Embarrassed

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#26
There were was not even close to 30 players better then Williams in that draft let alone 60! Other clubs, some with millions more dollars to spend on recruiters picked Meeson, Russell, Thomson, Meyer, Egan, Bate, Dunn, Pattinson, McQualter with their FIRST picks.(and don't forget Tambling at pick 2)

Williams has a lot to prove but he's better then what the other clubs got with their first roll of the dice(or years of recruiting)

Let's not make things up to spit on the club. We have enough things to criticise the team for already that don't involve making things up.
He is a dud Butane, spin it however you want. A terrible player, particularly when we could have had a hard nosed Jordan Lewis instead.
The fact that he is a dud is not the point, the point is that the club cannot bank future success on his back when he is such a poor player.
If he is being considered as a pillar then we are in SERIOUS trouble.
 

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#27
2004 wasnt a great year of recruits but don't get carried away, 23 players in that draft have played more games than he has.
Yes, he has had a lot of injuries, but he also was playing for a club that had nobody else of his size so he has a lot of soft games he shouldnt have got.
 

Olde 54

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#28
You're right Butane. Although, in Tom's case, his physical attributes far outweigh his abilites and have certainly coloured the club's thinking, both in his initial recruitment and renewing his contract since.

Averaging less than 10 AFL games a season, for eight years, is a very poor return on investment for the club. Perhaps the wisest thing to have been done was cut him loose last contract time and recruit someone who can play and get on the paddock. But then again 6ft 6inch players don't grow on trees.

Geez, just looking at that draft and what the Hawks got - Roughie, Franklin and Lewis all going in the top 10. No wonder they've been succesful since.
 

Igloo

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#29
The only players that went after Williams that retrospectively I would take before him are Jordan Lewis, Mark leCras and maybe Ivan Maric, but even before this year he wasn't that good.
Williams has done really good jobs on some of the best power forwards in the league. Far from a dud.
 

Butane

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#30
He is a dud Butane, spin it however you want. A terrible player, particularly when we could have had a hard nosed Jordan Lewis instead.
The fact that he is a dud is not the point, the point is that the club cannot bank future success on his back when he is such a poor player.
If he is being considered as a pillar then we are in SERIOUS trouble.
I didn't say Williams was a top/good player.

I was just saying he was a lot better then most players in the draft. I don't feel like making things and exaggerating adds anything to the discussion.

For what it's worth I think he still carries a question mark over his head. Just like 90% of our list.
 

dogwatch

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#31
He is a dud Butane, spin it however you want. A terrible player, particularly when we could have had a hard nosed Jordan Lewis instead.
The fact that he is a dud is not the point, the point is that the club cannot bank future success on his back when he is such a poor player.
If he is being considered as a pillar then we are in SERIOUS trouble.
I'm generally with Butane on the topic of Tom Williams but a few comments on what has been said in this discussion:
1. "We could have had Lewis." Of course we could. You can go back and cherry pick every draft for the last 15 years with 20/20 hindsight and pick an unbeatable side (if you had the salary cap to play them together). Equally we could have had a lot worse than Williams ... and many clubs did. Sorry, but that argument doesn't wash with me.

2. "Has only played 10 games a year for the last 8 years ... poor return on investment" (Olde's comment). True but that's mostly due to injury otherwise he would have played well over 100 games by now. Hardly his fault and doesn't invalidate his selection in the draft. Is Cooney's knee his fault? Was Sachse's? Does that make them duds?

4. A related point ... I reckon "dud" is an offensive term for someone who really works hard (especially in lengthy rehab) and gives it everything on the field as Tom does. Fair enough if you're talking about a Jordan McMahon or a Sam Power but I think Williams deserves more respect than that.

3. "A pillar ... we're in serious trouble" I have to agree here. No-one is saying he's a champ and I wouldn't describe him as a "pillar" but the reason we are in serious trouble right now is because we followed a list management strategy which has left us with only about 3-4 able-bodied first 22 players in the 25-28 year range. That age range should be the core of the side and we have very few of them and only 2-3 really good ones (Griffen and Picken, perhaps Minson as well).
 

Olde 54

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#32
I'm generally with Butane on the topic of Tom Williams but a few comments on what has been said in this discussion:
1. "We could have had Lewis." Of course we could. You can go back and cherry pick every draft for the last 15 years with 20/20 hindsight and pick an unbeatable side (if you had the salary cap to play them together). Equally we could have had a lot worse than Williams ... and many clubs did. Sorry, but that argument doesn't wash with me.

2. "Has only played 10 games a year for the last 8 years ... poor return on investment" (Olde's comment). True but that's mostly due to injury otherwise he would have played well over 100 games by now. Hardly his fault and doesn't invalidate his selection in the draft. Is Cooney's knee his fault? Was Sachse's? Does that make them duds?

4. A related point ... I reckon "dud" is an offensive term for someone who really works hard (especially in lengthy rehab) and gives it everything on the field as Tom does. Fair enough if you're talking about a Jordan McMahon or a Sam Power but I think Williams deserves more respect than that.

3. "A pillar ... we're in serious trouble" I have to agree here. No-one is saying he's a champ and I wouldn't describe him as a "pillar" but the reason we are in serious trouble right now is because we followed a list management strategy which has left us with only about 3-4 able-bodied first 22 players in the 25-28 year range. That age range should be the core of the side and we have very few of them and only 2-3 really good ones (Griffen and Picken, perhaps Minson as well).
I too generally go along with Butane on this. Williams isn't a dud. However, he isn't a Pavlich or Reiwoldt either. He's an average player who, if he wasn't the size he is, wouldn't be playing AFL. He was taken as a speculative selection, a project player if you want (think Mulligan, and for that matter Cordy, here too).

His inability to string games together, whether his fault or not, should be of a concern to the club. Bottom line is they are paying him full wage during his down time and getting a return of 50%, over his career, on their 100% outlay. The club should have cut their losses last contract renewal time and let Tom go.
 
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#33
My point on this is that he was picked as a number 6 draft pick. We could have picked him up with our next pick, he was off everybodys radar. Nobody knew who he was, when you have a speculative pick you don't waste number 6 on it. If we used 22, 38 or 54 on him I might not have been as scathing. Apart from Griffen the rest of out picks were ordinary Jesse Wells, Damian McCormack, Stephen Tiller. The rookies were Rohan Nayna and Dale Morris :)
I reckon we could have got Tom with the Wells or McCormack pick and gone for a player who was not a project player with 6.
I remember at the time people like Shifter Sheahan were very surprised with our selection of Tom.
 

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#34
. He was taken as a speculative selection, a project player if you want (think Mulligan, and for that matter Cordy, here too).
Is using Cordy in the same sentance as Mulligan and Williams a cardable offence, if not it should be, Cordy was not a speculative pick at all, he is a high end talent.
 

Butane

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#35
My point on this is that he was picked as a number 6 draft pick. We could have picked him up with our next pick, he was off everybodys radar. Nobody knew who he was, when you have a speculative pick you don't waste number 6 on it. If we used 22, 38 or 54 on him I might not have been as scathing. Apart from Griffen the rest of out picks were ordinary Jesse Wells, Damian McCormack, Stephen Tiller. The rookies were Rohan Nayna and Dale Morris :)
I reckon we could have got Tom with the Wells or McCormack pick and gone for a player who was not a project player with 6.
I remember at the time people like Shifter Sheahan were very surprised with our selection of Tom.
But it's just pure speculation that's nearly a decade old. William was being watched by every club in the league as stories of his ability spread. He probably wouldn't have even made it to pick 10 or 11 let alone our next pick. I've already listed the other so called 'certain talent' that other clubs used for their first picks and unless the Bulldogs had a special crystal ball that other clubs didn't have then we fared OK out of it all.
 

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#36
Cant see how anyone could think recruiting Williams has been anything less than mediocare.People can sugar coat it all they like it has been costly like so many of our other recruiting coups have been. Walsh,Faulkner and Rawlings are names that come to mind.
 

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Igloo

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#37
Cant see how anyone could think recruiting Williams has been anything less than mediocare.People can sugar coat it all they like it has been costly like so many of our other recruiting coups have been. Walsh,Faulkner and Rawlings are names that come to mind.
Every club can say this about a particular selection in every single year though, that's why it isn't a huge mistake. As I mentioned before, there is literally only 2 or 3 guys I would still take over Williams. The 2004 draft was one of the worst of all time.
 

Olde 54

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#38
Is using Cordy in the same sentance as Mulligan and Williams a cardable offence, if not it should be, Cordy was not a speculative pick at all, he is a high end talent.
At this point in time we'll agree to disagree on Cordy as a high end talent. I have seen little in the games I've watched him to tell me he is anything out of the ordinary. I hope I'm wrong.

At the time of his recruitment he barely weighed 75kgs, if I remember correctly. At 7foot tall that ain't much weight to throw around. Certainly came well pedigreed and had sound experience at junior level. And, of course we were always going to take him. But, you can't tell me that at that point in time, with that build, he was anything but a speculative pick. Don't be misled by the apparatchik propaganda.

Now we are four years into his career and he's played what, 13 games? He still needs to stack on another 5-10 kgs to fill out his frame. He's suffered a number of shoulder injuries(Williams sound familiar). and has been played out of position. I agree he ain't no Mulligan, but "high end' - no.
 

Testekill

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#39
Cant see how anyone could think recruiting Williams has been anything less than mediocare.People can sugar coat it all they like it has been costly like so many of our other recruiting coups have been. Walsh,Faulkner and Rawlings are names that come to mind.
There was literally no depth in that draft. The top five picks were genuine talents (and Tambling but that's with the benefit of hindsight) and from there it was speculative picks.


Let's look at the first 20 picks.

Priority 1 Brett Deledio Murray Bushrangers Richmond
Priority 2 Jarryd Roughead Gippsland Power Hawthorn
Priority 3 Ryan Griffen South Adelaide Football Club Western Bulldogs
1 4 Richard Tambling Southern Districts Football Club Richmond
1 5 Lance Franklin Perth Football Club Hawthorn
1 6 Tom Williams Morningside Football Club Western Bulldogs
1 7 Jordan Lewis Geelong Falcons Hawthorn
1 8 John Meesen Geelong Falcons Adelaide
1 9 Jordan Russell West Adelaide Football Club Carlton
1 10 Chris Egan Murray Bushrangers Collingwood
1 11 Adam Thomson Sturt Football Club Port Adelaide
1 12 Danny Meyer Glenelg Football Club Richmond
1 13 Matthew Bate Eastern Ranges Melbourne
1 14 Angus Monfries Sturt Football Club Essendon
1 15 Lynden Dunn Calder Cannons Melbourne
1 16 Adam Pattison Northern Knights Richmond
1 17 Andrew McQualter Gippsland Power St. Kilda
1 18 Cameron Wood West Adelaide Football Club Brisbane Lions
1 19 Ryan Willits Northern Knights Port Adelaide
2 20 Dean Polo

The only player outside of the top 5 that is a major contributer to their team is Jordan Lewis. Russell does alright and Monfries does contribute at times but it was a seriously shallow draft.
 
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#40
But it's just pure speculation that's nearly a decade old. William was being watched by every club in the league as stories of his ability spread. He probably wouldn't have even made it to pick 10 or 11 let alone our next pick. I've already listed the other so called 'certain talent' that other clubs used for their first picks and unless the Bulldogs had a special crystal ball that other clubs didn't have then we fared OK out of it all.
I doubt he was even on the radar of other clubs, it was leaked in the press that we were keen on him. If it wasn't leaked in the press i doubt other clubs would have bothered.
It's all supposition anyway, our drafting in that period was horrible. High draft picks aplenty with little reward Ray, Walsh, Williams, Everitt, Power. We got it right with Cooney and Griffen, unfortunately Cooney is finished.
I think it is ironice that we have almost had more success from the rookie drafts than we have from our first-round draft picks.
 
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#41
Jorda
Yes it was a shallow draft, hence why risk a high pick on a speculative player who had barely played any football at all. Someone who had come from a union background? Use a later pick on him. At the time it wasn't being spoken of as a shallow draft, but it obviously was looking back in retrospect.
Russell, Bate, Monfries, Van Berlo (later in draft) are all players I would have selected before Tom. McQualter, Polo, Wood, Dunn, Tambling are all still on lists and getting games in AFL
 

acker

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#42
The only players that went after Williams that retrospectively I would take before him are Jordan Lewis, Mark leCras and maybe Ivan Maric, but even before this year he wasn't that good.
Williams has done really good jobs on some of the best power forwards in the league. Far from a dud.
I might be as abstract as Picasso - but there is something I like about Tom Williams + Jarrad Grant operating in tandem in the Bulldogs forward line - it might be a fuzzy portrait now, but I think there is something to work on - add a Plugger Lockett / Barry Hall immovable muscle forward - like perhaps Jack Redpath and this Pumpkin of a Forward Line might quickly turn into a Diamond studded one.

Optimism and like the low pixel Mars explorer photo's - it slowly grows into High Definition

I also remember Rocket Eade saying at some stage that Williams (from Queensland) and a Rugby Union player did not have natural football (AFL) smarts but would eventually learn to play CHF

I think we are seeing this now - and Jarrad Grant now looks like he has shaken off the sense of it will automatically come his way, and is putting in the hard training needed to sustain his talent.

I think there are good times ahead Dog's
 

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Moderator #43
Jorda

Yes it was a shallow draft, hence why risk a high pick on a speculative player who had barely played any football at all. Someone who had come from a union background? Use a later pick on him. At the time it wasn't being spoken of as a shallow draft, but it obviously was looking back in retrospect.
Russell, Bate, Monfries, Van Berlo (later in draft) are all players I would have selected before Tom. McQualter, Polo, Wood, Dunn, Tambling are all still on lists and getting games in AFL
You could make a case that Lewis (definitely), Monfries (sometimes) and Van Berlo (maybe) are at or above William's level but that's about it. Williams may well end up better than all of them, except Lewis. He was a speculative pick at 6 but not the shocker that many claim he has been.
 
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#44
You could make a case that Lewis (definitely), Monfries (sometimes) and Van Berlo (maybe) are at or above William's level but that's about it. Williams may well end up better than all of them, except Lewis. He was a speculative pick at 6 but not the shocker that many claim he has been.
A terrible pick sorry, never a number 6
 
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