Ebert

[peejay]

Originally posted by Mr Q


I don't recall the great Stephen Michael ever moving east to play in the VFL.

yeah but sometimes prestige and money isn't enough - i might suggest his background had a bit to do with it .

 

[peejay]

Originally posted by Eago77


Obviously an untrue statement, if it was true then the Ebert's Cornes' and Robran's to name but three would have been playing there for a lot longer and when they were a lot younger. Fact is the VFL wasn't a heck of a lot better in those days, it was better (deeper talent pool) but not by what some would have us believe.

I guess people with no drive (or courage)prefer to be a big fish in a little pond !

 

[peejay]

Originally posted by kaysee


It was more a case of Victorian clubs going interstate and throwing large amounts of cash at interstate star footballers. The VFL only become a higher standard after they recruited other players from around Australia and eventually became the AFL, before then the standard of the VFL was no better then elsewhere.

If Victorian clubs had succeeded in drawing ALL of the best players from other states then the non-Vic players would have dominated the VFL and Victorians would have only complained about it... in fact doesn't sound disimilar to what is happening in todays AFL.

SKC

My arguement is not how it happened - rather it happened.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by peejay


My arguement is not how it happened - rather it happened.

Argument? What argument? All you've done is pile a few uninformed outlandish generalisations based on your own skewed perceptions on top of each other. That is not an argument, debate or even a discussion.

 

[DaveW]

Saying Russell Ebert can't be rated as a great player because he didn't play much in the VFL is like saying Sachin Tendulkar can't be rated as a great player because he's never played sheffield shield.

 

[Vindaloo Mat]

Originally posted by MarkT

We are talking about a player regarded as an all time great. he did not perform to anything more than the level of the average AFL player in his short time at North.

I am not canning him. As I said he was a SANFL great. If all his great footy was played there then by definition that is all he can ever be regarded as. That is not an insult but the fact is he did not prove himself in the best competition so people who only watched that competition will not rate as high as SANFL fans.

FWIW I was a Port Magpies fan and took an interest in all their players. I am not ingnorant of deeds and I don't discount them in their context. It is the context that is where the conjecture comes in though. There is no doubt that the VFL had a far greater depth of eleite players than any other comp. You can argue the why and wherefores of that but it is fact.

a bit short sighted IMHO.....

for me the logic is simple. For the sake of simplicity lets define "elite" player as someone who is in or on the verge of All Australian selection.

You accept today that about half of the AA side will have originated from outside Victoria (last year it was > half this year about half but on average it will be about 50%). So, indeed Victoria had a greater depth than other states....but you then use this to suggest that the elite player from SA (say Tredrea in today's context) was less of a player because he was playing in a competition with less elite players. I fail to see the signifiance. If Tredrea is playing on Welman in the AFL you accept the contest between 2 good players....if Tredrea (PA) is playing on Welman (Glenelg) then you do not value the contest as highly....well it is the same contest !!!

Fact....all of your VFL greats did not have to play on the best players in the land. Today you accept that Johnathon Hay (say) is the best CHB in the comp and nothing has changed in the water in WA so from time to time at least 50% of the pinnacle players would not have been playing in Melbourne.

Was Jack Regan the best full back in the land in the 1920'sand 30's ??? Well apart from State Games he did not play on Ken Farmer who was arguably the best FF in the land (when they did play KF average 5 goals a game against JR)....but you somehow question the status of SANFL players (Farmer) by only recognising their achievements in the SANFL context....yet do not raise the same issues about the achievements of VFL players (Regan).

This changes in the 1980's where clearly much of the talent went to Victoria, but the SANFL has been going for 125 years so this is a minute part of the overall history of the game.

VM

 

[Docker_Brat]

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
If Tredrea is playing on Welman in the AFL you accept the contest between 2 good players....if Tredrea (PA) is playing on Welman (Glenelg) then you do not value the contest as highly....well it is the same contest !!!

Excellent analogy.

I'm sure if players like Ebert, Cornes and Davies had been recruited by a Victorian club at age 18, as is the case with players today, rather than go over in the twilight of their careers, then more Victorian football supporters would recognise their talent.

 

[peejay]

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane


Argument? What argument? All you've done is pile a few uninformed outlandish generalisations based on your own skewed perceptions on top of each other. That is not an argument, debate or even a discussion.

If the VFL was not the preimer competition in the land prior to the AFL forming - may i ask what was???

And you cannot seriously suggesting that players from outside this comp were not aiming to make the grade in it. If you are then refer to my earlier post regarding big fish in little ponds. Sure there were great players ouside the VFL but questions will always be asked because they did not come over.

Can't you except that the AFL is great competition because it grew on the strength of the VFL. The VFL is no longer with us but to all of you who were not interested in it - please don't try and ignore its place in the history and prominence of the game. Remember Aussie rules was exported to all the other states from its birthplace in Melbourne.

 

[Leaping Lindner]

Barrie Robran once 'outraged' Ron Barrassi by saying that family was more important than football.
Also when Geelong were desperate for his services they handed him a blank cheque and said to him to fill it out.He politely declined.
I think this says it all about Barrie's character and integrity!

PS - Vindaloo Mat ,Sean Wellman is from North Adelaide!

 

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by peejay


Can't you except that the AFL is great competition because it grew on the strength of the VFL. The VFL is no longer with us but to all of you who were not interested in it - please don't try and ignore its place in the history and prominence of the game. Remember Aussie rules was exported to all the other states from its birthplace in Melbourne.

And by the same token don't ignore the significance of the WAFL and SANFL in the history and prominence of the game

PS - Back to the original thread.Russell Ebert was an out and out champion END OF F**KING STORY (and that's coming from a North fan!)

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by peejay



If the VFL was not the preimer competition in the land prior to the AFL forming - may i ask what was???

And you cannot seriously suggesting that players from outside this comp were not aiming to make the grade in it. If you are then refer to my earlier post regarding big fish in little ponds. Sure there were great players ouside the VFL but questions will always be asked because they did not come over.

Can't you except that the AFL is great competition because it grew on the strength of the VFL. The VFL is no longer with us but to all of you who were not interested in it - please don't try and ignore its place in the history and prominence of the game. Remember Aussie rules was exported to all the other states from its birthplace in Melbourne.

I'm not the one making assumptions about the strengths of the various competitions - you are. It seems to me you're the one denigrating the value of other states' competitions - I never wrote anything about the pre-eminence or otherwise of the then VFL.

What I object to is you placing 2002 values on a 1970s landscape. Your claim that "every player outside Vic was busting a gut to play here" is ludicrous. It is ill informed and the point of Vic cheque waving also misses the point. Every player was not busting a gut. Many, many players in local comps like the SANFL were happy to compete in their own competition, even though they could easily have made it in the VFL and were frequently courted by VFL clubs waving big cheques. It wasn't a matter of big fish/small pond, it was a lifestyle choice and a belief that the difference between the competitions was not so great as to need to compromise that, and a loyalty to their local club and competition.

Just from the point of view of the club I support, Russell Ebert was the second player I can ever recall going from Port to the VFL (the first was Max James). Did he do it for the $$$? One season, I don't think so. He may have gone to learn how to improve his game, and to be coached by a legend to expand and improve his own football perspective, but certainly not for the money or some macho desire to prove his worth. His worth was well known. Greg Phillips waited 8 years, Craig Bradley played 100 games with Port before he went, Martin Leslie 5 years, Tim Evans came to Port from the VFL and never went back. Port legends like John Cahill, Brian Cunningham, Bruce Light never went at all. Do you think it was because they weren't courted by VFL clubs? If you do, then you are deluding yourself. I'm sure supporters of other SA clubs can name many similar players.

I doubt you know anything about the strength and vibrancy of "interstate competitions" like the SANFL and so I don't see how you can make any assumptions about why players chose to stay or go.

 

[gretel_killeen]

Hate to break it to you vics, but the VFL was NOT that far ahead of the SANFL in terms of quality back then. Watch a tape of a VFL game from the 70's, then watch one of the SANFL. Not alot of difference from week to week. The VFL did have MORE quality, but the best players in the SANFL were generally as good as the best in the VFL. And once again, many great SANFL players didn't bother going to the VFL for the SIMPLE reason that they had jobs and businesses and familes in Adelaide. The pay rise to play in the VFL didn't make up for losing all that. There was always state of origin, if a player really wanted to prove himself. There was no real need to play in the VFL to prove anything.

Andrew McLeod would still be as good a player, if he was playing for Port in the SANFL. To suggest he wouldn't be is silly. Same went for Ebert. Difference is, McLeod can make 500k a year playing in the AFL, or 30k a year playing in the SANFL. 25 years ago, that wasn't the case.

 

[mic59]

Originally posted by MarkT
If Russle Ebert, Robran or anyone wanted to be recognised on a wider scale they could ahve moved States and changed comps. They didn't so they remain SANFL legends who never proved themselves in the best comp. You caanot say they were no good for that reason though.

Intelligent comment here. Barry Robran was in fact, as I'm sure you know, raised to legend status in the Hall of Fame; a decision not made lightly and not just based on his service to the game in SA. Although if types like John Elliott and The Ewok had anything to do with it you'd only see Victorians in the Hall.

 

[Wishinman]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.......Morale of this Story is the son of the Greatest Player of the most Successful club in Australia will be playing in the Silver, Teal and Black and White!!!

Who gives a fu(k what u Victorians think. All Port supporters are extremely happy to see the name Ebert play on. If Brett is half as talented as his dad, he will still be better than the average AFL player......especially with the extra training and coaching that todays players get.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by gretel_killeen
Hate to break it to you vics, but the VFL was NOT that far ahead of the SANFL in terms of quality back then. Watch a tape of a VFL game from the 70's, then watch one of the SANFL. Not alot of difference from week to week. The VFL did have MORE quality, but the best players in the SANFL were generally as good as the best in the VFL.

The was a significant difference in game style. The Vic game was tighter and the SA game was more open. many (generalisation) of the more successful SA players in the VFL were the free flowing types. Some could not cope with the Vic style and some could.

IMO the real mark of the relative strength of the comps is not the SA players who came to the VFL but the struggling VFL players who went to the SANFL. Players like Daryl Schimelbusch (sp? srooy Rooyboy, thought I'd never have to type it again!) Russel Johnson etc went because they were sub par but had good careers in the SANFL. Some even player for SA.

The stars of each comp were stars in their own right. The average, run of the mill player is where the gap was IMO. That is why it was a little harder to dominate in the VFL but gifted players adapted and were stars (Blight etc). Players like Ebert and even Phillips waited too long and were too old to adapt enough to be gun players. Players like Bradley who came over youngish could adapt or be used in role fitting their skills.

I recall when Cahill left Collingwood he took a few fringe players with him. Neville Shaw was one. I used to follow the progress of these guys from time to time and they did better than they would have at Collingwood without any doubt.

Not that it has anything to do with the post, but the Neville Shaw brawl footage was a particular highlight. Got a god run on the news etc over here. I forget the game but it was a ripper.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Docker_Brat
I'm sure if players like Ebert, Cornes and Davies had been recruited by a Victorian club at age 18, as is the case with players today, rather than go over in the twilight of their careers, then more Victorian football supporters would recognise their talent.

Quite likely. Quite likely they actually would have been better player though also. They would have played on better players more often IMO. That of course ia based on a premise of greater depth in the VFL which some dispute though.

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
You accept today that about half of the AA side will have originated from outside Victoria (last year it was > half this year about half but on average it will be about 50%). So, indeed Victoria had a greater depth than other states....but you then use this to suggest that the elite player from SA (say Tredrea in today's context) was less of a player because he was playing in a competition with less elite players. I fail to see the signifiance. If Tredrea is playing on Welman in the AFL you accept the contest between 2 good players....if Tredrea (PA) is playing on Welman (Glenelg) then you do not value the contest as highly....well it is the same contest !!!

It comes down to whether there was greater depth in the VFL. If there was, then it was, by definition, harder to perform consistently at the top level. Whether half the AA level players originated from Vic or not (and pre 80’s I would think they did) is less relevant than whether they played in the VFL. The VFL always had better interstaers coming in the its exports out. It is very difficult to go back to pre 40’s/50’s because all any of us can do is base speculation of second hand reports that have probably been stretched over time.

Your example is true to the extent that the contest is the same relative context but the respective level of the players performance is influenced by the standard of the comp. that just brings us bac to the same original argument.

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
Fact....all of your VFL greats did not have to play on the best players in the land.

Don’t dispute that.

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
Was Jack Regan the best full back in the land

Of course, he played for Collingwood.

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
....but you somehow question the status of SANFL players (Farmer) by only recognising their achievements in the SANFL context....yet do not raise the same issues about the achievements of VFL players (Regan).

I didn’t say the VFL performances were measurable outside a VFL context at all. The debate was not about that and I didn’t mention it. I do believe the overall standard was better in the VFL due to greater depth and more elite players. To my mind that elevates the efforts somewhat. How much is impossible for me to conceptualise. If you dispute the premise that the VFL was any better as a competition then my whole argument is flawed if you are right. I understand that but I believe my premise is correct. I doubt either of us could prove our case though..

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
This changes in the 1980's where clearly much of the talent went to Victoria, but the SANFL has been going for 125 years so this is a minute part of the overall history of the game.

IMO the 80’s was a golden era for SA players and that is predominantly why emphasis shifted from WA to SA recruits in the VFL. The accuracy of that statement means nothing much in the context of this debate though. I do not think that the SANFL was not a comp worthy of a significant place in AFL or Australian history. I do think the VFL was consistently a better comp and in the end the best comp became the National comp by process of evolution. Whatever the reasons you ascribe to prominence of the VFL in forming a National AFL, the fact is the strongest comp. is the one that did.

 

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by MarkT

IMO the real mark of the relative strength of the comps is not the SA players who came to the VFL but the struggling VFL players who went to the SANFL. Players like Daryl Schimelbusch (sp? srooy Rooyboy, thought I'd never have to type it again!) Russel Johnson etc went because they were sub par but had good careers in the SANFL. Some even player for SA.

.

Whilst you are right on this point in that many fringe VFL players went to the SANFL and had good careers trust me Daryl Schimelbusch's stint in the SANFL was nothing to write home about!

 

[peejay]

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane




Greg Phillips waited 8 years, Craig Bradley played 100 games with Port before he went, Martin Leslie 5 years, Tim Evans came to Port from the VFL and never went back. Port legends like John Cahill, Brian Cunningham, Bruce Light never went at all. Do you think it was because they weren't courted by VFL clubs? If you do, then you are deluding yourself. I'm sure supporters of other SA clubs can name many similar players.

No dud from a comp outside the VFL made it in the VFL - only great players from SA, WA & TAS. But the Tim Evans example you use shows that players that struggled in the VFL could star in other competitions.

Individual great players who did not play VFL must be numerous - just think how many must have been playing up north but because of lack of resources or opportunity will never be known. But as a competition, week in week out player on player it surely was a higher standard.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by peejay


No dud from a comp outside the VFL made it in the VFL - only great players from SA, WA & TAS. But the Tim Evans example you use shows that players that struggled in the VFL could star in other competitions.

Individual great players who did not play VFL must be numerous - just think how many must have been playing up north but because of lack of resources or opportunity will never be known. But as a competition, week in week out player on player it surely was a higher standard.

But I've not been arguing which was the better comp. If you want me to say it, fine. I think the VFL was the higher standard comp if, to begin with, for no other reason than numerical advantages in population, and the gap between the comps widened through the 80s onwards, probably due to TV exposure, escalating salaries, the attraction of the cream from interstate and all of the increased professionalism those demands brought.

What I've taken issue with is your blanket statement attacking the talent and commitment of players who didn't join the VFL around the time of Russell Ebert. You said players were busting a gut to join the comp - then accused them of small pond/big fish syndrome if they didn't. It was not the case - and you haven't given a single example yet to back up your case in that regard - it's all just generalisations based on what you believe to be so. Hence the examples I gave to give some perspective.

And how do you define a dud? Someone that doesn't make it in the VFL? That's a pretty convenient definition. Guess what? Duds didn't make it in the SANFL either. Of course the VFL took players who were the cream from other states. Why else would they offer top dollar, unless they were the best available. And why would they recruit honest toilers when they had those in abundance already from their own state.

As for Tim Evans, he came to Port Adelaide at 21 as a 50 game player with Geelong at Centre Half Back - hardly a struggler. Port turned him into a Full Forward, where he became a legend of the PAFC. He was made many offers to return to Geelong (as well offers from other clubs) but he was happy with the lifestyle in Adelaide. When asked about it he once replied "A dollar in Adelaide is worth the same as a dollar in Melbourne".

 

[AlfAndrews]

Originally posted by The Ewok


Can't recall any Port Adelaide Football Club running around playing Essendon 20 odd years ago when the older Ebert loins were productive

Heard stories of something by that name playing in an inferior league out west

About the same time that Essendon was playing in an inferior league called the V.F.L.

 

[peejay]

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane




What I've taken issue with is your blanket statement attacking the talent and commitment of players who didn't join the VFL around the time of Russell Ebert. You said players were busting a gut to join the comp - then accused them of small pond/big fish syndrome if they didn't. It was not the case - and you haven't given a single example yet to back up your case in that regard - it's all just generalisations based on what you believe to be so. Hence the examples I gave to give some perspective.

Michael Aish comes to mind right away but i think we have both made our points.

Might be time to look at some other topics !!!!

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by peejay


Michael Aish comes to mind right away but i think we have both made our points.

Might be time to look at some other topics !!!!

Don't start the Norwood supporters on Michael Aish ...

New topics, I think you may be right

 

[BIG DADDY]

Put it this way.......

If Brett Ebert turns out to be 1/2 as good as his ol man....

he will be the equal of the likes of Voss, Buckley, Black etc

If he's as good or better than he ol man.....look out