Do Australian Cities Need Rapid Transit?

[Jordie_tackles]

No doubt we need this, linking places like Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong for starters would be Ace imo, literally a fats rail would get you to the CBD in about 35 minutes or less...... not to mention outer suburbs of Melbourne in no time. it is a big task though, we want to reduce urban sprawl ion general so a fats rail link would need to be positioned correctly and added to a higher density building project in close proximity to the rail connections and hubs, also activity centres, it is not a isolated task and why it would cost so much.

It will be a good tranport system but people dont live close enough to stations atm, and would drive there anyway.... i did my thesis on this topic recently and it is a huge task too look at doing.

 

[JHF1870]

Is there a chance the track could bend?

Not a chance my Hindu friend!

 

[theboxmike]

I totally agree, however....

I've been waiting for Ringwood station to be upgraded and fixed for 25+ years so what chance does a HSR or even an underground fast rail system have?

To many gutless liberal surplus supporters unfortunately. (Don't wish to turn this into politics but somebody mentioned it earlier).

 

[vealesy]

Surprised at the low number of commuting motorcyclists i see in melbourne.

There is rapid transport available, y'all just not using it.

 

[hamohawk1]

can be done, i would love it. but the cost would be insane and you would have to argue upon the long term merits of it which is always a hard proposition

 

[checkraiseulite]

Surprised at the low number of commuting motorcyclists i see in melbourne.

So am I, until I squash them with my 4x4 that I have no idea how to drive.

 

[Manila_Playa87]

No doubt we need this, linking places like Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong for starters would be Ace imo, literally a fats rail would get you to the CBD in about 35 minutes or less...... not to mention outer suburbs of Melbourne in no time. it is a big task though, we want to reduce urban sprawl ion general so a fats rail link would need to be positioned correctly and added to a higher density building project in close proximity to the rail connections and hubs, also activity centres, it is not a isolated task and why it would cost so much.

It will be a good tranport system but people dont live close enough to stations atm, and would drive there anyway.... i did my thesis on this topic recently and it is a huge task too look at doing.

Well they are building the Regional Rail Link for $5 Billion. Completely stupid however that the Geelongs go via Tarneit, Wyndham and Deer Park. It's designed though to separate regional from metro trains but will only do that up of Sunshine heading into the city. How this got $3.2 Billion of federal funding i will never know when the Melbourne metro tunnel with a pair of an extra pair track for that line could have been built for the purpose of separting the metro trains from the regional trains going to Ballarat and Bendigo. Geelong, however is another story that could have been sorted out later

 

[Manila_Playa87]

Would be interested if any developed country has implemented one of these in a city with a pop >3m in the last decade (UK, France, Germany, US, Canada etc).

Cost is just way too high. It'd also take years to organise given the need for reclamation of land, planning issues etc.

It would've been good to have one, but it should've been built decades ago when it was cost effective.

Nope. The likes of Houston and Dallas have gone for Lightrail which some may say is more appropriate for lower density cities like those. Most of the cities with extensive subway systems like NYC, Boston, Toronto built theirs decades back when it was a lot more viable and disruption was less problematic. There have been a few single metro lines such as the one from Downtown to Wilshire and a subway exstension but they have been very expensive and met a lot of opposition. I've read some reports which state that tunneling can be up to half a billion dollars per Kilometre so easy to see why subways are no longer being built

 

[Manila_Playa87]

It’d never happen in Melbourne now. Retro-fitting large, proper transit systems (underground railways or the like) into cities and urban sprawls that are already developed is very, very difficult and prohibitively expensive. Also, our suburbs are a huge sprawl and getting bigger – we build out, not up – any system would have to cover a massive amount of area.

I know it sounds stupid because they have a bad reputation at the moment, but I reckon the only real answer for Melbourne’s woes now is a proper bus system. Not the crap we have now, which is unreliable, infrequent services that run along stupid random routes. A proper system – vehicles with good capacity, running both ways along all major roads (east – west and north – south), stopping at each main road that intersects to allow people to change, at proper intervals – 10 mins, or 5 mins during peak hour. We have a pretty good road system (it’s the traffic itself that is the problem), it’s what we have to take advantage of. If you could offer people a reliable system that ran frequently along simple, logical routes and allowed them to change regularly to get to where they need to, I think it’d be taken advantage of to some extent. It’s never going to be as good as a proper grid railway system etc, but might be the best we can do and could get some cars off the road. If you can get 50-100 people on a bus, generally that’s 50-100 cars off the road in peak hour.

The other thing that needs to happen is to get rid of the scourge that is level crossings. It’s staggering we still have so many in such high traffic areas. There’s simply no leadership from state government on this – all we hear about is how expensive it is to get rid of them. Well ****, find the worst one in Melbourne and fix it. Do something! Next year, maybe do one or two more. Who knows, in 10 or 20 years we might have got somewhere. Unfortunately politics at all levels at the moment lacks visionaries who want to get shit done.

Totally agree about buses and dedicated busways. Buses are the best option for lower density outer suburbs where trains may not be viable at this point in time. Think Rowville, Doncaster, Frankston to Dandenong to Ringwood along the Eastlink etc. Many cities including Chicago and Toronto use their buses as feeder systems that connect to train lines allowing commuters to quickly transfer and be on a train in no more than 5 mins.

Ted is preparing to ask Canberra for some more funds next budget regarding level crossings on the Dandenong line. This corridor i believe is the most important. Will need to be done before the rail tunnel though i reckon as You cannot add more services with the level crossings in place.

 

[TheOz]

They could start by at least triplicating the Caulfield to Dandenong section of rail on the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines and not just talking about it. The amount of cancellations on those lines plus "express" trains that average no more than 35k/h is utterly ridiculous. Ultimately the level crossings across the entire network have to go and it'll never happen as the costs will be way too high and building more roads is the easier, cheaper, short term solution for short-sighted state governments.

 

[Manila_Playa87]

Now this would be a good link. Linking to Alamein is also worth investigating as that captures the ringwood line population also

Chadstone station and tunnel on $2b shopping list

Date
November 11, 2012

A NEW train line connecting the Glen Waverley and Dandenong railway lines would stop at Chadstone Shopping Centre as part of a bold $2 billion plan to bury part of the Glen Waverley line.
A private consortium wants government money to help build the new Chadstone station and subway tunnels, which would remove six of the eastern suburbs' most dangerous level crossings and free up valuable land for development.
The heavy-hitting consortium, which includes NAB, Thiess, Hassell, Grimshaw Architects and KPMG among others, has proposed linking Chadstone to the rail network by digging a tunnel between the Glen Waverley and Dandenong lines.
The inclusion of Chadstone distinguishes the pitch from a similar, failed proposal the consortium put to the former Labor government in 2006, which withered in the face of bureaucratic opposition.

The Baillieu government is still considering whether it will include the revised plan, called ''Project Double Fault'', on its already ambitious list of impending railway upgrades.
The consortium is seeking a $600 million to $700 million contribution from the government. It says the Chadstone connection would spark a huge increase in rail patronage and help the government recoup its costs.
Chris Eves, a consultant with consortium member Lighthouse Infrastructure, said the project would also fix several rail and road bottlenecks and create capacity to run more trains.
It would remove every level crossing on the Glen Waverley line, including two that intersect with tram lines.
''We believe that the Victorian government would achieve major economies of scale if they were to approach the removal of level crossings on a systemic basis,'' Mr Eves said.
The deadly smash between a train and a truck at Dandenong last week proved the government needed to attack the task of removing Melbourne's 170-plus level crossings with greater urgency, Mr Eves said.
The Cranbourne line remains closed eight days after the collision at the Abbotts Road level crossing, which is still being investigated.
The Baillieu government has committed to removing 12 level crossings, but only five of those projects have been funded.
''Our discussions with the [Transport] Department and other agencies indicate that they do not have the financial or human resources to devote to level-crossing removal,'' Mr Eves said. ''This must change. The Victorian government needs to develop a specific authority to devote itself to planning for the removal of level crossings.''
The project would would require building five new underground stations at Heyington, Kooyong, Tooronga, Gardiner and Glen Iris.
It would create more than 100,000 square metres of valuable new real estate along a corridor up to 50 metres wide and more than four kilometres long. The consortium would not own this land and would still have to tender for the right to develop.
Kelly O'Dwyer, the federal Liberal member for Higgins, which takes in the affected land, said it was an innovative proposal that ''deserves very serious consideration''.
''If we want to increase productivity we must look at unlocking investment for grade separations of road and rail,'' she said.
A spokesman for Public Transport Victoria confirmed the authority had met consortium representatives, and said the proposal was being assessed against several other transport development plans, including the proposed Melbourne Metro rail tunnel from South Kensington to South Yarra.
A spokeswoman for Public Transport Minister Terry Mulder would not say whether the proposal was being considered but said the state needed private investment in transport.
''The investment required to address Victoria's infrastructure backlog is now at a scale not experienced for decades,'' she said.
''Commonwealth and private sector partnerships will be essential to address Victoria's infrastructure backlog and achieve maximum economic and liveability benefits.''
Tony Morton, president of the Public Transport Users Association, warned that the Chadstone connection could further tangle the network, which needed to be more streamlined to operate efficiently, and could potentially confuse passengers on the Glen Waverley and Dandenong lines.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/chadstone-station-and-tunnel-on-2b-shopping-list-20121110-29556.html#ixzz2BzhZT5tL

 

[JHF1870]

 

[hamohawk1]

Now this would be a good link. Linking to Alamein is also worth investigating as that captures the ringwood line population also

Chadstone station and tunnel on $2b shopping list

Date
November 11, 2012

A NEW train line connecting the Glen Waverley and Dandenong railway lines would stop at Chadstone Shopping Centre as part of a bold $2 billion plan to bury part of the Glen Waverley line.
A private consortium wants government money to help build the new Chadstone station and subway tunnels, which would remove six of the eastern suburbs' most dangerous level crossings and free up valuable land for development.
The heavy-hitting consortium, which includes NAB, Thiess, Hassell, Grimshaw Architects and KPMG among others, has proposed linking Chadstone to the rail network by digging a tunnel between the Glen Waverley and Dandenong lines.
The inclusion of Chadstone distinguishes the pitch from a similar, failed proposal the consortium put to the former Labor government in 2006, which withered in the face of bureaucratic opposition.

The Baillieu government is still considering whether it will include the revised plan, called ''Project Double Fault'', on its already ambitious list of impending railway upgrades.
The consortium is seeking a $600 million to $700 million contribution from the government. It says the Chadstone connection would spark a huge increase in rail patronage and help the government recoup its costs.
Chris Eves, a consultant with consortium member Lighthouse Infrastructure, said the project would also fix several rail and road bottlenecks and create capacity to run more trains.
It would remove every level crossing on the Glen Waverley line, including two that intersect with tram lines.
''We believe that the Victorian government would achieve major economies of scale if they were to approach the removal of level crossings on a systemic basis,'' Mr Eves said.
The deadly smash between a train and a truck at Dandenong last week proved the government needed to attack the task of removing Melbourne's 170-plus level crossings with greater urgency, Mr Eves said.
The Cranbourne line remains closed eight days after the collision at the Abbotts Road level crossing, which is still being investigated.
The Baillieu government has committed to removing 12 level crossings, but only five of those projects have been funded.
''Our discussions with the [Transport] Department and other agencies indicate that they do not have the financial or human resources to devote to level-crossing removal,'' Mr Eves said. ''This must change. The Victorian government needs to develop a specific authority to devote itself to planning for the removal of level crossings.''
The project would would require building five new underground stations at Heyington, Kooyong, Tooronga, Gardiner and Glen Iris.
It would create more than 100,000 square metres of valuable new real estate along a corridor up to 50 metres wide and more than four kilometres long. The consortium would not own this land and would still have to tender for the right to develop.
Kelly O'Dwyer, the federal Liberal member for Higgins, which takes in the affected land, said it was an innovative proposal that ''deserves very serious consideration''.
''If we want to increase productivity we must look at unlocking investment for grade separations of road and rail,'' she said.
A spokesman for Public Transport Victoria confirmed the authority had met consortium representatives, and said the proposal was being assessed against several other transport development plans, including the proposed Melbourne Metro rail tunnel from South Kensington to South Yarra.
A spokeswoman for Public Transport Minister Terry Mulder would not say whether the proposal was being considered but said the state needed private investment in transport.
''The investment required to address Victoria's infrastructure backlog is now at a scale not experienced for decades,'' she said.
''Commonwealth and private sector partnerships will be essential to address Victoria's infrastructure backlog and achieve maximum economic and liveability benefits.''
Tony Morton, president of the Public Transport Users Association, warned that the Chadstone connection could further tangle the network, which needed to be more streamlined to operate efficiently, and could potentially confuse passengers on the Glen Waverley and Dandenong lines.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/chadstone-station-and-tunnel-on-2b-shopping-list-20121110-29556.html#ixzz2BzhZT5tL

i actually agree with this proposal but with the whole conjecture about the east west tunnel (of which i am against) i cannot see this being built in the foreseeable future

 

[Silent Alarm]

We have a real car culture in Australia, it'll be hard to get around that. Plus, people in Perth would end up whinging about it anyway...

 

[Scotland]

We have a real car culture in Australia, it'll be hard to get around that. Plus, people in Perth would end up whinging about it anyway...

And you'd end up whinging about them, despite having spent 5 minutes of your life in Perth.

 

[Duffman95]

Now this would be a good link. Linking to Alamein is also worth investigating as that captures the ringwood line population also

Chadstone station and tunnel on $2b shopping list

This idea has been done a million times before, however the reason it's been done so many times before is because it's a really good one. If they were to connect it to the Alamein line you would have great mobility between the Dandenong, GW and Ringwood lines, which in turn would massively upon up the catchments for potential passengers.

As an aside, the way that the Glen Waverley line was left at-grade while the South Eastern Arterial was separated was a disgrace. It's just created a huge mess for the trains, the local roads and the freeway itself especially around the off-ramps.

As for the actual specifics of funding and who makes money from the project (always should be skeptical when offers like this come along..), the details are never going to make it into a paper so you just don't know.

 

[Silent Alarm]

And you'd end up whinging about them, despite having spent 5 minutes of your life in Perth.

I'm pretty sure I've decried the cultural whinge of Perth, and barely ever been a part of it. Y'know, in terms of Perth Arena, Burswood Stadium, things like that. Complaining about Perth as a whole is different.

 

[IceNine]

I'm pretty sure I've decried the cultural whinge of Perth, and barely ever been a part of it. Y'know, in terms of Perth Arena, Burswood Stadium, things like that. Complaining about Perth as a whole is different.

How so? Because it's your opinion, and not that of the proles?

 

[Scotland]

I think he's missed the point that his opinion on Perth or his opinion on what others think of Perth are both equally not worth a pinch of shit.

 

[Manila_Playa87]

As an aside, the way that the Glen Waverley line was left at-grade while the South Eastern Arterial was separated was a disgrace. It's just created a huge mess for the trains, the local roads and the freeway itself especially around the off-ramps.

One word "Citylink". I guess we were Jeffed there LoL

 

[Kram]

Surprised at the low number of commuting motorcyclists i see in melbourne.

Coffins on wheels?

 

[vealesy]

Coffins on wheels?

Thats a pretty shit thing to say.

 

[BACCS]

Anything is better than the shit in Adelaide.

 

[Manila_Playa87]

This should go someway to creating the "rapid transit" that i dream of

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7LWtFT ... edit?pli=1
Level Crossings on the Governments hit list.
Andersons Road Sunshine (Ballarat line) "happening now"
Andersons Road Sunshine (Bendigo line) "happening now"
Micham Road, Micham
Rooks Road, Micham
Springvale Road, Springvale
North Road, Ormond
Blackburn Road, Blackburn
Scoresby Road, Bayswater
Burke Road, Glen Iris
Mountain Highway, Bayswater
Main Road, St.Albans
Murrumbeena Road, Murrumbeena