Society/Culture Elon Musk abandons crypto

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Number37 said:
Tell me how they determine that a $20 Itunes card allows you spend $20 spend in the AppStore? ie How is it worth $20?

While you're at it, tell me how you purchased your $20 Itunes card. Didn't you just trade $20 for a card?
What do you reckon your redress would be if Apple said "psyche, your Itunes card is worthless, thanks for the 20 bucks sucker!!"?
Click to expand...
1. By agreement between you and Apple. Not imposed by the government.

2. You traded $20 for the right to $20 worth of Apple store digital stuff. Which you only have the right to use, not onsell. The government isn't involved apart from via contract law and consumer law.

3. It depends the terms of your agreement with Apple. They may have a clause that renders your agreement void under some circumstances and you cannot get a refund of $20 fiat currency.

An iTunes card is not fiat.
 
Number37 said:
Tell me how they determine that a $20 Itunes card allows you spend $20 spend in the AppStore? ie How is it worth $20?

While you're at it, tell me how you purchased your $20 Itunes card. Didn't you just trade $20 for a card?
What do you reckon your redress would be if Apple said "psyche, your Itunes card is worthless, thanks for the 20 bucks sucker!!"?
Click to expand...
Do you also think that the tokens they give you at an arcade are fiat money?
 

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Richard Cranium said:
Do you also think that the tokens they give you at an arcade are fiat money?
Click to expand...

Yes.
So are casino chips and lots of other things.


The fiat doesn't come from it being something the govt did, the fiat comes from it being a decree. A decree can be made by anyone.
You are entering into a contract.
You can decree whatever terms you want in a contract, it is up to the other party to agree to the terms, or not.
 
This is silly. NOBODY thinks of anything but government issued currency when you say "fiat currency".

NOBODY would say a game arcade coin is "fiat currency".

If you want to call it that, I don't care. Unfortunately, crypto is then fiat currency under your definition.
 
Number37 said:
Yes.
So are casino chips and lots of other things.


The fiat doesn't come from it being something the govt did, the fiat comes from it being a decree. A decree can be made by anyone.
You are entering into a contract.
You can decree whatever terms you want in a contract, it is up to the other party to agree to the terms, or not.
Click to expand...
You're right about the contract part, wrong about the rest. It's a commercial transaction, which is why it's legally enforceable. Nothing more, nothing less. You buy an itunes card, you give apple $20 dollars, they give $20 worth of products in return.

You're taking the 'worth something different to its physical value' bit too literally, and ignoring the more important 'issued by a govt/monetary sovereign' part.

And really, this is first year uni stuff, maybe even high school. Believe me or don't, whatever. I'm just stating facts here.
 
Richard Cranium said:
You're right about the contract part, wrong about the rest. It's a commercial transaction, which is why it's legally enforceable. Nothing more, nothing less. You buy an itunes card, you give apple $20 dollars, they give $20 worth of products in return.

You're taking the 'worth something different to its physical value' bit too literally, and ignoring the more important 'issued by a govt/monetary sovereign' part.

And really, this is first year uni stuff, maybe even high school. Believe me or don't, whatever. I'm just stating facts here.
Click to expand...

First year Uni stuff---> It is legally enforceable because the $20 you give Apple is consideration, consideration which forms the basis of a binding agreement between you and Apple.
Can't have a binding agreement without consideration. <----First year uni stuff



In between you giving Apple $20 and them giving you $20 worth of products , you hold a little card that entitles you to that value.
The card represents the $20 you gave them.
The card, by itself, is worthless. Fiat.
The card, with the $20 credit, becomes currency.
Currency only valid in the Appstore (by decree) but currency nonetheless.

Unless currency and fiat are restricted to meaning only one thing.
Which they aren't.
 
Number37 said:
First year Uni stuff---> It is legally enforceable because the $20 you give Apple is consideration, consideration which forms the basis of a binding agreement between you and Apple.
Can't have a binding agreement without consideration. <----First year uni stuff



In between you giving Apple $20 and them giving you $20 worth of products , you hold a little card that entitles you to that value.
The card represents the $20 you gave them.
The card, by itself, is worthless. Fiat.
The card, with the $20 credit, becomes currency.
Currency only valid in the Appstore (by decree) but currency nonetheless.

Unless currency and fiat are restricted to meaning only one thing.
Which they aren't.
Click to expand...
Fine man, you do you and go against literally everyone else on this. I really don't care. Good luck buying lunch with leftover TimeZone tokens.
 
Chief said:
This is silly. NOBODY thinks of anything but government issued currency when you say "fiat currency".

NOBODY would say a game arcade coin is "fiat currency".

If you want to call it that, I don't care. Unfortunately, crypto is then fiat currency under your definition.
Click to expand...

A game arcade coin isn't currency that has any value outside of the game arcade, that doesn't mean it isn't currency inside the game arcade.
If you find an arcade token lying in the gutter you would probably think meh...but I reckon if you found a casino chip lying in the gutter most would pick it up and go to the casino to cash it in.
 

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Does anyone disagree with the following definition?

Fiat money is a government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
www.investopedia.com

Fiat Money: What It Is, How It Works, Example, Pros & Cons

Fiat money is a government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver. Read more about dollars, euros, and other fiat money.
www.investopedia.com www.investopedia.com
 
Evolved1 said:
Does anyone disagree with the following definition?

Fiat money is a government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
www.investopedia.com

Fiat Money: What It Is, How It Works, Example, Pros & Cons

Fiat money is a government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver. Read more about dollars, euros, and other fiat money.
www.investopedia.com www.investopedia.com
Click to expand...

China has a rich history of using fiat money. The earliest being the use of deer skins with special embroidery more than 2000 years ago.
The first paper fiat money is also Chinese. Issued by a group of traders during the Song Dynasty. The group of traders formed a company, a bank. That bank went bust and the Emperor had to step in to guarantee the value of the notes issued.
Many of today's money transfer companies (like Western Union) started out as non-govt backed fiat money.
There are still many places in the world where commerce is enabled by non-govt backed fiat money.
The idea that fiat money is ONLY fiat money backed by govt is not supported by the facts.
 
Chief said:
This fiat Bitcoin...
Click to expand...

Could be, couldn't be. It depends.
Whether it is, or isn't, doesn't prove or disprove what is and what isn't fiat money.
The facts don't support the assertion that fiat money is ONLY fiat money backed by govt.
Plenty of examples of non govt backed fiat money around the world.

Surely it isn't that controversial to suggest so??
 
Evolved1 said:
Returns are generated by selling for a higher price than you paid, just like shares, property, and precious metals.
Click to expand...

is crptocurrency an asset or a currency? if it is a currency, it is supposed to be the storage of wealth........not wealth creation

anything that claims it is one thing but is another, warrants questions
 
Yes there have been bank-issued fiat currencies. But those were also used for more than buying digital items from Apple.

You're taking an archaic and uncommon meaning and applying it incorrectly anyway.

Nobody would use the term for an arcade token. You can if you want. Crypto is now fiat. So it has no reason to exist at all.
 
I thought it was pretty evident that Musk uses both his hold over Tesla, his own private funds and his twitter following to manipulate and profit from a very volatile traded commodity.

Imma call it a commodity since it appears the Bitcoins are arranged into unique sets.

I would argue that the value of the Bitcoin is that it can't be broken/stolen/duplicated/manipulated.

Do I think that value is worth what people are paying for it? No. But that's why I've never bought any. I've missed potential large gains as well as potential large losses.
 
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