Fallout: 2022

[Keys]

How exactly will west coast be making finals in 2025 ? So your logic is you a supporter know more than all the outside media, right. Not a view I agree with and seems extremely biased but each to their own. I generally agree with your definition of a rebuild although it's not black and white and some rebuilds can be half arsed. Ive detailed my reasons in many posts as to why I believe this rebuild will take longer and no one has been able to argue against those points as yet.

I’m going to use Sydney as an example

2016 - Lost a GF to the Bulldogs
2017 - Defeated Essendon easily in the elimination final then list the semi-final to Geelong
2018 - Narrowly lost (1 point) to GWS in an elimination final
2019 - Finished 15th with 8W/14L
2020 - Finished 16th with 5W/12L

That’s not dissimilar to our run from 2018-2022.

In 2021 they returned to the finals, losing in the first week and now they’re playing in a GF. At the end of 2020, how many people do you think were predicting that

Now Sydney’s list at the end of 2020 was in better shape than ours is right now - This is the 26 named for tomorrow’s GF and when they arrived at Sydney - emergencies have been bolded

2009 - Reid (Pick 38)
2010 - Parker (Pick 40)
2012 - Cunningham (RD)
2013 - Franklin (FA), Rampe (RD), Lloyd (RD)
2014 - Heeney (Pick 18*)
2015 - Mills (Pick 3*)
2016 - Florent (Pick 11), Hayward (Pick 21), Papley (RD)
2017 - T McCartin (Pick 33), Fox (RD)
2018 - Clarke (Trade), Blakey (Pick 10*), Rowbottom (Pick 25), McLean (SSP), McInerney (Pick 44)

2019 - Stephens (5), Gould (Pick 26), Warner (39)
2020 - Hickey (Trade), McDonald (Pick 4), Campbell (Pick 5*), Gulden (Pick 32*)
2021 - P McCartin (SSP)

* Academy selections

They’ve been aided by academy selections but have also made some astute mid draft and rookie selections

We’re behind because we effectively traded out of the 2019 and 2020 drafts to bring Kelly in and our drafting in the years before then was a mixed bag

The 2021 draft crop however has some promise and Ryan, Sheed, Kelly, Allen, Duggan, Darling, Cole, and Barrass should still be around to play good football. Whilst some of Waterman, O’Neill, Jones, Petruccelle, both Edwards, SPS, Williams and Jamieson may come good

We have possibly 4 picks under 30 in this years draft and some more high picks in 2023 and 2024. By which time we should have salary cap room to chase free agents or trade targets

A lot can happen in 3 years (good and bad) so to categorically state we won’t be making finals is unduly pessimistic. I’m not saying it’s a certainty either, but a return to finals by 2025 is not out of the question

 

[Westcoast88]

I’m going to use Sydney as an example

2016 - Lost a GF to the Bulldogs
2017 - Defeated Essendon easily in the elimination final then list the semi-final to Geelong
2018 - Narrowly lost (1 point) to GWS in an elimination final
2019 - Finished 15th with 8W/14L
2020 - Finished 16th with 5W/12L

That’s not dissimilar to our run from 2018-2022.

In 2021 they returned to the finals, losing in the first week and now they’re playing in a GF. At the end of 2020, how many people do you think were predicting that

Now Sydney’s list at the end of 2020 was in better shape than ours is right now - This is the 26 named for tomorrow’s GF and when they arrived at Sydney - emergencies have been bolded

2009 - Reid (Pick 38)
2010 - Parker (Pick 40)
2012 - Cunningham (RD)
2013 - Franklin (FA), Rampe (RD), Lloyd (RD)
2014 - Heeney (Pick 18*)
2015 - Mills (Pick 3*)
2016 - Florent (Pick 11), Hayward (Pick 21), Papley (RD)
2017 - T McCartin (Pick 33), Fox (RD)
2018 - Clarke (Trade), Blakey (Pick 10*), Rowbottom (Pick 25), McLean (SSP), McInerney (Pick 44)

2019 - Stephens (5), Gould (Pick 26), Warner (39)
2020 - Hickey (Trade), McDonald (Pick 4), Campbell (Pick 5*), Gulden (Pick 32*)
2021 - P McCartin (SSP)

* Academy selections

They’ve been aided by academy selections but have also made some astute mid draft and rookie selections

We’re behind because we effectively traded out of the 2019 and 2020 drafts to bring Kelly in and our drafting in the years before then was a mixed bag

The 2021 draft crop however has some promise and Ryan, Sheed, Kelly, Allen, Duggan, Darling, Cole, and Barrass should still be around to play good football. Whilst some of Waterman, O’Neill, Jones, Petruccelle, both Edwards, SPS, Williams and Jamieson may come good

We have possibly 4 picks under 30 in this years draft and some more high picks in 2023 and 2024. By which time we should have salary cap room to chase free agents or trade targets

A lot can happen in 3 years (good and bad) so to categorically state we won’t be making finals is unduly pessimistic. I’m not saying it’s a certainty either, but a return to finals by 2025 is not out of the question

You kinda prove my point on many things I've already pointed out.
I'm simply trotting out the same points but they are relevant and cannot be sidestepped in my view whether you like it or not.

You wish to use Sydney but we are not Sydney not by a long shot. I actually was not surprised to see Sydney shoot back up the ladder not when you consider the following.

1. Sydney finished top 4 in 2014 and 2015 yet managed to get Heeney in 2014 (widely regarded at the time as the best player in that draft). Its like the eagles getting Walsh in 2018, would be pretty helpful hey ?
2. Sydney got Mills the following year, this is why the academies are so unfair, father sons I get but this is ridiculous. So top 4, 2 years in a row and access to the best players, so essentially there getting what a bottom team gets 2 years in a row whilst being in the top 4, im only at my second point but can you see how different west coast is. What did the eagles get whilst in the top 4 ? Donuts?
3. Lance Franklin (still playing by the way) Sydney got him whilst the cola was still around. West coast didn't have cola and had to pay through our teeth for Kelly. What did sydney pay hawthorn for Franklin? Oh thats right nothing.
4. Blakey another academy selection only 22 played every game this year and averages 20 disposals per game playing off half back, is above average in meters gained
5. Campbell another academy selection top 10 talent. Early days but played 16 games and looks good.

Overall 4 top 10 rated juniors the swans got which west coast would never get.
The Franklin to Kelly deal is stark with the cola playing a big role in landing Franklin. Eagles never had this luxury. I could give more examples but point is Sydney are way more privileged than we are because the afl has a vested interest in their success and imo this is a very poor comparison.

You said yourself we are behind now with the Kelly trade. Whilst Sydney got gift wrapped 4 top 10 arguably some top 5 juniors, we got 0 top 10 picks, whilst Sydney gave up nothing for Franklin we lost pick 14, pick 13 and pick 27 (give or take may not be exact). How in the blue hell is this comparable !!!

 

[Westcoast88]

Yes you did, and you called it ‘Long Term Thinking’

I haven’t threatened you with removal from this forum.

Just don’t agree with your believe or any of your forward thinking. In all posts your just plain wrong, or can’t possibly foresee what happens in 2025 or beyond!

No I never said finish last 5 years running. Never said to tank either. Never accused you of threatening to have me kicked off the board, that was someone else. But gee you sure twist my words a lot, you exaggerate what I say to strengthen your point because you know deep down it's not as strong as you would like. It's a cheap way to try to win an argument. If I said all these things than have the balls to quote me, oh but you can't because it wasn't what was said was it .

 

[Goroyals22]

I’m going to use Sydney as an example

2016 - Lost a GF to the Bulldogs
2017 - Defeated Essendon easily in the elimination final then list the semi-final to Geelong
2018 - Narrowly lost (1 point) to GWS in an elimination final
2019 - Finished 15th with 8W/14L
2020 - Finished 16th with 5W/12L

That’s not dissimilar to our run from 2018-2022.

In 2021 they returned to the finals, losing in the first week and now they’re playing in a GF. At the end of 2020, how many people do you think were predicting that

Now Sydney’s list at the end of 2020 was in better shape than ours is right now - This is the 26 named for tomorrow’s GF and when they arrived at Sydney - emergencies have been bolded

2009 - Reid (Pick 38)
2010 - Parker (Pick 40)
2012 - Cunningham (RD)
2013 - Franklin (FA), Rampe (RD), Lloyd (RD)
2014 - Heeney (Pick 18*)
2015 - Mills (Pick 3*)
2016 - Florent (Pick 11), Hayward (Pick 21), Papley (RD)
2017 - T McCartin (Pick 33), Fox (RD)
2018 - Clarke (Trade), Blakey (Pick 10*), Rowbottom (Pick 25), McLean (SSP), McInerney (Pick 44)

2019 - Stephens (5), Gould (Pick 26), Warner (39)
2020 - Hickey (Trade), McDonald (Pick 4), Campbell (Pick 5*), Gulden (Pick 32*)
2021 - P McCartin (SSP)

* Academy selections

They’ve been aided by academy selections but have also made some astute mid draft and rookie selections

We’re behind because we effectively traded out of the 2019 and 2020 drafts to bring Kelly in and our drafting in the years before then was a mixed bag

The 2021 draft crop however has some promise and Ryan, Sheed, Kelly, Allen, Duggan, Darling, Cole, and Barrass should still be around to play good football. Whilst some of Waterman, O’Neill, Jones, Petruccelle, both Edwards, SPS, Williams and Jamieson may come good

We have possibly 4 picks under 30 in this years draft and some more high picks in 2023 and 2024. By which time we should have salary cap room to chase free agents or trade targets

A lot can happen in 3 years (good and bad) so to categorically state we won’t be making finals is unduly pessimistic. I’m not saying it’s a certainty either, but a return to finals by 2025 is not out of the question

Hell if any of that might come good group except Luke Edwards is still on our list in 2025 we are going to have some really bad years…. All trash.

 

[Keys]

Threatening to have someone be kicked off the forum just for disagreeing is pretty low.

Never accused you of threatening to have me kicked off the board, that was someone else.

Well you kinda did

 

[ThePuma #9]

No I never said finish last 5 years running. Never said to tank either. Never accused you of threatening to have me kicked off the board, that was someone else. But gee you sure twist my words a lot, you exaggerate what I say to strengthen your point because you know deep down it's not as strong as you would like. It's a cheap way to try to win an argument. If I said all these things than have the balls to quote me, oh but you can't because it wasn't what was said was it .

I quoted you, ad nauseam so feel free to respond when you have the time.

 

[Westcoast88]

I quoted you, ad nauseam so feel free to respond when you have the time.

Again never said these things, why not try to debate with facts instead of made up bs

 

[Westcoast88]

Well you kinda did

I absolutely killed it in my Sydney comparison didnt i, no comeback ay detective keys. I never said that person threatened me either but i think you know this hoping to deflect away from the sydney comparison. Should have picked a different side what can I say

 

[Forward Press]

 

[ThePuma #9]

Again never said these things, why not try to debate with facts instead of made up bs

I quoted you perfectly and presented very clear questions in relation to your comments. The fact that you have ignored those questions and chosen to side step instead of answering any of them shows everyone that when you don't have a thoughtful or intelligent response to your dribble you deflect and run all the while accusing others of not having the balls to quote you directly.


You are hilarious. Please keep it up.

 

[Westcoast88]

Hell if any of that might come good group except Luke Edwards is still on our list in 2025 we are going to have some really bad years…. All trash.

Well said but according to Keys we are similar to Sydney a few years ago so maybe we should expect to be challenging soon for a flag. Not sure how we make up for all the lost kelly picks and zero academy selections, no cola allowance but lets just conveniently forget all that.

 

[Westcoast88]

I quoted you perfectly and presented very clear questions in relation to your comments. The fact that you have side stepped instead on answering any of them shows them shows everyone that when you don't have a thoughtful response you deflect and run all the while accusing others of not quoting you directly.

You are hilarious. Please keep it up.

Show me the quotes prove it ? Cmon don't be shy where is your evidence ? Cmon there's 2 of you 1 of me.

 

[ThePuma #9]

Show me the quotes prove it ? Cmon don't be shy where is your evidence ? Cmon there's 2 of you 1 of me.

My pleasure, i'll put it all here for you to follow my questions precisely.



I posted this.....

This year was a train wreck but there were some real similarities with another year that was a train wreck for us, a year we only won 4 games and got the spoon.

In 2010

Darren Glass played 8 games
Sam Butler 5 games
Luke Shuey 6 games
Daniel Kerr 4 games
Chris Masten 13 games
Shannon Hurn 15 games
Mitch Brown 13 games
Brad Shepperd 13 games
Mark Nicoski 6 games
Quinten Lynch 14 games
Ashley Hansen 2 games
Adam Selwood 16 games

Not to mention Naitanui, Glass and JK played with injuries all year and guys like Dean Cox and Masto had no pre season at all.

We struggled with injury all year and was never able to get a decent side on the park.

I’m not claiming we will bounce back for a top 4 result in 2023 but consistency and injuries always make things seem worse than it really is.

Funny enough we went into the 2010 draft with 4, 26, 29 and we know how that turned out.

I see some similarities between that year and this one and IF we manage to stay fit I am pretty confident we will not be bottom 4.

To which you quoted me directly with this.

I have already detailed why this rebuild is different to past ones and you have conveniently ommitted critical details. The Kelly trade, dearth of top 10's in last 10 year's, holding onto to majority of players from golden years. We don't have the young players we did back then, most outside observers have us locked into a 5 year rebuild, only on here the feeling is different. Naitainui and Kennedy and Sheppherd were excellent picks/trades. We had Shuey Gaff darling all fairly high picks. We don't have anywhere near that here? What sad delusion . D barrett had come out today and said other than o Allen he sees no difference in west coast next year. You might say it's only Barrett but get outside this bubble and you will find most reputable commentators have us short odds for the spoon and on a 5 year long rebuild. But keep telling yourself otherwise

My reply was as follows

Firstly, i don't even know who you are but welcome to the page.

Secondly, i didn't quote you directly or indirectly and my observations were merely a differing opinion on the conversation at the time in regards to our finishing position NEXT year.

Lastly, at no point have i made any predictions about the length of our rebuild, the circumstances surrounding the depth of our list or anything else you rattled on about. I merely stated i see similarities between our last bad year and the one we just currently had and IF you had looked more closely at what i was saying it had something to do with the availability and health of the list.


Since you're new around here allow me to give you a modicum of advice. You are no more an expert than anyone else here and everyone is entitled to an opinion, no one on this page is afraid of differing views or constructive criticism but just try and play nicely with others even if you don't agree with them or you won't last long.


Like my pappy says, Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and most are full of s**t.

This was your response where you seem to take it all quite personal.

Firstly. Not knowing who I am lol. Is that meant to be offensive.
Secondly never said you did quote me ?
Thirdly no issue with you expressing your view, same as I express mine
Fourthly I am allowed to disagree with you, disagreements will happen from time to time on a forum. I disagree with your point of seeing similarities to 2011, I merely expressed a different point of view sorry if I offended you. I felt my post was quite tame to be honest.

Fiftly I never said I was an expert. It seems to me your the one who can't handle an opposing view threatening that I wont be here for long if I keep it up. People will disagree with you in life mate, geez get over it i disagreed with you. I didnt abuse you. You seem to have taken this very personally. Id hate to see how you handle disagreement in the real world.

To which i have further clarified my last post, that i don't know what you're on about, i've then quoted you and then asked you to clarify some of your comments in relation to my post which you quoted and responded to directly.

"I have already detailed why this rebuild is different to past ones and you have conveniently ommitted critical details."

You're speaking directly to me and claim i have conveniently omitted critical details. I don't know who you are and haven't engaged you in any form of conversation so i'm a little confused how you could've already pointed anything out to me if we haven't spoken. This is why i mentioned i don't know who you are.


I welcome you to the board and you reply

"Not knowing who I am lol. Is that meant to be offensive."

Take a deep breath.



You proceed to inform me of these omitted details which apparently include but i'm certain are not limited to.....

"The Kelly trade"

"dearth of top 10's in last 10 year's"

"holding onto to majority of players from golden years"

How is any of this relevant to what i said? All i mentioned is there were similarities between our last poor year where we won 4 games and this year where we won 2. Those similarities were an injury plagued playing list and lack of consistency which is what i made comment of.


Now you're explaining to me that "most outside observers have us locked into a 5 year rebuild"

Where did i mention anything about our rebuild or the length of it?


After all of this you make the passing comment "what a sad delusion".

Why am i sadly deluded exactly?


I recommend the way you speak to people on here will go a long way to how you are perceived since you seem to be a little combative after commenting i am sadly deluded and there is no issue with disagreeing with someone but to do it with some respect to which you reply

"It seems to me your the one who can't handle an opposing view threatening that I wont be here for long if I keep it up."

"geez get over it i disagreed with you"

"You seem to have taken this very personally"

I find you a little obtuse but it seems to me you're the one that's taking things personally, i'd prefer to know what you are exactly disagreeing with me over since it's not quite clear. Are you disagreeing with me that we had injuries in 2010 similar to this year and if we were fit this year we may have won more games or that if we are fit next year we won't win more games?




Just so we are clear i'll summerize for you. I merely explained i don't know who you are, i'm perplexed why you are quoting me and giving me a lecture pertaining to my post, which you obviously had issue with when none of the above is relevant to my post.

I stated there are similarities between 2010 and this year due to injuries and lack of consistency, nothing more and that as a result of injuries and lack of fit players we struggled to win games. I never said it was the only reason we struggled this year, or that a rebuild wasn't required, or we don't have depth or quality young players, or anything in regards to the length of our rebuild and i challenge you to go back to my post and show me where i did.

I don't think many on this board wouldn't believe that we wouldn't have won more games IF the entire playing squad was fit and i hardly think it's a stretch to assume IF we have a fully fit team next year that we will win more games and it's possible we don't finish bottom 4.

Don't forget to pay close attention to the word IF. I even made it capitols on that post too as if to emphasize to those who may miss the point of the post all together, which i'm going to point out.........you did.

Since you want to be antagonizing and take pot shots at people for not quoting you i decided to do so exactly as you requested.


Take your time in responding.

 

[Keys]

I absolutely killed it in my Sydney comparison didnt i, no comeback ay detective keys. I never said that person threatened me either but i think you know this hoping to deflect away from the sydney comparison. Should have picked a different side what can I say

The Sydney comparison was to show that :

1) Sydney had a drop off in 2019/20 not dissimilar to ours in 2021/22
2) Two years after finishing 16th they are playing off in a GF, something very few people would have predicted at the end of the 2020 season
3) I acknowledged our list is not as strong as Sydney’s was along with the reasons why.
4) Because of that I’m not predicting a return to finals in 2023 like Sydney did in 2021 but rather a return to finals in 2025 is a possibility as things can turn sooner than expected

Now, just so we’re clear I’m not saying West Coast will make finals in 2025, only that it’s in the realms of possibility

As for the bolded, I literally quoted a post of yours doing exactly that

Threatening to have someone be kicked off the forum just for disagreeing is pretty low.

 

[Keys]

Well said but according to Keys we are similar to Sydney a few years ago so maybe we should expect to be challenging soon for a flag. Not sure how we make up for all the lost kelly picks and zero academy selections, no cola allowance but lets just conveniently forget all that.

For someone who’s pretty big on calling people out for attributing comments to you that you didn’t make you sure do like to misrepresent peoples comments

I’ve not said we’ll soon be challenging for a flag only that a return to finals is a possibility in 3 years time

Anyway, we aren’t going to agree so I’m happy to leave it at that

 

[Westcoast88]

I quoted you perfectly and presented very clear questions in relation to your comments. The fact that you have ignored those questions and chosen to side step instead of answering any of them shows everyone that when you don't have a thoughtful or intelligent response to your dribble you deflect and run all the while accusing others of not having the balls to quote you directly.


You are hilarious. Please keep it up.

Ive mistaken you here for chasing flags so I apologise. It's difficult fighting battles on 3 fronts you, keys and chasing flags. Happy to address your other posts tomorrow if you like but easier one on one unless you prefer your numbers advantage. I just don't have time to address 3 people at once.

 

[ThePuma #9]

Ive mistaken you here for chasing flags so I apologise. It's difficult fighting battles on 3 fronts you, keys and chasing flags. Happy to address your other posts tomorrow if you like but easier one on one unless you prefer your numbers advantage. I just don't have time to address 3 people at once.

No need, apology accepted.

Clearly you are passionate about the club, i'm happy to let things lie and move on but just take it a little easy mate. You catch more bees with honey and all that.

 

[Westcoast88]

The Sydney comparison was to show that :

1) Sydney had a drop off in 2019/20 not dissimilar to ours in 2021/22
2) Two years after finishing 16th they are playing off in a GF, something very few people would have predicted at the end of the 2020 season
3) I acknowledged our list is not as strong as Sydney’s was along with the reasons why.
4) Because of that I’m not predicting a return to finals in 2023 like Sydney did in 2021 but rather a return to finals in 2025 is a possibility as things can turn sooner than expected

Now, just so we’re clear I’m not saying West Coast will make finals in 2025, only that it’s in the realms of possibility

As for the bolded, I literally quoted a post of yours doing exactly that

Fair. my post was not me saying you threatened me but thats some of the comments I've had directed at me,

The Sydney comparison was to show that :

1) Sydney had a drop off in 2019/20 not dissimilar to ours in 2021/22
2) Two years after finishing 16th they are playing off in a GF, something very few people would have predicted at the end of the 2020 season
3) I acknowledged our list is not as strong as Sydney’s was along with the reasons why.
4) Because of that I’m not predicting a return to finals in 2023 like Sydney did in 2021 but rather a return to finals in 2025 is a possibility as things can turn sooner than expected

Now, just so we’re clear I’m not saying West Coast will make finals in 2025, only that it’s in the realms of possibility

As for the bolded, I literally quoted a post of yours doing exactly that

Most of your new post is fair enough, I wont argue with that. I cannot find my original post where I said that last quote, I believe I did say it to you but not in the context of accusing you of saying it.

 

[Keys]

Fair. my post was not me saying you threatened me but thats some of the comments I've had directed at me,

Most of your new post is fair enough, I wont argue with that. I cannot find my original post where I said that last quote, I believe I did say it to you but not in the context of accusing you of saying it.

To be fair, you didn’t accuse me of threatening you. The posts of yours I quoted were responses of yours to chasing flags

I was merely being a smart arse pointing out that you did indeed accuse him of threatening you

Hopefully, this completes the circular argument

 

[Westcoast88]

For someone who’s pretty big on calling people out for attributing comments to you that you didn’t make you sure do like to misrepresent peoples comments

I’ve not said we’ll soon be challenging for a flag only that a return to finals is a possibility in 3 years time

Anyway, we aren’t going to agree so I’m happy to leave it at that

I never said that you stated we would be challenging for a flag only that by using Sydney as a comparison an inference could be made here but that's different to me saying you said xxxx. So i haven't misquoted you. I merely extrapolated from your comparison what potentially we could expect if we were similar to Sydney.

 

[Lazzas]

Well said but according to Keys we are similar to Sydney a few years ago so maybe we should expect to be challenging soon for a flag. Not sure how we make up for all the lost kelly picks and zero academy selections, no cola allowance but lets just conveniently forget all that.

With this

The Swans’ secret sauce: youth developed through its academy

Callum Mills, Isaac Heeney, Nick Blakey and Errol Gulden are all products of the Swans Academy, which remains controversial among some Melburnians.

www.afr.com

 

[Grahame]

Yawn.

 

[squashface]

I need both of you to kiss and move on

 

[mattyc75]

Time to unsubscribe to this thread,its pointless now

On SM-G973F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Having this recurring nightmare that Simmo’s take away from the GF will be to continue backing in the older players.