Dissention Story - KILL IT NOW?

[PieNSauce]

Is it dead?

A frayed knot!

Well not from where I'm sitting anyway. Much as I hate to throw fuel on the fire, I believe there is much work to do to make this thing go away.

That Ed, Bucks and Maxwell have scoffed at the rumour is well and good and certainly indicates solidarity at the top end. Indeed one or two other players have also attempted to douse the flames. This pleases me enormously but frankly does little to allay fears in regard to the wider playing group regardless of our blind faith.

Whether one believes Carey's words or not, it's hard to imagine that a story like this gains traction without there being at least a hint of truth to it. Of course the media by nature will always attempt to make it into something of orwellian proportions no matter how insignificant it is while the truth may be somewhat less concerning. For all we know it may well be no more than a few players making the sort of off-the-cuff statements that could be attributed to anyone when the going gets tough. I'd like to think that's all it is but there is no doubt that the stigma of such a story will linger until it is completely and convincingly scotched by those seen to be the most likely source.

It's no secret that a significant number of fans are very concerned with the apparent lackadaisical attitude of a few players thus far and especially last week against the mortal enemy. The connection has been made, rightly or wrongly by some that these are the players at the centre of the sh1tstorm. I am not necessarily pursuaded by this logic but neither can it be discounted and it therefore is an issue for the club. So what does the club need to do to put this story to bed and allay the fears of its members and supporters?

A possible option is to ensure over the coming weeks that a significant number of those attracting this attention can look down the barrel of a TV camera with hand on heart and pledge their complete support to the coach and club. Of course this could not be done in a contrived way because it would do more to fan the flames than douse them if the perception was one of insincerity but opportunities will arise for this to occur naturally in conversation and one would think that the question will be at the forefront of every media commentator's mind.

One thing that absolutely must happen from here is for the players to play out of their skins in the coming weeks. There's no doubt in my mind that another performance such as what was put up last weekend will blow this story up so big it will be near unstoppable. As fans we are not expecting a side decimated by injury to necessarily smack every side in the competition but if the impression after games is again one where players are accused of a lack of heart then expect the sh1t to fly from every direction both inside and outside the club.

The time for the players to step up and kill this story is right now!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Its probably true, but the rider is that it is probably true of every club.

Carey makes the point, which wasn't reported as widely as the sensationalist headline, that when he was playing at North, there were a group of players that hated Pagan. He goes further and says, those feelings didn't stop North from winning a flag.

In every workplace there will be some people who do not like their boss, it really isn't a big deal.

Remember this: Collingwood sells newspapers.
If what Carey says is correct about Pagan, why wasn't that the headline?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Nah, I think if there is genuine dissent somewhere in the team, it's best for those players to figure out for themselves that they're behaving like a bunch of bitchy schoolgirls. Forcing the players to make a pledge of allegiance fixes the problem in the media, but it wouldn't address any underlying attitude problems.

If a player is sitting on the sidelines with an injury they think they've got from overtraining, then they've got fair cause to be peeved off. But you'd hope that they'd dissent to Buckley / Butters / Walsh / medical staff / Maxwell / leadership group / development coaching group / player support group / AFLPA (Luke Ball president) before they go bitching to Wayne Carey.

The club should provide the correct systems for dealing with any aggrievements from the players. If they don't, well there's a cultural problem right there that should be fixed.

 

[wmvaux]

Did Buckley take over from Carey as forward coach???

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Did Buckley take over from Carey as forward coach???

No, there were several others between their appointments

 

[sloth6]

The proof will be in the pudding this Saturday against Port.

If they display the same type committment as they did against the Blues, Port will win.

I'd be very disappointed if we are 'soft' this weekend.

 

[the distributer]

Of course there's truth to it, it's just a certain few player whining they have to do more than they're used to, happens when every new coach takes over and ups the workrate (especially a new coach taking over from a long termer, Mick was all most of thse blokes knew, Knights had similar issues), normally it isn't newsworthy, but because it's Collingwood/bad start to the year/Bucks/Mick/Edd it becomes newsworthy.

 

[Swooop]

MM was there for all the current players' playing lives.

Course he would have had close bonds with the great majority of them.

Course some would have been sad that he went.

Course some of them prefer MM's coaching style to Bucks' ( would we expect a 44-0 preference Bucks' way?)

You'd be surprised if none of that group didn't verbalise their thoughts.

It's open to interpretation whether talk like that constitutes a rift, but on the balance of probabilities, it's just idle observations by a few players here and there, and surprise, surprise, blown up into a story by media personnel, particularly if they weren't particularly sympathetic to Collingwood ( the vast majority)

Certainly dull performances like v Carlton will serve to fuel the rumours, but they played exceptionally well, we were struggling with losing two players before HT which always kills teams in the second half.

Particualrly if you're left with an outfit already weakened by VFL std replacements and several players first game back in a 20 v 22 contest.

There's just no surprise that the story sufaced, but unlikely to be true to any significant degree.

Neeld will be next ( if he hasn't had his turn already..)

 

[PieNSauce]

Its probably true, but the rider is that it is probably true of every club.

Carey makes the point, which wasn't reported as widely as the sensationalist headline, that when he was playing at North, there were a group of players that hated Pagan. He goes further and says, those feelings didn't stop North from winning a flag.

In every workplace there will be some people who do not like their boss, it really isn't a big deal.

Remember this: Collingwood sells newspapers.
If what Carey says is correct about Pagan, why wasn't that the headline?

I totally agree with you and in fairness, what I was trying to project was that the real solution is in our performance on the field. Platitudes expressed to the media rarely have the effect of fully allaying peoples concerns but do have their place in pricking the concience of the dissenters because of the fact that they go to the perceived integrity of the player.

As you have rightly pointed out, as far back as my suburban playing days I have seen that there is always some dissention in every club. Whether it stems from players who disagree with the ideology of the coaches, overwork, selection etc. It's nothing new but to have it aired against the background of a new coaching panel and in the shadows of a fairly insipid performance is always going to raise eyebrows.

 

[mattys123]

The rumours I have been hearing are that Bucks has put the hard word on several players, and some have reacted well, and some haven't.

Whether you consider that dissention, or something that occurs at every sporting organisation on earth, then that's up to you I guess.

Talking about guessing, it's not hard to guess at least a few of the names that Bucks would have asked for more out of it, and also from the rumours is that only one of these players is what you call "elite" or being of considerable value.

When w***er Carey said 6-7 players, he probably wasn't far off, but then he backed down the other day by saying at North that half the list hated Pagan at one point, but that they still were successful, showing like the rest of the media, he was just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I think this dissension rumour has come more out of Buckley's hard edge approach compared to Mick's "I love my boys" mantra, which may take some time for some players to get use to.

But if anyone is "sooking" because Buckley has asked for more out of them, then quite simply, if they aren't happy, PISS OFF.

They are getting paid massive amounts of money to play a sport they love, if they can't hack a little personal criticism then they aren't worth persisting with long term IMO.

 

[PieNSauce]

The rumours I have been hearing are that Bucks has put the hard word on several players, and some have reacted well, and some haven't.

Whether you consider that dissention, or something that occurs at every sporting organisation on earth, then that's up to you I guess.

Talking about guessing, it's not hard to guess at least a few of the names that Bucks would have asked for more out of it, and also from the rumours is that only one of these players is what you call "elite" or being of considerable value.

When w***er Carey said 6-7 players, he probably wasn't far off, but then he backed down the other day by saying at North that half the list hated Pagan at one point, but that they still were successful, showing like the rest of the media, he was just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I think this dissension rumour has come more out of Buckley's hard edge approach compared to Mick's "I love my boys" mantra, which may take some time for some players to get use to.

But if anyone is "sooking" because Buckley has asked for more out of them, then quite simply, if they aren't happy, PISS OFF.

They are getting paid massive amounts of money to play a sport they love, if they can't hack a little personal criticism then they aren't worth persisting with long term IMO.

The point you make is a valid one if expressed a little flippantly. I would think that there is a bedding in period for this type of stuff with anybody before they ultimately decide whether they are in or they are out in an ideological sense.

Obviously if they ultimately decide that they are out then the course of action is obvious but I do believe you have to give them a bit of time and a fair bit of counselling. In my view, most of them are little more than kids who will take a while to recognise the potential benefits of being "in".

 

[mattys123]

The point you make is a valid one if expressed a little flippantly. I would think that there is a bedding in period for this type of stuff with anybody before they ultimately decide whether they are in or they are out in an ideological sense.

Obviously if they ultimately decide that they are out then the course of action is obvious but I do believe you have to give them a bit of time and a fair bit of counselling. In my view, most of them are little more than kids who will take a while to recognise the potential benefits of being "in".

Of course it was flippant, but in the long term it will be the truth, especially for any fringe players who don't "buy in" to Bucks philosophy and coaching style.

Plus, we can't make any real moves until the end of the season, and even then contracts may prevent that player(s) from moving on anyway.

But the other point I was making was is a few disgruntled players any different from any other sporting code on the planet where a new coach comes in?

That's where I don't get the validity of the story, I'm sure in Adelaide there's some that don't like Sanderson, at Melbourne there's some that don't like Neeld, etc etc.

For Wayne Carey and the media as a whole to centre on Bucks when it's almost certainly a common theme seems petty and pathetic to me.

 

[PieNSauce]

Of course it was flippant, but in the long term it will be the truth, especially for any fringe players who don't "buy in" to Bucks philosophy and coaching style.

Plus, we can't make any real moves until the end of the season, and even then contracts may prevent that player(s) from moving on anyway.

But the other point I was making was is a few disgruntled players any different from any other sporting code on the planet where a new coach comes in?

That's where I don't get the validity of the story, I'm sure in Adelaide there's some that don't like Sanderson, at Melbourne there's some that don't like Neeld, etc etc.

For Wayne Carey and the media as a whole to centre on Bucks when it's almost certainly a common theme seems petty and pathetic to me.

No disagreement there!

 

[Bay Pie]

It's quite easy to see how things can escalate along the 'chinese whispers' type scenario.

Let's say Swanny says to a mate " We are getting trained much harder this pre-season then previously. It's really tough."

Mate says to another mate "Swanny hates pre-season training this year"

That mate says to another mate " Swanny hates the way Bucks is training the Pies this pre-season"

That mate says to another mate "Swanny says he hates Bucks methods".

Bingo... we have our current rumour, that some may consture as true, but worded out of context.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

MM was there for all the current players' playing lives.

Course he would have had close bonds with the great majority of them.

Course some would have been sad that he went.

Course some of them prefer MM's coaching style to Bucks' ( would we expect a 44-0 preference Bucks' way?)

You'd be surprised if none of that group didn't verbalise their thoughts.

It's open to interpretation whether talk like that constitutes a rift, but on the balance of probabilities, it's just idle observations by a few players here and there, and surprise, surprise, blown up into a story by media personnel, particularly if they weren't particularly sympathetic to Collingwood ( the vast majority)

Certainly dull performances like v Carlton will serve to fuel the rumours, but they played exceptionally well, we were struggling with losing two players before HT which always kills teams in the second half.

Particualrly if you're left with an outfit already weakened by VFL std replacements and several players first game back in a 20 v 22 contest.

There's just no surprise that the story sufaced, but unlikely to be true to any significant degree.

Neeld will be next ( if he hasn't had his turn already..)

Very well said and put it far better than me

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The rumours I have been hearing are that Bucks has put the hard word on several players, and some have reacted well, and some haven't.

Whether you consider that dissention, or something that occurs at every sporting organisation on earth, then that's up to you I guess.

Talking about guessing, it's not hard to guess at least a few of the names that Bucks would have asked for more out of it, and also from the rumours is that only one of these players is what you call "elite" or being of considerable value.

When w***er Carey said 6-7 players, he probably wasn't far off, but then he backed down the other day by saying at North that half the list hated Pagan at one point, but that they still were successful, showing like the rest of the media, he was just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Its probably worth putting the names out there matty because its important to understand that two of the big names I have heard both recently signed new contracts knowing full well that Bucks was taking over and knowing full well his coaching philosophies.

And if what I have heard is true their "dissension" (not even sure if that is the correct word) is that they have been asked to do more when they believed they were doing pretty good.
In the scheme of things, if that is all that it is, its not really a huge problem and I think that type of conversation would be being had in most places everyday of the week

 

[dubber]

Some facts to supplement the discussion

- Buckley is more hands on than Mick
- Buckley asked Butters to raise the workload of the players pre season
- Buckley believes in players motivating themselves as opposed to Mick's approach.

as people have said already its natural for some players to get a bit upset about extra work load etc.

I take heart in the fact that Thomas, Pendles & Heath signed extended contracts knowing all this.

I also believe that with the new regime we have to expect that some players will either leave or get de listed at seasons end.

 

[Checkside35]

Some facts to supplement the discussion

- Buckley is more hands on than Mick
- Buckley asked Butters to raise the workload of the players pre season
- Buckley believes in players motivating themselves as opposed to Mick's approach.

as people have said already its natural for some players to get a bit upset about extra work load etc.

I take heart in the fact that Thomas, Pendles & Heath signed extended contracts knowing all this.

I also believe that with the new regime we have to expect that some players will either leave or get de listed at seasons end.

On point 2, we should elaborate and include that Butters wouldn't comply if the load was unreasonable and dangerous.

 

[dubber]

On point 2, we should elaborate and include that Butters wouldn't comply if the load was unreasonable and dangerous.

Absolutely, we are a professional club and I expect the players welfare is butters top priority.
People who think this overload was unnessary just have to look at our 4th quarter fade outs last year.

Sanderson, Hird & Buckley are all believers of super fit players and it's to be expected that initially there will be some bumps but in the long run its going to set us up beautifully.

 

[rose jam]

Truth be told, I think we're still suffering a premiership hangover. we did last year, it jut wasn't reported because we were smacking sides in 30 minutes at the end of games because we had created an aura, but when things got tough at the end that bit of motivation to drive through the end of the year wasn't there and it's just run through into this season.
We're not hungry and we probably need a a really s*** year to get the appetite back. It's a sad fact of human nature.

 

[sr36]

But if anyone is "sooking" because Buckley has asked for more out of them, then quite simply, if they aren't happy, PISS OFF.

.

I get this attitude but ... it's bad management. The thing I'm worried about is that a good manager accepts different personality types and the strengths and weaknesses of indivuduals and is capable of getting the best out of a wide range of people. Bucks seem a bit blinkered and rigid in his beliefs to me and I suspect that he will struggle to understand and motivate a wide range of personality types. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[rose jam]

I get this attitude but ... it's bad management. The thing I'm worried about is that a good manager accepts different personality types and the strengths and weaknesses of indivuduals and is capable of getting the best out of a wide range of people. Bucks seem a bit blinkered and rigid in his beliefs to me and I suspect that he will struggle to understand and motivate a wide range of personality types. I hope I'm wrong.

Insert Mick Malthouse.


Mick's advice; "In your first year take control of everything and then learn to release parts of it to others, but never completely hand over control". This is what he said in a radio interview when asked about how his assistants who just got jobs should approach their first year.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Insert Mick Malthouse.


Mick's advice; "In your first year take control of everything and then learn to release parts of it to others, but never completely hand over control". This is what he said in a radio interview when asked about how his assistants who just got jobs should approach their first year.

Quality quote

 

[No SPIN]

Injuries aside - this slow start is often found in teams unexpectedly losing the GF.
Motivation to climb the mountain again is often lacking early in the season, and usually requires a thrashing to snap players back into reality.

Lets hope CARL did just that.