Drafting for Talls

[chef]

I think he might have been referring to Lachie Henderson.

Didn't you know that anyone who doesn't play for the Dogs is a spud

Henderson looked pretty good in the games I've seen him play(my two daughters are Lions supporters) and i would be happy to have him on the Dogs list.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

I agree i think we need to re-assess this topic in 2 years time, but i will say the early signs are a little bit of a worry for me, Grant should be doing better at VFL level for his high draft pick status, but lets give him some time.

Hopefully cordy can come on, if he is half as good as they say he will be we will be laughing.

I would also say it has been great to Williams playing this year it settles our back line much more, would be nice if he got a little bit more of the ball though!

Williams doesn't look 100% to me. No real dash or leap or crashing of packs this year. Hopefully the club knows what they're doing.

 

[kookadog]

it's too early to tell, I think Grant Everitt and Williams will be good players.

I think it's pretty obvious we needed to go for some talls.

Clayton was not a bad recruiter, we've got alot of talented players and we are in a position to mix it with the best teams in the comp. He's gone now and it wouldn't surprise if he does well up at the GC.

 

[INSIGHT]

Taylor Walker was never an option as he was signed by the Crows on a NSW scholarship a number of years before he was drafted.

Then I would have preferred Taylor Walker to Chris Ogle

 

[bigfella7]

I still think boumann is the one for CHF over the next few years. 2010 onwards. He has the athletisism, skill, height to play there. Playing him in the backline has bolsted his deffensive pressure. Grant to me is more a HFF, murphy style. Cordy a FF/ruck. Roughead a mobile ruckman/KPP. Jones is another one to watch as a KPP.The future looks good we just need to be patient with these kids!

 

[The Coon Dog]

I still think boumann is the one for CHF over the next few years. 2010 onwards. He has the athletisism, skill, height to play there. Playing him in the backline has bolsted his deffensive pressure. Grant to me is more a HFF, murphy style. Cordy a FF/ruck. Roughead a mobile ruckman/KPP. Jones is another one to watch as a KPP.The future looks good we just need to be patient with these kids!

Well said bigfella, particularly about being patient.

 

[2691617]

Lets wait and see if he can hold his place in Willi seniors this week

 

[bigfella7]

Lets wait and see if he can hold his place in Willi seniors this week

I think he can. I've watched nearly all the willi 2nds and senior games this year and the kid has really taken the next step. He has looked a step above the resi's and played well in the pracy matches esp against sandi when he held sautner to 2 goals. I saw him against port last week and he moved well and looked composed. I think he will be a beauty along with roughead! Once again its patience, only time will tell

 

[soupaman]

You're not serious are you? 10 years at the Bulldogs and not 1 kPF, 1 in 6 years at Brisbane, where do you get he's as good as anyone else?

1 KPF in 16 years recruiting is appalling. I'm happy to exclude father and son selections if you think it helps your case.

Every KPF in the AFL at the moment, and many that have come and gone in the last 16 years were drafted during Clayton's career. He got 1 correct, ONE!! Lloyd, Lucas, Riewoldt, Pavlich, Tredrea, Fevola, Franklin, Roughead, Mooney, Hall, Anthony, Q Lynch, Petrie to name a few were all drafted during his time.

Lets just have a look at this then (and yes, I do realise this is a ridiculously massive post).

For those saying clayton has a poor record at picking talls, here are his picks and players he missed out on (Take note that I discount rookie picks on the basis that a) I can't be stuffed, and b) everybody overlooked them atleast 3 times.

1999

13. Robert Murphy

18. Rhyce Shaw (F/S)
19. Brad Green
20. Paul Wheatley
21. Scott Stevens
24. Jason Blake
27. Cain Ackland
28. Brent Guerra
29. Adam Hunter
30. Jonathon Brown (F/S)
31. Paul Chapman

32. Daniel Giansiracusa

34. Leon Davis

35. Patrick Wiggins

36. Rhett Biglands

37. Mitch Hahn

38. Cameron Ling
40. David Hille

43. Lindsay Gilbee

47. Corey Enright
48. Chance Bateman
50. Matthew Whelan
56. Rayn O'Keefe

58. Patrick Bowden

62. Ben Johnson
64. Cameron Bruce

66. Ryan Hargrave

73. Ryan Houlihan

Thats one impressive draft. We drafted key componenets of our side in Murphy, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Gilbee and Hargrave, and had two misses with Wiggins and Bowden. The talls we missed were Stevens, Ackland, Hunter (all inferior to Murphy), Biglands, Hille and O'Keefe. Only Hille, O'Keefe and Hunter would get a game for us now, with Hunter being an ok key forward, and O'Keefe another Murphy.

2000

10. Jordan McMahon

12. Shaun Burgoyne
16. Scott Thompson
18. Daniel Kerr
20. Kane Cornes
23. Drew Petrie
25. Mark Coughlan

26. Shane Birss

29. Jamie Charman (zone selection)
34. Ryan Lonie
39. Adam McPhee
43. Mark Williams
44. Josh Hunt

56. Daniel Cross

58. Nathan Lonie
60. Corey Jones
67. Graham Johncock

70. Wayde Skipper

Not a terrible effort, but nothing great. McMahon has been a servicable AFL player, albeit a frustrating one. Cross has emerged as one of the better inside mids in the comp, Birss could play and was unlucky to be let go of by St.Kilda and Skipper has shown glimpses, but never really kicked on. Barely any talls in this draft were missed by Clayton, with the only talls taken after our first pick being Petrie and Charman, with Skipper being the only other tall still on an AFL list taken after pick 7. Petrie would be a very good key forward for us, but thats it from that draft.

2001

10. Sam Power

13. Nick Dal Santo
17. James Kelly
19. Jason Gram
21. Matt Maguire
22. Mark Seaby
24. Steve Johnson
29. Lewis Roberts-Thomson
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
38. Ashley Hansen

42. Kieran McGuiness

47. Andrew Welsh
55. Brad Miller
56. Paul Medhurst

57. Brent Colbert

58. Dane Swan
60. Adam Schneider
62. Damon White

71. Brian Lake (Harris)

Drafted poorly, with only Lake being an above average AFL player, Power motoring along at North and McGuiness and Colbert not making it. Only really missed 4 talls in Hansen, Maguire, Miller and Seaby (LRT was a NSW zone selection) with Brian Lake being the steal of the draft; arguably the best tall taken that season of the players still available at our first pick.

2002

4. Tim Walsh

5. Jarrad McVeigh
6. Steven Salopek
7. Andrew Mackie
9. Hamish McIntosh
10. Jason Laycock
12. Jay Schulz
13. Byron Schammer
16. Stephen Gilham

17. Cameron Faulkner

19. Troy Selwood

20. Will Minson

26. Jared Rivers
30. Daniel Merrett

33. Brad Murphy
35. Scott Bassett

37. Brent Staker
45. Kade Simpson
46. Leigh Fisher

49. Cameron Wight

51. Tim Boyle
53. Adam Selwood
55. Ryan Crowley
64. Nick Malceski
72. Brad Fisher

Not a great draft, especially considering all the picks we had. Walsh was cut down with injury, Faulkner and Murphy showed glimpses but never kicked on, Wight was ok for a period but is now on the verge of being de-listed, Bassett was ok and Rhode's choice anyway and Minson is really the only win. The talls we missed were Mackie, McIntosh, Laycock, Schulz, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett, Staker, Boyle and Fisher. None of them are stars of the comp, but Mackie, McIntosh, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett and Boyle would all get a game for us, with not a single one of them being talented enough to be that star key forward we want (Boyle would come the closest). If Walsh had been a bit more lucky with injuries that may have been a good draft for us.


2003

1. Adam Cooney

2. Andrew Walker
3. Colin Sylvia

4. Farren Ray

5. Brock McLean
12. Ryan Murphy
13. Brent Stanton
15. Troy Chaplin
19. David Mundy
20. Sam Butler
23. Matthew Moody
30. Brad Symes
33. Jed Adcock
44. Ricky Dyson
46. Michael Pettigrew

50. Izaac Thompson

53. Daniel Jackson
55. Sam Fisher
58. Ben Hudson
61. Michael Rischitelli
73. Shane Tuck
76. Andrew Raines

Aced the first pick in Cooney, Farren wasn't/isn't half bad, and Thompson was a dud. Missed out on talls in Murphy, Mundy, Pettigrew, Fisher and Hudson, but only Mundy, Fisher and Hudson would get a game for us now, again with none of them being the key forward we want. Trading in Koops for pick 19 was stupid though (could have been Mundy, Symes, Dyson or Adcock instead).

2004

3. Ryan Griffen

4. Richard Tambling
5. Lance Franklin

6. Tom Williams

7. Jordan Lewis
8. John Meeson
9. Jordan Russell
10. Chris Egan
12. Danny Meyer
13. Matthew Bate
14. Angus Monfries
15. Lynden Dunn
16. Adam Pattisson
18. Cameron Wood
19. Ryan Willits
20. Dean Polo
21. Thomas Murphy

22. Jesse Wells

23. Sean Rusling
24. Nathan Van Berlo
27. Pat Garner
29. Matt Rosa
30. Andrew Lee
31. Jarrad Moore
32. Brent Prismall
33. Cain Ackland (re-drafted)
35. Fabian Deluca
37. Mark Le Cras

38. Damien McCormack

40. Ivan Maric
43. Michael Newton
44. Mitch Morton
45. Justin Sherman
53. Simon Taylor

54. Stephen Tiller

56. Chris Knights
58. Brad Moran
62. Matthew Egan
74. Daniel Pratt

Solid draft, Griffen is a good player, and could become elite, Williams could be our CHB for the next decade, Tiller has shown he can play and is sitting on the fringes playign great footy for Williamstown while Wells and McCormack never made it.

We missed out on talls in Buddy, Meeson, Bate, Pattison, Wood, Willits, Murphy, Garner, Ackland, De Luca, Newton, Taylor, Moran and Egan, however only Buddy and Egan would be guaranteed a spot in our side, with Bate, Wood and Newton being in the mix. Take note that Buddy is just the second genuine AFL quality key forward we had missed so far, who at the time was considered a high risk selection with attitude problems.

2005

11. Shaun Higgins

12. Nathan Jones
13. Shannon Hurn
14. Grant Birchall
15. Travis Varcoe
16. Richard Douglas
18. Max Bailey
19. Courtenay Dempsey
20. Paul Bower
22. Beau Muston
23. Ryan Cook
24. Cleve Hughes
26. Garrick Ibbotson

27. Dylan Addison

28. Matt Riggio
29. Ben McKinley
31. Trent West
32. Bernie Vince
33. Sam Gilbert
34. Matthew Spangher
37. John Anthony
38. Travis Tuck (F/S)
39. Jay Neagle (F/S)
41. Rhan Hooper
42. Robert Warnock
43. Andrew Swallow
44. Alipate Carlisle
45. Kasey Green

46. Travis Baird

47. Ryan Gamble
48. Alan Obst
50. Sam Lonergan
53. Simon Buckley
54. Kristin Thornton

55. Brett Montgomery

56. Joel Patfull

57. Michael West

59. Ryan Brabazon
60. Clint Bartram
61. Matthew Stokes
68. Heath Neville

Higgins has proven himself to be very talented, Addison when fit is in our best 22, Montgomery was a good 2 year recruit, Baird showed glimpses but never came on and West did his knee. Missed out on talls in Birchall, Bailey, Bower, Hughes, McKinley, Gilbert, Spangher, Anthony, Warnock, Carlisle, Obst and Patfull, with all but Bailey, Hughes, Spangher and Obst probably making a case for senior selection for us.

McKinley and Anthony would make our side more dangerous up forward, however McKinley is more of a Murphy type forward. Hughes has also shown glimpses, but this season has been in between Coburg's seniors and reserves. Probably the first year where we missed a few quality key position players, but the players we would have had to sacrifice for them (Higgins and Addison) are both good.


Any later drafts are too early to judge, but as you can see we haven't missed out on much quality up forward, with the only key forwards that we could have taken to enhance our forwardline being Buddy, O'Keefe, Hunter, Petrie, Miller, Anthony and McKinley. That's just one a draft, with O'Keefe and McKinley not even being the types of key forwards we need.

As for all the key forwards you mentioned:
Lloyd (1995, before Clayton was at the club), Lucas (Pick 4, 1004, Before Clayton was at the club), Riewoldt (Pick 1, 2001, our first pick was #10), Pavlich (Pick 4, 1999, our first pick was 13 (Murphy)), Tredrea (Zone selection, 1996), Fevola (pick 38, 1998, before Clayton was at the club), Franklin (Pick 5, 2004, we had pick 3 (Griffen)), Roughead (Pick 2, 2004, our first pick was #3), Mooney (Pick 56, 1996, Before Clayton came to the club), Hall (Pick 19, 1995, Before Clayton was at the club), Anthony (Pick 37, 2005, our preceding pick was 27 (Dylan Addison)), Q Lynch (Rookie draft), Petrie (Pick 23, 2000, we had pick 10 (McMahon))

So of those players that you blame Clayton for not getting, he could have only drafted 4 of them, with Lynch evading everyone until the rookie draft and Franklin being overlooked for Griffen. I think we did pretty well all things considered. Draftings much easier in hindsight.

Disclaimer: This is an update of other posts I have made on the same topic, as it continually pops up again and again due to posters not appreciating the inexact science of the draft and being all too happy to jump on the backs of those responsible for choosing the best available 4 players from the pool of hundreds, and even then still relying upon a combination of attitude, development and plain luck for the players to come on.

 

[The Coon Dog]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Soupaman,

Thanks for taking the time to research & post that about the drats.

Its not an exact science & I reckon every club has a cupboard full of hits & misses.

 

[Power_Forward]

Lets just have a look at this then (and yes, I do realise this is a ridiculously massive post).

For those saying clayton has a poor record at picking talls, here are his picks and players he missed out on (Take note that I discount rookie picks on the basis that a) I can't be stuffed, and b) everybody overlooked them atleast 3 times.

1999

13. Robert Murphy

18. Rhyce Shaw (F/S)
19. Brad Green
20. Paul Wheatley
21. Scott Stevens
24. Jason Blake
27. Cain Ackland
28. Brent Guerra
29. Adam Hunter
30. Jonathon Brown (F/S)
31. Paul Chapman

32. Daniel Giansiracusa

34. Leon Davis

35. Patrick Wiggins

36. Rhett Biglands

37. Mitch Hahn

38. Cameron Ling
40. David Hille

43. Lindsay Gilbee

47. Corey Enright
48. Chance Bateman
50. Matthew Whelan
56. Rayn O'Keefe

58. Patrick Bowden

62. Ben Johnson
64. Cameron Bruce

66. Ryan Hargrave

73. Ryan Houlihan

Thats one impressive draft. We drafted key componenets of our side in Murphy, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Gilbee and Hargrave, and had two misses with Wiggins and Bowden. The talls we missed were Stevens, Ackland, Hunter (all inferior to Murphy), Biglands, Hille and O'Keefe. Only Hille, O'Keefe and Hunter would get a game for us now, with Hunter being an ok key forward, and O'Keefe another Murphy.

2000

10. Jordan McMahon

12. Shaun Burgoyne
16. Scott Thompson
18. Daniel Kerr
20. Kane Cornes
23. Drew Petrie
25. Mark Coughlan

26. Shane Birss

29. Jamie Charman (zone selection)
34. Ryan Lonie
39. Adam McPhee
43. Mark Williams
44. Josh Hunt

56. Daniel Cross

58. Nathan Lonie
60. Corey Jones
67. Graham Johncock

70. Wayde Skipper

Not a terrible effort, but nothing great. McMahon has been a servicable AFL player, albeit a frustrating one. Cross has emerged as one of the better inside mids in the comp, Birss could play and was unlucky to be let go of by St.Kilda and Skipper has shown glimpses, but never really kicked on. Barely any talls in this draft were missed by Clayton, with the only talls taken after our first pick being Petrie and Charman, with Skipper being the only other tall still on an AFL list taken after pick 7. Petrie would be a very good key forward for us, but thats it from that draft.

2001

10. Sam Power

13. Nick Dal Santo
17. James Kelly
19. Jason Gram
21. Matt Maguire
22. Mark Seaby
24. Steve Johnson
29. Lewis Roberts-Thomson
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
38. Ashley Hansen

42. Kieran McGuiness

47. Andrew Welsh
55. Brad Miller
56. Paul Medhurst

57. Brent Colbert

58. Dane Swan
60. Adam Schneider
62. Damon White

71. Brian Lake (Harris)

Drafted poorly, with only Lake being an above average AFL player, Power motoring along at North and McGuiness and Colbert not making it. Only really missed 4 talls in Hansen, Maguire, Miller and Seaby (LRT was a NSW zone selection) with Brian Lake being the steal of the draft; arguably the best tall taken that season of the players still available at our first pick.

2002

4. Tim Walsh

5. Jarrad McVeigh
6. Steven Salopek
7. Andrew Mackie
9. Hamish McIntosh
10. Jason Laycock
12. Jay Schulz
13. Byron Schammer
16. Stephen Gilham

17. Cameron Faulkner

19. Troy Selwood

20. Will Minson

26. Jared Rivers
30. Daniel Merrett

33. Brad Murphy
35. Scott Bassett

37. Brent Staker
45. Kade Simpson
46. Leigh Fisher

49. Cameron Wight

51. Tim Boyle
53. Adam Selwood
55. Ryan Crowley
64. Nick Malceski
72. Brad Fisher

Not a great draft, especially considering all the picks we had. Walsh was cut down with injury, Faulkner and Murphy showed glimpses but never kicked on, Wight was ok for a period but is now on the verge of being de-listed, Bassett was ok and Rhode's choice anyway and Minson is really the only win. The talls we missed were Mackie, McIntosh, Laycock, Schulz, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett, Staker, Boyle and Fisher. None of them are stars of the comp, but Mackie, McIntosh, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett and Boyle would all get a game for us, with not a single one of them being talented enough to be that star key forward we want (Boyle would come the closest). If Walsh had been a bit more lucky with injuries that may have been a good draft for us.


2003

1. Adam Cooney

2. Andrew Walker
3. Colin Sylvia

4. Farren Ray

5. Brock McLean
12. Ryan Murphy
13. Brent Stanton
15. Troy Chaplin
19. David Mundy
20. Sam Butler
23. Matthew Moody
30. Brad Symes
33. Jed Adcock
44. Ricky Dyson
46. Michael Pettigrew

50. Izaac Thompson

53. Daniel Jackson
55. Sam Fisher
58. Ben Hudson
61. Michael Rischitelli
73. Shane Tuck
76. Andrew Raines

Aced the first pick in Cooney, Farren wasn't/isn't half bad, and Thompson was a dud. Missed out on talls in Murphy, Mundy, Pettigrew, Fisher and Hudson, but only Mundy, Fisher and Hudson would get a game for us now, again with none of them being the key forward we want. Trading in Koops for pick 19 was stupid though (could have been Mundy, Symes, Dyson or Adcock instead).

2004

3. Ryan Griffen

4. Richard Tambling
5. Lance Franklin

6. Tom Williams

7. Jordan Lewis
8. John Meeson
9. Jordan Russell
10. Chris Egan
12. Danny Meyer
13. Matthew Bate
14. Angus Monfries
15. Lynden Dunn
16. Adam Pattisson
18. Cameron Wood
19. Ryan Willits
20. Dean Polo
21. Thomas Murphy

22. Jesse Wells

23. Sean Rusling
24. Nathan Van Berlo
27. Pat Garner
29. Matt Rosa
30. Andrew Lee
31. Jarrad Moore
32. Brent Prismall
33. Cain Ackland (re-drafted)
35. Fabian Deluca
37. Mark Le Cras

38. Damien McCormack

40. Ivan Maric
43. Michael Newton
44. Mitch Morton
45. Justin Sherman
53. Simon Taylor

54. Stephen Tiller

56. Chris Knights
58. Brad Moran
62. Matthew Egan
74. Daniel Pratt

Solid draft, Griffen is a good player, and could become elite, Williams could be our CHB for the next decade, Tiller has shown he can play and is sitting on the fringes playign great footy for Williamstown while Wells and McCormack never made it.

We missed out on talls in Buddy, Meeson, Bate, Pattison, Wood, Willits, Murphy, Garner, Ackland, De Luca, Newton, Taylor, Moran and Egan, however only Buddy and Egan would be guaranteed a spot in our side, with Bate, Wood and Newton being in the mix. Take note that Buddy is just the second genuine AFL quality key forward we had missed so far, who at the time was considered a high risk selection with attitude problems.

2005

11. Shaun Higgins

12. Nathan Jones
13. Shannon Hurn
14. Grant Birchall
15. Travis Varcoe
16. Richard Douglas
18. Max Bailey
19. Courtenay Dempsey
20. Paul Bower
22. Beau Muston
23. Ryan Cook
24. Cleve Hughes
26. Garrick Ibbotson

27. Dylan Addison

28. Matt Riggio
29. Ben McKinley
31. Trent West
32. Bernie Vince
33. Sam Gilbert
34. Matthew Spangher
37. John Anthony
38. Travis Tuck (F/S)
39. Jay Neagle (F/S)
41. Rhan Hooper
42. Robert Warnock
43. Andrew Swallow
44. Alipate Carlisle
45. Kasey Green

46. Travis Baird

47. Ryan Gamble
48. Alan Obst
50. Sam Lonergan
53. Simon Buckley
54. Kristin Thornton

55. Brett Montgomery

56. Joel Patfull

57. Michael West

59. Ryan Brabazon
60. Clint Bartram
61. Matthew Stokes
68. Heath Neville

Higgins has proven himself to be very talented, Addison when fit is in our best 22, Montgomery was a good 2 year recruit, Baird showed glimpses but never came on and West did his knee. Missed out on talls in Birchall, Bailey, Bower, Hughes, McKinley, Gilbert, Spangher, Anthony, Warnock, Carlisle, Obst and Patfull, with all but Bailey, Hughes, Spangher and Obst probably making a case for senior selection for us.

McKinley and Anthony would make our side more dangerous up forward, however McKinley is more of a Murphy type forward. Hughes has also shown glimpses, but this season has been in between Coburg's seniors and reserves. Probably the first year where we missed a few quality key position players, but the players we would have had to sacrifice for them (Higgins and Addison) are both good.


Any later drafts are too early to judge, but as you can see we haven't missed out on much quality up forward, with the only key forwards that we could have taken to enhance our forwardline being Buddy, O'Keefe, Hunter, Petrie, Miller, Anthony and McKinley. That's just one a draft, with O'Keefe and McKinley not even being the types of key forwards we need.

As for all the key forwards you mentioned:
Lloyd (1995, before Clayton was at the club), Lucas (Pick 4, 1004, Before Clayton was at the club), Riewoldt (Pick 1, 2001, our first pick was #10), Pavlich (Pick 4, 1999, our first pick was 13 (Murphy)), Tredrea (Zone selection, 1996), Fevola (pick 38, 1998, before Clayton was at the club), Franklin (Pick 5, 2004, we had pick 3 (Griffen)), Roughead (Pick 2, 2004, our first pick was #3), Mooney (Pick 56, 1996, Before Clayton came to the club), Hall (Pick 19, 1995, Before Clayton was at the club), Anthony (Pick 37, 2005, our preceding pick was 27 (Dylan Addison)), Q Lynch (Rookie draft), Petrie (Pick 23, 2000, we had pick 10 (McMahon))

So of those players that you blame Clayton for not getting, he could have only drafted 4 of them, with Lynch evading everyone until the rookie draft and Franklin being overlooked for Griffen. I think we did pretty well all things considered. Draftings much easier in hindsight.

Disclaimer: This is an update of other posts I have made on the same topic, as it continually pops up again and again due to posters not appreciating the inexact science of the draft and being all too happy to jump on the backs of those responsible for choosing the best available 4 players from the pool of hundreds, and even then still relying upon a combination of attitude, development and plain luck for the players to come on.

Good analysis, but you'll note I mentioned 16 years he's been recruiting. Lloyd, Lucas, Fevola, Hall were all drafted during his time. You can argue, he only missed one here and two there, but the point is in 16 years he only got Bradshaw.

I'm not saying Clayton was a terrible recruiter, I'm saying he was terrible at drafting KPP. Don't forget he is also the talent scout for picking up players in the preseason and rookie drafts too (and I acknowledge the bulldogs are limited in our number of rookies) and other than Morris (who's a 190cm mid sized player) we've had no sucess there either.

 

[Dogs 13]

I still think boumann is the one for CHF over the next few years. 2010 onwards. He has the athletisism, skill, height to play there. Playing him in the backline has bolsted his deffensive pressure. Grant to me is more a HFF, murphy style. Cordy a FF/ruck. Roughead a mobile ruckman/KPP. Jones is another one to watch as a KPP.The future looks good we just need to be patient with these kids!

Sounds like it's time to start recruiting midfielders again

 

[stefoid]

The only really glaring error he made was Sam Power, in my opinion. In other failed draftees you can see the player that they might have become (macmahon, birss, etc...)

but Power has always been a timid (in terms of risk taking), one-sided, slowish, outside flanker, with poor disposal under pressure and plays small.

Its the combination of low draft pick, invisible potential and lots of high quality players that came after him that makes that selelection such a stinker.

13. Nick Dal Santo
17. James Kelly
19. Jason Gram
21. Matt Maguire
22. Mark Seaby
24. Steve Johnson
29. Lewis Roberts-Thomson
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
38. Ashley Hansen

that is some serious talent right there, of all sizes. If st Kilda win this years premiership it will largely be on the back on that draft.

 

[.M a t t.]

Lets just have a look at this then (and yes, I do realise this is a ridiculously massive post).

For those saying clayton has a poor record at picking talls, here are his picks and players he missed out on (Take note that I discount rookie picks on the basis that a) I can't be stuffed, and b) everybody overlooked them atleast 3 times.

1999

13. Robert Murphy

18. Rhyce Shaw (F/S)
19. Brad Green
20. Paul Wheatley
21. Scott Stevens
24. Jason Blake
27. Cain Ackland
28. Brent Guerra
29. Adam Hunter
30. Jonathon Brown (F/S)
31. Paul Chapman

32. Daniel Giansiracusa

34. Leon Davis

35. Patrick Wiggins

36. Rhett Biglands

37. Mitch Hahn

38. Cameron Ling
40. David Hille

43. Lindsay Gilbee

47. Corey Enright
48. Chance Bateman
50. Matthew Whelan
56. Rayn O'Keefe

58. Patrick Bowden

62. Ben Johnson
64. Cameron Bruce

66. Ryan Hargrave

73. Ryan Houlihan

Thats one impressive draft. We drafted key componenets of our side in Murphy, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Gilbee and Hargrave, and had two misses with Wiggins and Bowden. The talls we missed were Stevens, Ackland, Hunter (all inferior to Murphy), Biglands, Hille and O'Keefe. Only Hille, O'Keefe and Hunter would get a game for us now, with Hunter being an ok key forward, and O'Keefe another Murphy.

2000

10. Jordan McMahon

12. Shaun Burgoyne
16. Scott Thompson
18. Daniel Kerr
20. Kane Cornes
23. Drew Petrie
25. Mark Coughlan

26. Shane Birss

29. Jamie Charman (zone selection)
34. Ryan Lonie
39. Adam McPhee
43. Mark Williams
44. Josh Hunt

56. Daniel Cross

58. Nathan Lonie
60. Corey Jones
67. Graham Johncock

70. Wayde Skipper

Not a terrible effort, but nothing great. McMahon has been a servicable AFL player, albeit a frustrating one. Cross has emerged as one of the better inside mids in the comp, Birss could play and was unlucky to be let go of by St.Kilda and Skipper has shown glimpses, but never really kicked on. Barely any talls in this draft were missed by Clayton, with the only talls taken after our first pick being Petrie and Charman, with Skipper being the only other tall still on an AFL list taken after pick 7. Petrie would be a very good key forward for us, but thats it from that draft.

2001

10. Sam Power

13. Nick Dal Santo
17. James Kelly
19. Jason Gram
21. Matt Maguire
22. Mark Seaby
24. Steve Johnson
29. Lewis Roberts-Thomson
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
38. Ashley Hansen

42. Kieran McGuiness

47. Andrew Welsh
55. Brad Miller
56. Paul Medhurst

57. Brent Colbert

58. Dane Swan
60. Adam Schneider
62. Damon White

71. Brian Lake (Harris)

Drafted poorly, with only Lake being an above average AFL player, Power motoring along at North and McGuiness and Colbert not making it. Only really missed 4 talls in Hansen, Maguire, Miller and Seaby (LRT was a NSW zone selection) with Brian Lake being the steal of the draft; arguably the best tall taken that season of the players still available at our first pick.

2002

4. Tim Walsh

5. Jarrad McVeigh
6. Steven Salopek
7. Andrew Mackie
9. Hamish McIntosh
10. Jason Laycock
12. Jay Schulz
13. Byron Schammer
16. Stephen Gilham

17. Cameron Faulkner

19. Troy Selwood

20. Will Minson

26. Jared Rivers
30. Daniel Merrett

33. Brad Murphy
35. Scott Bassett

37. Brent Staker
45. Kade Simpson
46. Leigh Fisher

49. Cameron Wight

51. Tim Boyle
53. Adam Selwood
55. Ryan Crowley
64. Nick Malceski
72. Brad Fisher

Not a great draft, especially considering all the picks we had. Walsh was cut down with injury, Faulkner and Murphy showed glimpses but never kicked on, Wight was ok for a period but is now on the verge of being de-listed, Bassett was ok and Rhode's choice anyway and Minson is really the only win. The talls we missed were Mackie, McIntosh, Laycock, Schulz, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett, Staker, Boyle and Fisher. None of them are stars of the comp, but Mackie, McIntosh, Gilham, Rivers, Merrett and Boyle would all get a game for us, with not a single one of them being talented enough to be that star key forward we want (Boyle would come the closest). If Walsh had been a bit more lucky with injuries that may have been a good draft for us.


2003

1. Adam Cooney

2. Andrew Walker
3. Colin Sylvia

4. Farren Ray

5. Brock McLean
12. Ryan Murphy
13. Brent Stanton
15. Troy Chaplin
19. David Mundy
20. Sam Butler
23. Matthew Moody
30. Brad Symes
33. Jed Adcock
44. Ricky Dyson
46. Michael Pettigrew

50. Izaac Thompson

53. Daniel Jackson
55. Sam Fisher
58. Ben Hudson
61. Michael Rischitelli
73. Shane Tuck
76. Andrew Raines

Aced the first pick in Cooney, Farren wasn't/isn't half bad, and Thompson was a dud. Missed out on talls in Murphy, Mundy, Pettigrew, Fisher and Hudson, but only Mundy, Fisher and Hudson would get a game for us now, again with none of them being the key forward we want. Trading in Koops for pick 19 was stupid though (could have been Mundy, Symes, Dyson or Adcock instead).

2004

3. Ryan Griffen

4. Richard Tambling
5. Lance Franklin

6. Tom Williams

7. Jordan Lewis
8. John Meeson
9. Jordan Russell
10. Chris Egan
12. Danny Meyer
13. Matthew Bate
14. Angus Monfries
15. Lynden Dunn
16. Adam Pattisson
18. Cameron Wood
19. Ryan Willits
20. Dean Polo
21. Thomas Murphy

22. Jesse Wells

23. Sean Rusling
24. Nathan Van Berlo
27. Pat Garner
29. Matt Rosa
30. Andrew Lee
31. Jarrad Moore
32. Brent Prismall
33. Cain Ackland (re-drafted)
35. Fabian Deluca
37. Mark Le Cras

38. Damien McCormack

40. Ivan Maric
43. Michael Newton
44. Mitch Morton
45. Justin Sherman
53. Simon Taylor

54. Stephen Tiller

56. Chris Knights
58. Brad Moran
62. Matthew Egan
74. Daniel Pratt

Solid draft, Griffen is a good player, and could become elite, Williams could be our CHB for the next decade, Tiller has shown he can play and is sitting on the fringes playign great footy for Williamstown while Wells and McCormack never made it.

We missed out on talls in Buddy, Meeson, Bate, Pattison, Wood, Willits, Murphy, Garner, Ackland, De Luca, Newton, Taylor, Moran and Egan, however only Buddy and Egan would be guaranteed a spot in our side, with Bate, Wood and Newton being in the mix. Take note that Buddy is just the second genuine AFL quality key forward we had missed so far, who at the time was considered a high risk selection with attitude problems.

2005

11. Shaun Higgins

12. Nathan Jones
13. Shannon Hurn
14. Grant Birchall
15. Travis Varcoe
16. Richard Douglas
18. Max Bailey
19. Courtenay Dempsey
20. Paul Bower
22. Beau Muston
23. Ryan Cook
24. Cleve Hughes
26. Garrick Ibbotson

27. Dylan Addison

28. Matt Riggio
29. Ben McKinley
31. Trent West
32. Bernie Vince
33. Sam Gilbert
34. Matthew Spangher
37. John Anthony
38. Travis Tuck (F/S)
39. Jay Neagle (F/S)
41. Rhan Hooper
42. Robert Warnock
43. Andrew Swallow
44. Alipate Carlisle
45. Kasey Green

46. Travis Baird

47. Ryan Gamble
48. Alan Obst
50. Sam Lonergan
53. Simon Buckley
54. Kristin Thornton

55. Brett Montgomery

56. Joel Patfull

57. Michael West

59. Ryan Brabazon
60. Clint Bartram
61. Matthew Stokes
68. Heath Neville

Higgins has proven himself to be very talented, Addison when fit is in our best 22, Montgomery was a good 2 year recruit, Baird showed glimpses but never came on and West did his knee. Missed out on talls in Birchall, Bailey, Bower, Hughes, McKinley, Gilbert, Spangher, Anthony, Warnock, Carlisle, Obst and Patfull, with all but Bailey, Hughes, Spangher and Obst probably making a case for senior selection for us.

McKinley and Anthony would make our side more dangerous up forward, however McKinley is more of a Murphy type forward. Hughes has also shown glimpses, but this season has been in between Coburg's seniors and reserves. Probably the first year where we missed a few quality key position players, but the players we would have had to sacrifice for them (Higgins and Addison) are both good.


Any later drafts are too early to judge, but as you can see we haven't missed out on much quality up forward, with the only key forwards that we could have taken to enhance our forwardline being Buddy, O'Keefe, Hunter, Petrie, Miller, Anthony and McKinley. That's just one a draft, with O'Keefe and McKinley not even being the types of key forwards we need.

As for all the key forwards you mentioned:
Lloyd (1995, before Clayton was at the club), Lucas (Pick 4, 1004, Before Clayton was at the club), Riewoldt (Pick 1, 2001, our first pick was #10), Pavlich (Pick 4, 1999, our first pick was 13 (Murphy)), Tredrea (Zone selection, 1996), Fevola (pick 38, 1998, before Clayton was at the club), Franklin (Pick 5, 2004, we had pick 3 (Griffen)), Roughead (Pick 2, 2004, our first pick was #3), Mooney (Pick 56, 1996, Before Clayton came to the club), Hall (Pick 19, 1995, Before Clayton was at the club), Anthony (Pick 37, 2005, our preceding pick was 27 (Dylan Addison)), Q Lynch (Rookie draft), Petrie (Pick 23, 2000, we had pick 10 (McMahon))

So of those players that you blame Clayton for not getting, he could have only drafted 4 of them, with Lynch evading everyone until the rookie draft and Franklin being overlooked for Griffen. I think we did pretty well all things considered. Draftings much easier in hindsight.

Disclaimer: This is an update of other posts I have made on the same topic, as it continually pops up again and again due to posters not appreciating the inexact science of the draft and being all too happy to jump on the backs of those responsible for choosing the best available 4 players from the pool of hundreds, and even then still relying upon a combination of attitude, development and plain luck for the players to come on.

Bate is hardly a KPP. Normally plays midfield

 

[HK_Bulldog]

I'm not having a pot at Clayton, I think he's done quite a good job for us and his record stacks up well against other clubs.

However, after looking at Soupaman's post, Claytons strike rate with talls is pretty poor. Apart from Lake and hopefully Minson and Williams, most of the talls he's selected have been pretty average.

99 - Selected Wiggins, Bowden, Hargrave. Missed out on Biglands, Hille, O'Keefe. Hargrave is good.
00 - Selected Skipper. Nothing lost, nothing gained
01 - McGuiness, Colbert. Missed Miller and White. Lake was a great get.
02 - Walsh, Minson, Bassett, Wight. Missed McIntosh, Rivers, Merrett, Staker, B Fischer. Minson was a decent selection.
03 - Didn't draft a tall but went with Thompson instead of Hudson who was on our doorstep.
04 - Williams, Wells, Tiller. Williams was a good get. Not Claytons fault he's always injured. Wells a shocker
05 - Baird and West. Both misses. Could've got Gamble and Patfull. Some decent midfielders around in Bartram and Stokes who were available when West was selected.

So out of 14 talls, 1 is excellent (Lake), 2 are very good (Williams, Hargrave) and 1 is serviceable (Minson). 28% strike rate.


Compare that to the midfielders that Clayton drafts and his strike rate is way better.

99 - Murphy, Gia, Hahn, Gilbee. All good selections
00 - McMahon, Birss, Cross. Cross Good, McMahon serviceable
01 - Power. Was a miss, plenty of better players available
02 - Faulkner, Murphy - Both Misses
03 - Cooney, Ray, Thompson. Missed on Thompson
04 - Griffen, McCormack. Missed on McCormack
05 - Higgins, Addison, Monty - All good selections.

So out of 18 mid-sized players, 6 are excellent (Murphy, Gilbee, Cross, Cooney, Higgins, Griffen). 1 Very Good (Gia), 5 are serviceable (Hahn, McMahon, Ray, Addison, Monty). 67% strike rate.

 

[chef]

Then I would have preferred Taylor Walker to Chris Ogle

A number of clubs were after Walker, but he chose to sign with Adelaide. We were never a chance to get him.

 

[The Coon Dog]

03 - Didn't draft a tall but went with Thompson instead of Hudson who was on our doorstep.

'Ben Hudson will never play AFL football' quote our (mastermind) coach at the time. Clayton was not permitted to draft him, much to his & the recruiting staff's annoyance.

 

[stefoid]

basset was a trade?

to be fair, walsh was selected on coaches orders, clayton was sweet on mackie.

 

[chef]

basset was a trade?

to be fair, walsh was selected on coaches orders, clayton was sweet on mackie.

Taken at pick 35 in the 2002 national draft.

 

[Gooka]

What about developing talls? Are we able to develop them into the players they should be? We've had talls on our list over the past decade, but only 1 has come on - why?

 

[murphy2bedabest]

Good analysis, but you'll note I mentioned 16 years he's been recruiting. Lloyd, Lucas, Fevola, Hall were all drafted during his time. You can argue, he only missed one here and two there, but the point is in 16 years he only got Bradshaw.

I'm not saying Clayton was a terrible recruiter, I'm saying he was terrible at drafting KPP. Don't forget he is also the talent scout for picking up players in the preseason and rookie drafts too (and I acknowledge the bulldogs are limited in our number of rookies) and other than Morris (who's a 190cm mid sized player) we've had no sucess there either.

As i said in my first post show me a recruiter with a better Strike rate then Clayton, now im not saying that his is great, but i would say he would be about Par with any other recruiter.

Then look at the drafts that we had early picks, we couldn't pick up a Riewoldt or Kossie, or Pavlich, Fraser even Kruzer, ok we had a chance to pick up Buddy, but im more then happy with Griffen.

Just on Bradshaw, Did Clayton need to Draft any more Key Forward? They Traded for Lynch and got Leppa fron Fitzroy and would have seen Brown coming years before he was drafted in 1999, and also Traded for Michael, Their Spine is set up right there.

How will you see Clayton as a KPP recruiter in 5 years time if Grant Everitt Tiller Willaims Boumann and Roughead come on?

 

[Power_Forward]

As i said in my first post show me a recruiter with a better Strike rate then Clayton, now im not saying that his is great, but i would say he would be about Par with any other recruiter.

Then look at the drafts that we had early picks, we couldn't pick up a Riewoldt or Kossie, or Pavlich, Fraser even Kruzer, ok we had a chance to pick up Buddy, but im more then happy with Griffen.

Just on Bradshaw, Did Clayton need to Draft any more Key Forward? They Traded for Lynch and got Leppa fron Fitzroy and would have seen Brown coming years before he was drafted in 1999, and also Traded for Michael, Their Spine is set up right there.

How will you see Clayton as a KPP recruiter in 5 years time if Grant Everitt Tiller Willaims Boumann and Roughead come on?

Justin Leppitsch- Pick 4, 1992 draft, Southern U18's

Griffen is a serviceable player we hope may one day turn into the elite players he threatens to, Franklin might have won us the flag last year. Everyone has 20-20 vision in hindsight, but there's no question Franklin would've been a better choice thus far.

If that occurs I will see it as a surprise. I just hope they don't turn out to be Walsh, Wight, Skipper, Street, Baird, etc

 

[Dazb86]

If they all come on do you think we could become too top heavy? What we need to draft is a quick small forward.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

If they all come on do you think we could become too top heavy? What we need to draft is a quick small forward.

If they all come on, that would be bl**dy fantastic.
No such thing as having too many quality players on the list. It would give us depth, flexibility and trading leverage.

The thing with drafting is that you are constantly refreshing and balancing your list. If a player doesn't come on, it's actually a double blow. Not only is that gap on your list still vacant but you need to use another draft pick or trade another player to have another go at filling that gap.

You do that too many times and gaps spring up everywhere. Every list decision has flow on consequences.

Walsh, Wells and West failed, therefore we're still investing picks and players on a tall forward.
Wiggins, Wight failed, so we were forced to invest in Hudson and Street.

On the flip side, Cooney, Higgins, Boyd, Gilbee, Cross etc succeeded which allowed us to use our recent first and second rounders on talls.

 

[stefoid]

Walsh, Wells and West failed, therefore we're still investing picks and players on a tall forward.
Wiggins, Wight failed, so we were forced to invest in Hudson and Street.

.

So dont draft talls starting with 'W' is what Im hearing.