Entertainment Value

[Kildonan]

I love my footy.

I also love my Saints.

I am a lover of the fast flowing, highly skilled football that the Saints can produce.

I know that last year I was devastated with the awful display of football against the Swans. I may have been more disgusted by the fact that we played that ugly and we lost as well.

I am still disappointed by the style of footy we played Saturday night.
I console myself that its a "horses for courses" thing - that we play Sydney at their own game and simply bore them out of the match. (While Goodes was snoring we snatched the ball away and kicked at goal - missing but scoring enough points to win the match).

I had a look at my comments from the last match:

Half Time:

Sydney Swans: 5.5.35
St Kilda Saints: 5.5.35

Best for the Saints: Lukey Ball Leigh Montagna
and for the Swans: Adam Goodes, Brett Kirk

This is one of the worst spectacles I have ever watched.
No wonder the Sydney public are slow in support of AFL football - if this is the tripe served up to them - I don't blame them for turning to League !

Sydney Swans: 9.7.61
St Kilda Saints: 8.9.57

The worst game of footy continues.
A free kick to Swans gives them a goal after the siren that we couldn't afford to let them have.

Hudghton is a champion

I agree with MSG that we are carrying too many players who do not contribute consistently. It must be remembered though that some players do sacrifice their game for the team. So statistics don't always bear out who those players are.

Tonights game wasn't really a personnel problem. We simply weren't able to match Sydney for sheer boredom. They play a game where they possess the ball or put it out of bounds. That's why they need such good ruckmen - to give them an advantage from the sheer number of throw ins that results from their style of play. They have to be highly skilled to play this style of play - and we quite frankly can't match it with them on the skills front. Our kicking is deplorable and laughable at times.

The loss of Goddard is telling, he is so highly skilled that we came to rely on him and it has taken us half a season to partially compensate for his absence.
Sydney saw this as fundamental to our demolition. They stopped Sam Fisher (who has taken Goddard's role) and they stopped Dal Santo (our next best kick) as well as Harvey and Gram (our most noted running players).

Sadly Sydney have received fewer free kicks than their opponents most of the season because of their style of play, but even so they managed the better of the free kicks when it came to playing the Saints. What was consisently paid as holding the ball against the Saints was merely a ball up when the Swans did exactly the same thing.

Frustrating but not really changing the result in any way. We simply were outsmarted by a better coach and a more highly skilled squad who played boring but winning football.

Is this where football is permanently headed?

The boring stuff that frustrates rather than entertains?

I know the Sydney public are happy - they don't seem to require entertainment - just victory - but I believe that I speak for a vast unvoiced majority who are not happy that bad football results in victory.

The Saints season is all but over after this loss. I am sad because of this, but I am also disappointed that football continues to be headed towards a boring nondescript unentertaining continuation of the Sydney style of play.

We have served up this junk everytime we have lost this season..

Lyon needs to pull something out when a team negates what we are doing. What worries me at present is a few things

1 - The 4th Qtr fade outs obviously
2 - We dont look fit enough ..
3 - A lack of attacking flair when needed.

We are the complete opposite of the team under GT (I have been one of GT's biggest critics here) I hated the fact that we were not accountable under GT and we had too many goals kicked on us.

Now we cant kick enough goals !!! .. somewhere there has to be a happy medium. Lyon doesnt seem the sort of coach to take a risk. Sometimes it is exactly what is needed.

Statistics say a lot:

Average score per game:

2007 - for: 81.47 / against: 86.68 (first 19 games)

2006 - for: 93.05 / against: 79.64 (excl. finals)

2005 - for: 109.41 / against: 82.09 (excl. finals)

2004 - for: 111.05 / against: 86.77 (excl. finals)

We obviously scored more goals between 2004 and 2006 - but we also had less goals kicked against us !

Our scoring average this year is just marginally higher than that of 2002 (15th after Rd 22) and otherwise the worst of the last ten years !

I agree with StKildonan that the Sydney style is boring to watch, but our current results aren't really spectacular either ! It appears incomprehensible and almost ridiculous to score an average of less than 82 per game with Riewoldt, Gehrig, Koschitzke and Milne as (potential) forwards !

I agree with StKildonan I want to watch a game of football, not something that is morphed between League & AFL.

That game was a complete shocker, Swans fans don't care about the crap they are served up each week, they just want to win.

Has ANYONE ever seen a Mexican wave at the football before? I couldn;t stop laughing when the crowd started doing a mexican wave ....

If I continue to watch such crap served up, I along with a lot of people are just going to stop watching .

Okay, so it's troll, but let's give the guy a decent answer to his question - what's so wrong with just winning at all costs?

Here you go. The joy of winning comes, sir, at the END of the game, and is usually a state of enjoyment that's well, a big build up, then big intense moment, then relief. The intense moment is just that, a moment - five minutes. If it lasts at all afterwards, it's because of the build up - how the game was actually played out. Now, marry this with the fact that the game itself should be entertaining - it is not just a means to an end (winning), it is meant to be entertainment in and of itself - the drama of a player breaking a tackle, bouncing the ball three times as he charges into the 50m arc, he passes, receives a pass back, he kicks above the goal posts, we all wait, hush, then the goal ump pokes both fingers out, and the roar of the crowd. A game of footy isn't just one game, it's the collection of hundreds of little ones, little stories we love when we see them, and relish and remember for years afterwards. That's why watching two hours of footy is like watching a good two-hour movie.

But if all that the little games become are "stoppage, scrambled kick, stoppage" and "kick to loose players FOREVER on the backline" that's bad for three reasons. Firstly, the two hours of actually watching the game becomes dull - you might as well just look up the final score in the newspaper (if you don't believe me, compare NRL and AFL game attendances). And secondly, the big intense joy at victory is inherently linked to the buildup - lousy games leave a sour taste in the mouth. Finally, you have the flag, but Sydney doesn't have the stories. My dad still can tell me heaps of little stories from the Jeans era, and leave a glow as good as the one that comes from him telling me about winning the flag in 66. When you tell your kids about these "glorious" 11 years, all you'll be able to do is tell them where you finished in the ladder, and how many flags you won. If GT had been allowed to keep going, we'd tell stories of Thomas' team, of flow, drama, innovation... and a flag or two. When Lyon's coached at his best this year is when he's remembered what GT knew, and lived - footy is really an entertainment business, not a stat. When he's forgotten this and played it safe and defensive, we've lost anyway.

Long post, but I hope it's worthwhile. StKildonan, I understand exactly where you're coming from...

You are very correct, unfortunately.

I was so dimsayed at a game last year, against Richmond, which we won, that I did not really care about the result, I just wanted it to be over.

I am not sure how I would feel about that if we won a premiership though. But one thing is for sure, only one team a year can win a premiership, for the others it is all about the journey, and how entertaining it was.

What are your thoughts?

Is it OK to play UGLY if it means we win?

Can we play free flowing footy and still be as effective?

 

[clobba]

The Quote you linked from persevering Saint was mostly spot on with how I feel, the result is important yes but not at the expense of the experience. I must admit that "negative" styled footy is well named as all it does is subtract from excitement, pace and enjoyment.

I have no problems with our being more accountable on field but as has been said plenty of times before by others "Playing to not lose isnt the same as playing to win"

On Saturday at the finish I was just glad it was over...not from excitement and wanting to hold onto the win but basically just wanting the travesty over.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Suck it up.

We get flooded, we will flood.

simply if we don't flood and we get flooded, we will get outscored as was shown on Sat. Night, it isn't easy to kick goals when the MEGA flood was on.

 

[clobba]

in reply to "suck it up" bite my crank :

I said in other posts I can live with an ugly win as they happen occassionally and wasnt blaming the entire episode on RL by anymeans, the OP's question though was is it OK to play ugly if it means we win?
vs sides that are willing to do it there isnt a hell lot of alternative at times but if it became our default gamestyle I would personally rather lose and enjoy the game like I did when I went to the footy in the 80's and 90's...I certainly wouldnt have given a crap about the Sainters if I had been fed Sydney style crap in my formative years.

 

[ChrisFooty]

Flooding is okay if we win. However, if we do it every week we will not win many games.

I think this is just a thing for Swans matches.

 

[35Harvs]

It is certainly not entertaining to watch, and if we played like that every week we'll be turning people away.
But, was thinking over the weekend, really a few years ago if we got out of the blocks as we did on Sat night, and Sydney grinded us down, I don't think we would of held on to win.

IF we have to play "ugly" against sides that force us to do it & we win, I can live with that, as long as its not OUR game plan.

 

[agileoolong]

It is certainly not entertaining to watch, and if we played like that every week we'll be turning people away.
But, was thinking over the weekend, really a few years ago if we got out of the blocks as we did on Sat night, and Sydney grinded us down, I don't think we would of held on to win.

IF we have to play "ugly" against sides that force us to do it & we win, I can live with that, as long as its not OUR game plan.

The worst thing St Kilda done was make Ross Lyon coach...The saints were one of the most entertaining footy teams going around until he started coaching...now it is hard to watch a saints game...and you cant say its just cos of Sydney cos i remember the worst game of football ever played was between the saints and the hawks last yr

 

[35Harvs]

really? coz i thought one of the worst games last year was also Hawks vs Lions... using your theory,Hawthorn play a bad brand of footy.And we both know that is not the case.

Hawks vs Saints was a shocker ( I sat at the G till the bitter end ..) but we did go in quite undermanned, can't quite remember but I think we had about 25 players available that night, so think we were pushed into playing ultra defensive to minimise what could have been a nice towel up.

how 'bout we wait until after this weekend?

 

[sainter]

how 'bout we wait until after this weekend?

I think there's been a major overreaction to Saturday's performance.

I mean I was there and I was suitably unimpressed but it was round one against a notoriously negative football team. Having won the previous four weeks there was always the chance of a let down and despite the disappointing performance we were once again able to claw our way over the line.

In the next four weeks we've got Carlton, Western Bulldogs, Geelong and Essendon. Four clubs that play a vastly different style of game to the Swans. We should be in a much better position to comment on our style of play after these games.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

I think there's been a major overreaction to Saturday's performance.

I mean I was there and I was suitably unimpressed but it was round one against a notoriously negative football team. Having won the previous four weeks there was always the chance of a let down and despite the disappointing performance we were once again able to claw our way over the line.

In the next four weeks we've got Carlton, Western Bulldogs, Geelong and Essendon. Four clubs that play a vastly different style of game to the Swans. We should be in a much better position to comment on our style of play after these games.

Exactly. The players themselves knew what they were in for and you could see how happy they were to get the win. This week's game will be a completely different story.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Thanks for the quotation Kildonan.

Look, I love an arm-wrestle. And to some extent that's what Saturday was. But it just has to be balanced. I WANT to see the ball get tied up as one of our players wraps up the opposition and dumps him into the ground. It's just when that's all it is that it becomes crap - when all the flare, dash, and SCORING are taken out of the equation. If that's what the St Kilda Football Club is coming to, take the dog out the back and shoot it, the thing's done.

I am very hopeful that this isn't the case, and given the NAB Cup performance (two weeks ago - how quickly we forget), I think we're safe.

 

[Squizz]

Ross seems a bit quick to employ a flood, particularly against his old team. Seems to be win at all costs against the Swans.

I have maintained for a while that we haven't had the right tactics against these teams.

Yes, we have recruited well with rucks and runners. This goes some way, although I still think we need another good draft of runners in our depth players.

The tactics. For me, we have Ball, Lenny, Dal, X and Harvs who are good at stoppages. When countered with a flood, there are 4 options :

• Chip sideways to free up a player or side of the ground (chip sideways to players who can't move it on doesn't seem a worthwhile option). We do not seem to have the confidence to move it on quickly after the chip pass a la Geelong.
• Bomb to the top of the square and hope for a mark, quick crumb, or error in the opposition rebound. This relies in having depth in the kick or good screening, which do not seem to be strengths of ours (Kosi wants to fly for everything and Grammy's one of the few who can sink the slipper).
• Try to pinpoint a leading player (almost impossible on smaller grounds unless your skills levels are spot on). We were not successful with this - either through lack of vision or Not-Quite-Right skills.
• Have set plays to get the ball over the line deep off hands, and rely on your stoppage work (unless you can snag a mark).

I do not know why we are not (never) using option 4. To me, this is one of the Swan's key tactics which kept them in the game. They got 60-70m without risk a number of times. I assume Lyon is well aware of the merits of it. You get yardage, and can create space.

At the end of the day, we can cop the odd scrap but if it becomes the norm the game will become almost unwatchable except to the diehards. The surface is perfect and we are indoors - hopefully this is just a Saints v Swans problem.

 

[Big Nasty]

Adelaide played the exact way against us last year, at there home and at ours. The first one we only just won, the second game we didn't win by much also. But we did win and shown that Geelong could play any style and still win. Just like St.Kilda did this week. I'm sure most of the time Ross Lyon will have you playing Attacking football, but like us, playing that style of game can only help you.

 

[Kildonan]

The worst thing St Kilda done was make Ross Lyon coach...The saints were one of the most entertaining footy teams going around until he started coaching...now it is hard to watch a saints game...and you cant say its just cos of Sydney cos i remember the worst game of football ever played was between the saints and the hawks last yr

This is simply not true. Ross Lyon is a superb coach, I don't question his suitability to the position one little bit.

There is something inherrently wrong with the direction footy is heading.

Teams which play safe, boring, non-entertaining football are rewarded with wins and are a greater chance of winning a premiership.

This is the reverse of how it should be.

My concern is that the spark of creativity that many of the Saints players have demonstrated frequently in the past, is being dampened and they are instead playing safe repetitive football with little entertainment value.

Now if this direction led to them losing matches then that would encourage flair and entertainment, but it doesn't.

 

[P.J.M]

This is simply not true. Ross Lyon is a superb coach, I don't question his suitability to the position one little bit.

There is something inherrently wrong with the direction footy is heading.

Teams which play safe, boring, non-entertaining football are rewarded with wins and are a greater chance of winning a premiership.

This is the reverse of how it should be.

My concern is that the spark of creativity that many of the Saints players have demonstrated frequently in the past, is being dampened and they are instead playing safe repetitive football with little entertainment value.

Now if this direction led to them losing matches then that would encourage flair and entertainment, but it doesn't.

Isnt this a contradiction?? The loss of spark and creativity is a direct result of the directions of the coaching panel, lead by Ross Lyon.

Ross has missed the boat. Attacking football is winning games, Geelong won the GF last year by 119 points with attacking football. Collingwood smashed the swans in the elimination final, with attacking football.

The sooner Ross Lyon wakes up the better. Or of not, then our administration needs tp. Defensive, garbage football (like kicking 6 goals for the game) is out.

We have one of the best forward lines (and list overall) and until we (Ross) are prepared to back our players to win a CONTEST, then we will continue to struggle.

How much do you think Geelong would have destroyed us by on the weekend, playing the way we did?? Flooding EVERY player into sydneys forward 50, 5 minutes into the game?? What a disgrace.

 

[ChrisFooty]

Major overreaction. Did St.kilda play a boring brand of football against Richmond, Geelong, Essendon and Adelaide? No. It may of not been the best four games in history, but the saints played nothing like the Swans match. Sometimes you need to play ugly in order to give you the best possible chance of securing four points. Im very confident this will not happen every single week.

 

[Savatage]

Major overreaction. .

Damn straight!

 

[P.J.M]

Major overreaction. Did St.kilda play a boring brand of football against Richmond, Geelong, Essendon and Adelaide? No. It may of not been the best four games in history, but the saints played nothing like the Swans match. Sometimes you need to play ugly in order to give you the best possible chance of securing four points. Im very confident this will not happen every single week.

It may be an overeaction, I guess only time will tell. I'm not anti saints or anything, just frustrated with the recent (last 12 months) direction of the club.

One question, when collingwood or geelong play sydney, do you think (or have they recently) tried to beat them by playing them at their own game (flooding/negative garbage), or have they played their own game and beat them on their merits??

Why do we try and play them at their own game?? We are a much better side than sydney!!

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

It may be an overeaction, I guess only time will tell. I'm not anti saints or anything, just frustrated with the recent (last 12 months) direction of the club.

One question, when collingwood or geelong play sydney, do you think (or have they recently) tried to beat them by playing them at their own game (flooding/negative garbage), or have they played their own game and beat them on their merits??

Why do we try and play them at their own game?? We are a much better side than sydney!!

Lot different playing them at the MCG in the Collingwood case mate. Plenty more space unlike the Telstra Dome. Our finals against them would back this up.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Let me ask y'all, did we stop playing the way we did in the first quarter (27 points, with the potential for it to be far more, to 6!) because Sydney got tougher, or because WE chose to close down shop. In my humble opinion, it was largely (though I admit, not entirely) option 2 - WE shut down, protecting a decent lead. Not only did that make the game boring, but for a miraculous miss by Sydney, we would've lost the game with those tactics. But what if we'd plyed four quarters like the first?

I know which game I would've rather watched.

 

[Sir Robert]

Let me ask y'all, did we stop playing the way we did in the first quarter (27 points, with the potential for it to be far more, to 6!) because Sydney got tougher, or because WE chose to close down shop. In my humble opinion, it was largely (though I admit, not entirely) option 2 - WE shut down, protecting a decent lead. Not only did that make the game boring, but for a miraculous miss by Sydney, we would've lost the game with those tactics. But what if we'd plyed four quarters like the first?

I know which game I would've rather watched.

Gotta disagree.

What is this obsession with people and high scoring games... Do you all get wet or something when Milney is jumping around or something.

I was at the game as well and I actually though apart from the goal kicking it was a good hard game. Edge of your seat stuff.

Is it because Andrew Demetriou and his bum buddies have stated high scoring is the only way to go? FFS!

The game was end to end all night with some sh!thouse shots on goal!

 

[P.J.M]

Lot different playing them at the MCG in the Collingwood case mate. Plenty more space unlike the Telstra Dome. Our finals against them would back this up.

True, fair point, collingwood did play the swans at the MCG in that final. But does that mean you are saying that if we played them at the MCG we would have played a completely different game?

I'm not sure about that, remember (another) one of those terrible games we were involved in, Hawthorn at the G? Yes, i know we were undermanned that night but so what, does that mean we shouldnt have a go? In my opinion (not saying its right) we should have had a crack that night, just as we should have last saturday night. Whatever happened to the underdog getting up, or the heroics from an underanned side? Maybe we would have lost, so what? Thats the game. It just seems to me that we are far too negative under Lyon. We were the lowest scoring side in the competition last year! With our list, and forward line! Ridiculous.

Anyway, as i said earlier, i'm not anti saints. Just frustrated with the way we seem to want to play the game. Especially when we see free flowing, exciting football from other (top) sides.

Last week was last week now, so hopefully we can come out and smash the blue baggers this week, with our team on paper, we should!

 

[P.J.M]

Gotta disagree.

What is this obsession with people and high scoring games... Do you all get wet or something when Milney is jumping around or something.

I was at the game as well and I actually though apart from the goal kicking it was a good hard game. Edge of your seat stuff.

Is it because Andrew Demetriou and his bum buddies have stated high scoring is the only way to go? FFS!

The game was end to end all night with some sh!thouse shots on goal!

Edge of your seat stuff? Come on mate, are you serious? Every player flooding back? No space anywhere? No free flowing, running football? No players taking a risk and using their instinct? 12 goals scored for the entire game? Did you see the way the bombers played? To me, that is edge of your seat stuff. I think we're in for some sensational football when we see some of these attacking sides take each other on.

I think you might have missed the point if you're saying that its all about high scoring. Its not, its about footballers playing football. Backing themselves and playing the game. Trying to win the game, not trying to lose the game. Not negative, defensive football. If that means a high scoring game, then so be it. If it means a low scoring game, then so be it too. Its not about that, its about the contest, and the way that game is played. Take a risk, back your players. If we have the better team (which most often we should) then trust them to beat their man, to win the contest, and the team to win the game.