Forget pride, lets bottom out

[blues76]

I dont know who we're all kidding...we currently have the 2nd/3rd?? worst list in the comp...the lost picks have killed us but we need to bottom out in order to get a few guns to the club...
Our so-called up and coming youngsters have done nothing and and its the old brigade of Kouta, Stevo, Campo + a few others that are carrying the team...
I'll easily take the spoon this year if it means we get pick 1 & 2...thoughts???

 

[Stan.]

I reckon its the way to go for sure, i hope my mob can win no more than 5 and have plenty of fighting losses along the way.

Ps i think were entrenched on the bottom you will have to settle for second last.

 

[stokesy]

I'm giving us one more chance.

If we get Livingston back there is no reason why we can't play Whitnall forward all day and kick a winning score. Our last chance is Adelaide, we can beat them and I think the boys know it.

One more chance to have a good season, we are only 3 games out of the 8, if we won 2 - 3 games on the trot we are back in the hunt (sounds easy in theory). If we get flogged this week, that's it, hope for the picks.

The season isn't quite over yet. If we beat Adelaide where still alive...

 

[Waite_30]

Remember what happened last time we played them?

 

[FootyFan33]

Remember what happened last time we played them?

yep we went from 3-7 to 10-12 they started a 7-5 run
Fev belted em and Campo cut em up in that delicious last quarter

FF

 

[Blue Boyz]

yep we went from 3-7 to 10-12 they started a 7-5 run
Fev belted em and Campo cut em up in that delicious last quarter

FF

Unfortunately that was then, and this is now.

 

[Funkalicous]

If we don't bottom out we'll become the next Sydney or Kangeroos. A woeful list kept afloat by 2 or 3 stars. I don't want that to happen. The best thing for Carlton's future is to turn over the list again. This time we won't be giving older players second chances, but giving young players their first chance...

 

[Kooley]

Put it this way we are not going anywhere with the crap we have at the moment. Only a fool would suggest we could play finals football with our current list.

 

[TheBlueblood]

Current form suggests they have already bottomed out id be ********ed off if they continue to be flogged for the rest of the year though.

Doesnt take a superstar to lay a hard tackle or supply a sheperd once in a while though

 

[Thrawn]

Pride, tradition, luck and smart recruiting/drafting > tanking for a few kids who may or may not turn out to be good players.

Honestly, Richmond's climb wasn't because they got low picks - it's because they are confident, have an even list and a good coach. And getting low picks doesn't mean you'll win a premiership or two in the future.

People say that all these low picks give give you success, but where is the proof? When has it happened?

Stuff bottoming out - pride and the winning feeling are far more importantly, and historically it shows that these qualities are far more important than a couple of kids who *may* turn out to be stars. Getting #1 doesn't mean that kid will be the best player, let alone a star.

Luck, smart drafting/trading is the key. If we're crap enough to bottom out, fine. But it's intolerable to lose on purpose in the hope that he kids we're going to get turn out to be superstars and will deliever us flags (and yes, it IS a gamble pining your future hopes on a coupleof high picks then going "she'll be right" whether you like it or not).

 

[Da Bull]

I concur Thrawn.

 

[Lukesta63]

Well said Thrawn!!! I don't think people realise how lucky Richmond are that their picks ,Deledio and Tambling ,have come along so quickly.
Look at Adam Cooney,he was the No 1 draft pick by a mile in his year,and he had an ordinary year at an unsuccessful club.Had he been drafted by a mediocre club ,he probably would've struggled to get a game!

 

[bibi01]

if you bottom out and get some early picks, players still take time to develop.

what happens in the meantime IF players such a walker, thornton, stevens (for example) get sick of being at the botom, sick of losing and want to leave for a club that is a realistic chance to win a flag.

we lose players with 4/5 years or more experience and we are back where we started

we have a good crop of kids at the momemnt who are just going to take time to develop, things can turn around very quickly with confidence and momentum, which is what we are really lacking. add in a bit of luck with injuries/suspension and off you go.

 

[Thrawn]

I don't think people realise how lucky Richmond are that their picks ,Deledio and Tambling ,have come along so quickly.

But it's not them doing all the work, they are not the reason why Richmond is going so well. They have got Coughlan back, Richo is in form, Brown is in form - hell, most of their team is in form. But the return of Gaspar back to his AA form, that's what made them so strong IMO in that their defense is rock solid.

You look at our team and who is in form? No one, expect Koutoufides. Think for a second people, and imagine where we would be now be if all our senior players were in form. We'd be in the eight. In fact, any team who has their top tier players in form would be in the eight. Stevens, Whitnall, Campo, Fevola - neither are in the form as their Richmond counterparts, if they were, we'd be sititng nicely too (because they are good players when on song, no doubt).

But what seperates the good teams from the bad is when your top tier players aren't in form. You rely on your 2nd tier players to stand up - you will find that the top teams have good 2nd tier players and perform well in times of crisis. We don't. If the 3rd tier players (the kids) step up, it's a bonus - some of them upgrade tiers if consistent and good enough. So far, you have a look at our kids and you will only see Thronto nadn Waite that are playing good footy and are being consistent. The rest need to have look at.

No one in the short term can say that picks #1 and #3 will be better players than picks #16 and #32. No amount of beep tests and vertical leaps can judge talent ... fair amount of luck comesi nto it when you think about it. Pick the kids that have done well in thier respective competitions, then see how these competitions match up against each other in terms of quality. Geelong didn't need to bottom out so why sould we? You'llk find that with the majority of good players playing today, most of them were picked under #10 in the draft. Even more proof why "playing for picks" is a rubbish method and will never give you a premiership cup.

 

[Silvagnis]

If you look at the fixture, I think we'll end up with picks 1 and 2 as the pies have at least 4 more wins and Essendon will win at least another 3 games with Hird back soon.Brisbane,Hawthorn,Port and Bulldogs are just too good or talented to only win 5.5 games.
Shannon Hurn and Mitchell Clarke would be exactly what we are looking for and Wisbey rates them. And I'm willing to go with his predictions.
Shannon Hurn
Mitchell Clarke

 

[Snoozer]

If you look at the fixture, I think we'll end up with picks 1 and 2 as the pies have at least 4 more wins and Essendon will win at least another 3 games with Hird back soon.Brisbane,Hawthorn,Port and Bulldogs are just too good or talented to only win 5.5 games.
Shannon Hurn and Mitchell Clarke would be exactly what we are looking for and Wisbey rates them. And I'm willing to go with his predictions.
Shannon Hurn
Mitchell Clarke

Let's hope that we pick up Mitchell Clarke and he turns out to be a long lost brother of David and Tim. That'd be another rousing success by the recruiting staff to add to their ever growing list of winners.

 

[itsintheblood]

Pride, tradition, luck and smart recruiting/drafting > tanking for a few kids who may or may not turn out to be good players.

Honestly, Richmond's climb wasn't because they got low picks - it's because they are confident, have an even list and a good coach. And getting low picks doesn't mean you'll win a premiership or two in the future.

People say that all these low picks give give you success, but where is the proof? When has it happened?

Stuff bottoming out - pride and the winning feeling are far more importantly, and historically it shows that these qualities are far more important than a couple of kids who *may* turn out to be stars. Getting #1 doesn't mean that kid will be the best player, let alone a star.

Luck, smart drafting/trading is the key. If we're crap enough to bottom out, fine. But it's intolerable to lose on purpose in the hope that he kids we're going to get turn out to be superstars and will deliever us flags (and yes, it IS a gamble pining your future hopes on a coupleof high picks then going "she'll be right" whether you like it or not).

I agree with that 100% Thrawn. Our improvement this year hasnt come thanks to the kids we recruited from draft picks. Deledio's been good but isnt expected to peak for another year or two and the same for Tambling/meyer/pattison. Our senior squad hasnt changed that much. It's the older players and 2nd &3rd year players who are playing well under a coach who has a decent idea. Frawley turned our good players into crap with his coaching methods and posession game plan. Im talking the likes of kellaway, tuck, brown, richo, tivendale, pettifer, hall and i could only think what ottens could have been under wallace.

What you guys need is a lowish finish but some smart trading to boot.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

i gotta be honest here, we never got over losing Hamill.
Whether it was egos, or a how bick is your d*ck contest with the former pres. His presence/physicality allowed Carlton to go a: through the middle and b: give confidence to the bigger forwards around him to go for the ball with a clear run.
At the moment plan a is to go straight up the guts, by quarter time the onballers who have no protection at all, bar Kouta, are pretty much fed up and start the boundary parade.
These onballers are good players, in a good side, but with no protection, it becomes apparent early that the game strategy won't work. So much of the delivery into the forward line is wide.
The two big ones forward don't show nearly enough presence for their size, and as such the smaller crumbing forwards don't play off them.
Look at West Coast, Lynch averages 2 goals a game, Gardiner 1, Cox 1 and their presence is obvious and the onballers know that they will generally have clear passage,

 

[bibi01]

I agree with that 100% Thrawn. Our improvement this year hasnt come thanks to the kids we recruited from draft picks. Deledio's been good but isnt expected to peak for another year or two and the same for Tambling/meyer/pattison. Our senior squad hasnt changed that much. It's the older players and 2nd &3rd year players who are playing well under a coach who has a decent idea. Frawley turned our good players into crap with his coaching methods and posession game plan. Im talking the likes of kellaway, tuck, brown, richo, tivendale, pettifer, hall and i could only think what ottens could have been under wallace.

What you guys need is a lowish finish but some smart trading to boot.

we need:
-another key defender
-an experienced tough as nails in and under midfielder
-develop our current kids let them play 7-8 games this year, get a full pre-season under their belt and be ready for 2006

this will then allow us to free up players from our backline
-who are more suited to running/attacking roles (houla/lappin)
-who are not playing on opponents 1/2 a foot taller than them (teague)
-which in turn will give us greater scope to rotate more players through the midfield

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Completely agree Bibi, the other thing ALL great teams have had is a settled back 6.
And this is not happening,
a backline that chops and changes every week is never goint to lead to a settled side.
Bigger bodies are needed down back, and whether that is a curse for a young side, and it seems evident here, needs to be rectified in the gym and with solid recruiting.

 

[Kooley]

we have a good crop of kids at the momemnt who are just going to take time to develop, things can turn around very quickly with confidence and .

Walker, Betts, Russell and Hartlett. Who else?

 

[bibi01]

Walker, Betts, Russell and Hartlett. Who else?

blackwell, bentick

 

[Silvagnis]

Projects: Raso and O'Hailpins.

 

[itsintheblood]

Projects: Raso and O'Hailpins.

Forget about the irishmen. You are in NO position to be experimenting. You need seasoned players. Experimenting is for the teams who have the luxury to be able to do it within their lists. Carlton doesnt. Get rid of them immediately and get some good youngsters in there.

 

[blues76]

cant believe im agreeing with a richmond supporter...yes we need seasoned players... our youngsters have shown nothing so far...ok give them time but for how long?? walks/bentick have shown nothing, eddie glimpes but lack of game time, and our 2 picks from last year + blackwell havent even played...we'll bottom out for sure, though not through choice...