although there may be a different rule which allows us to promote a rookie if we fire one of our players during the season? Hopefully