Forward Press Burning Sides Out?

[Ant85]

I was driving home tonight, had the radio tuned to 3AW when I heard Mark McVeigh say after the loss to Richmond that their forward press had slacked off the last few weeks.

The intensity was running down, and players are worn out, not to add their mounting injury list.

Essendon have been the best at implementing our press this season out of all the other sides (West Coast 2nd).

But, they might have gone in too hard, and it appears to have worn them out by round 9.

This is in contrast to us who have tailored off our manic forward press early in the season, as MM experiments with fewer rotations and has us playing at a few gears below full intensity (the stats back this up).

This suggests a few things:

a) Depth: a forward press alone might get you into the 8, but the intensity required will burn your side out before you know it, as Essendon is discovering. Without the depth to rotate players in and out of your 22, the team will quickly fatigue.

b) List management: you can't maintain a full intensity forward press for a full season. List management is crucial to having your side peak at the right time.

c) Talent: anyone can implement a forward press. You don't need the best players in the comp to do it, you just need everyone to play their role effectively, and apply pressure. It's the teams with the talent, class and skills that can absorb the pressure, give it back, play the contested footy, and execute disposal efficiently that still come out on top.

We are still the side that ticks all the above, a, b and c. Geelong is probably the only other side I can think of that also ticks all the above boxes, my only doubt with them is their ability to manage their aging list over such a long season. But we're not exactly immune to injuries either.

MM said he'll continue his experiments for the next month, so don't be in shock if we drop another game.

Tony Shaw said we're flirting with form by experimenting and disrespecting opponents, and may backfire.

We'll wait and see.

 

[Premier Pies]

I too have been thinking that the forward press is taking it's toll on clubs that are trying to emulate our gameplan. Bombers are a perfect example of showing major wear and tear, not to mention mental fatigue. Injuries aside which have hurt the Bombers a fair bit, their levels of intensity have clearly taken a nose dive. Although the last quarter against the Tigers last night was pretty special.

Hopefully it is all going to plan for Mick as he knows first hand how hard it is for this forward press to be implemented and ultimately successful in a season. After all, it was a few years in the making for this current Pies side to apply the forward press consistently good enough to win the flag. Therefore clubs that are trying to implement the same forward press strategy are unlikely to achieve the ultimate success in their first season.

"Tony Shaw said we're flirting with form by experimenting and disrespecting opponents, and may backfire."

I love it how people like Tony Shaw continuosly think they know better how the side should be played. Malthouse has the runs on the board and as a member I trust him implicitly to give us our best shot at back to back.

I understand Uncle Tony needs to have his say and probably be controversial due to his need to appear unbiased as well as it being his job in the media. Seriously though, he must be taking the piss to suggest we are disrespecting opponents by managing lists, rotating players, etc...

 

[vjknight]

essendon had the significant issues of sacking knights, installing old boys hird & thompson, and using that to win back the love from their huge following (largely lost - remember that presidents lunch?).

the coaching changes only went part of the way. their list was considered poor (based on 2010) and with minimal changes to that list, hirds 1st job was to continue the growth in members. what better way than to WIN. they performed very well pre-season with the press, then ramped that up in the H&A season to date. theyve achieved their aim and got the cash flowing in from members etc, but now the cost of all that initial effort is maybe starting to tell.

their membership WILL forgive them if they fail for the remainder of the year. as mentioned the press is a learned skill, and not just a skill, but a whole way of training & discipline. its achieved it aim for the bombers this year, but now the bombers will go back to the drawing board, revisit their list and off season, and go around again.

the press has another victim - but in a new version.

 

[mwalker]

"Tony Shaw said we're flirting with form by experimenting and disrespecting opponents, and may backfire."

I love it how people like Tony Shaw continuosly think they know better how the side should be played.

I understand Uncle Tony needs to have his say and probably be controversial due to his need to appear unbiased as well as it being his job in the media.

That all but guarentees us a flag this year. Everything T. Shaw says turns out to be the exact opposite of what eventuates.

Love him as a player and former Premiership Captain.

 

[FredNerk69]

"Tony Shaw said we're flirting with form by experimenting and disrespecting opponents, and may backfire."

That comment in itself guarantees that we are doing the right thing.

Good honest tough player Tony. But the coaching and modern day football brain of an Auskick coach.

I feel sorry for him sometimes he just needs to keep it simple and he might get away with most of his comments.

 

[HeavyPop]

I remember reading something about when Hird got to Essendon, he found their fitness levels to be horrible and that it would take something like 2 years for them to catch up to the rest of the competition.

 

[rose jam]

It took the Pies about 2/3 of last season to really get the whole kit of the press right, including the rotation side of it and getting the right balance of players in it.
With reduced interchange no doubt there is a huge effort to reduce the early season workload so we play with high energy late in the year.
We've got over 12 months jump on the rest of these fools trying to learn what we already know

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I said during the off season (can't remember if it was our board or the main one), that 80% of our gameplan is fitness.

It's taken MANY years of Arizona trips to get the fitness level required to play what we played in the second half of last year.

With a late start to the pre-season, I expect our second half to be far better than the first half, because despite being 7-1, I don't think we're playing very well at all.

This may sound fuinny, but when it comes to finals, I'd be more concerned if I was a Geelong supporter. No injuries, playing as well as they possibly could and barely scraping by most games without some help from the men in white. What will happen if/when they get some injuries and a bit of drop off in form?

 

[genaz]

Our form kind of peaked at the right time last year but I don't think it was by design. This year is different. We started at the top and kind of have to engineer the peak. It's an interesting situation.

 

[Frankie23]

One major difference is Essendon have come from a complete contrast of the press (attacking, free-flowing football) and over ONE pre-season employed it and are expecting it to work. There is no doubt that they will 'fatigue' as the season goes on.

I remember Tarkyn Lockyer talking about it last year, and saying it had been a huge work in progress since 2008. Pretty much it took us over 2 years to get the gameplan and fitness levels right. This is where our advantage is, the fact that we have mastered the press whilst other teams are still finding their way.mI can;t wait for round 15 when we start ramping it up!

 

[Ant85]

I remember Tarkyn Lockyer talking about it last year, and saying it had been a huge work in progress since 2008. Pretty much it took us over 2 years to get the gameplan and fitness levels right. This is where our advantage is, the fact that we have mastered the press whilst other teams are still finding their way.mI can;t wait for round 15 when we start ramping it up!

And I think this is the danger of emulating a premier's plans.

It's not so much emulating a plan, but evolving a strategy that aids with success.

We didn't copy St.Kilda, we developed it further.

At the time, most other sides were trying to copy Geelong's style of play to beat the St.Kilda press, while we opted to strengthen St.Kilda's press to strangle Geelong.

If sides are merely going to copy what we do, it's going to take 2 years minimum, as you said, to get it right. By then no doubt the press will be outdated as something new would have come in.

Who is to implement the new strategy to beat the press? That remains to be seen.

Interesting to see how WCE go against us this Sunday, definitely one of the better sides to play the press.

 

[jaxter600]

I am no expert by any means, but have been wondering if the early tinkering with structures and game plan is part of Collingwood attempting to develop the "next system". Haven't seen us implement the press except for yesterday's 4th quarter in any significant fashion. I would also imagine that one N Buckley is probably doing some overtime on how to beat the press.

 

[shawthing09]

I said during the off season (can't remember if it was our board or the main one), that 80% of our gameplan is fitness.

It's taken MANY years of Arizona trips to get the fitness level required to play what we played in the second half of last year.

With a late start to the pre-season, I expect our second half to be far better than the first half, because despite being 7-1, I don't think we're playing very well at all.

This may sound fuinny, but when it comes to finals, I'd be more concerned if I was a Geelong supporter. No injuries, playing as well as they possibly could and barely scraping by most games without some help from the men in white. What will happen if/when they get some injuries and a bit of drop off in form?

This is actually all pretty spot on. The trips to Arizona have clearly helped our players build up the fitness base to be able to play this game plan. There has been a lot of work across all lines to get everything ready.

This year we have had the late start. A number of injury / fitness concerns. On top of that there has been the change in the game due to the sub rule.

I think it's pretty clear to see there is a fair bit being held back. The drop in rotations for a month. We have defended much higher up the park (less press which means less ground needs to be covered) Hopefully with a closer to full strenth playing list and the right modfied workload we will be playing our best football when it needs to be played.

On Essendon taking Jobe Watson and Hocking out of their midfield would be a bit like taking Pendles and Ball from ours. They were always going to find it tough, fatigue or no fatigue. I laughed when Essendon fans talked up their coaching recruits but by and large they are playing a much better brand of football. When that happens some of the middle rung players can look a lot better which is what has happened here. I still can't see Paddy Ryder playing at the levels he did early this year, consistantly, and that is really when they looked their most threatening

 

[daics cousin]

The forward press is very difficult to maintain that's why a lot of teams are burning out trying it.

The Pies have been to Arizona for 5 years (half a decade) now,and our fitness should a lot superior to other teams ,although the new substitute rule has compounded things,so what do we do ?

Bucks will introduce a new dimension into recruiting next year,and one of his criteria is to get players who have the genreal attributes but also must have very good kicking skills.

The players will be drilled accordingly until we develop a team of buckley clones......end result ? Sublime kicking skills helps players out of congested situations,helps players deliver the ball to others with precision,and ultimately just maybe gets them to kick more goals than points.

So while the other teams are trying to work out the forward press or some new flooding structure we have the players and the know how on how to beat any of the those structures,just by having a team with great kicking skills.

Bucks has already started to revolutionise the game as an assistant don't you think?Who started the idea of Forward pressure ? Mick MALTHOUSE?

I don't think so.Who was our forward coach last year? Mick MALTHOUSE?

 

[Zahki]

Who started the idea of Forward pressure ? Mick MALTHOUSE?

Uh, yes? Until proven otherwise the head coach gets the credit for the way they're playing, not the assistants. Were you saying sack the assistants before 2010? Malthouse has copped a right thwacking over the years, when he gets results then he should get the credit, simple as that. Insinuating that Buckley is running the show behind the scenes is incredibly disrespectful in my view.

Also you're getting way overexcited about Buckleys recruiting criteria, all he said is that he'll be looking at kids with competitiveness, good character and good skills, it's not a stretch to say those are some of the criteria already in place for the recruiters. It's not like when Buckley takes over we're going to recruit 22 didaks with laser boots.

 

[Kirby]

Mick has already stated that the current tactics and game plan are his. This statement of his has not been challenged.

 

[Markfs]

you dont use the forward press until it matters. It only gives the opposition a chance to build strategies against it...

 

[Jedi01]

Not really adding much to this thread, but according to Crackers, Swan was heard to say at an early last quarter center bounce against Adelaide,

"They are out on their feet, we can win by 5 goals"

 

[Fluro Boots]

Mick has already stated that the current tactics and game plan are his. This statement of his has not been challenged.

The collingwood version is, no doubt. To me the evelution of game plans is interesting and something not covered or analised well enough by the mdeia. NFL has some great shows showing what happened and why alhtough they are a more structured game than aussie rules. Most AFL Journos are too busy muckraking to do any real anlysis.

My take on it is that Sydney were the first real process orientated side that i was old enough to appreciate before that it seemed that most sides played a similar style and it came down to form or personnel. I think the eagles were the better side from a pure footballing aspect but sydney had great success against them and other sides by their commitment to the game plan of creating a lot of stoppages and slowing the game down and playing to thier players strengths.

Geelong game plan of 2007-10 in my view originated as a way to beat the stoppage based game employed by sydney. It was centred around daring use of handball and run and required great skills and made great use of their creative types like ablett, chapman and steve johnson.

Hawthorn went down a different path in 08 and stole a march on a lot of sides with clarkos cluster. Aiming to outnumber their opponents around the ball and create direct turnovers and counter attack from there. zones had long been employed by some teams for the kick in but most reverted to man on man after that kick. Hawthorn are the first i remember to employ a full time zone defence all over the ground. St kilda in 09 bettered Hawthorns zone and seemed to employ it further up the ground and applied massive pressure in their own forward line, Malthouse further improved this method to what we now know as the forward press.

So all in all, to me most game plans derive in one way or another from previous premiers. You essentially have two options. Do something different to counter a game plan and attack it's weaknesses or use the same game plan and do it better.

With more sides apparently playing closer to the boundary line like collingwood has been for years the next big change may be some game plan that again focusses on owning the corridor, or the next change may be instigated by some other rule change. It's an interesting topic and i look forward to seeing it evolve further

 

[stui magpie]

^

Good summary, I tend to agree.

I look forward to the first team to try the flying V as a way to go straight up the corridor.