Gas?

[evo]

I pray to Allah that Weavers wrong.12 more weeks of Gaspar will kill me.

Play Mcguane there,Joel,Schulz,hell even Cleve Hughes-play anyone.Just not Gaspar.

It's not just about Ottens 4 goals.It was so much more.He's panicked,slow,disposal is attrocious.Even when he does get a handball off successfully it's to a bloke stationary 5 metres away.Hospital punts.


Arggghhh.

 

[santa claws]

Like Riewoldt and Hughes.

and very lucky to have either. according to miller they were taking hislop this yr and casserly last yr at those picks i guess we can thank our lucky stars those 2 slipped. the fact of the matter remains in the main we have overlooked highly rated talls and solid onballers for skinny outside hbf types.
an example this yr was pick 26 edwards instead of eric mckenzie.a kid who can play anywhere down the spine but is a genuine kpd and would be gaspars replacement in a couple of yrs.

 

[Weaver]

Let's get this into prospective weaver,gaspar is washed up has been for 3 or 4 years.

Yep.

Thursfield is our future so he needs all the experience time out on the field he can get.

Maybe, hopefully, probably. He is also a guy coming off a big knee reco. How many blokes play the best footy in their first season back?

Stop thinking negatively about our youngsters and start thinking for the future.I'd rather take a risk on a kid than a hack like gaspar who's only interest is if he can squeeze out another year or two of his contract.

[/QUOTE]

If the kids are any good enough they should be easily able to force their way past a hack, no? Didn't see Raines taking much time to send Chaffey off to retirement. Patty Bowden saw off Andy Kellaway pretty quick smart. Polak only needs to lace his boots to have Ray Hall playing ressies.

If Tivendale is as rubbish is everyone says then surely Casserley and Oakley-Nicholls can claim a spot on merit?

If the kids are any good they will be quickly into the team because so many of our guys are rubbish.

That said it is no good simply equating good = young. Being young doesn't make someone a better player.

For so many it was enough that Limbach was young. Forget that he is rubbish. They wanted him in the team because of his birth certificate - not anything he did on a footy field.

The VFL is crap. The standard is laughable (compared to AFL). If a guy can't show something at that level then he doesn't deserve to be gifted AFL games simply because he doesn't shave yet.

Giving out games like Laura Bingle gives out her phone number doesn't build the determination in a young player. Make them earn it - it ain't hard - it certainly ain't hard at Richmond.

These kids want a game - well let them prove it. Do something to warrant senior selection.

 

[tigerdan]

Mooney kicks 4 goals on Polak and there is chatter about Polak making an encouraging debut.

Ottens kicks 4 on Gaspar and there are calls to sack Gaspar and outright condemnation of him.

I think sometimes people see what they want too. We want Polak to be a success and have done well - so that is what we see. We want Gaspar replaced and are so used to him being a scapegoat - so that is what we see.

I would argue that with Gaspar we know exactly what we will get. A scragger who will be of less worth to the team with the new 'push in the back' rule. A guy whose disposal and 'run round in circles' routine is a liability to the team. What's that saying about insanity being defined by doing the same thing over and over, and expecting something different to happen (though you could say being a Tiger supporter fits that description too!)

I liken the Polak situation to when we drafted Wigney. Prior to that we had the impeccable Bulluss and Leys holding down the key spots. Yes, I am omiting Turner but we also have a 2x AA key defender in Bowden in the team to fill one of the spots.

Given that I just had my car serviced, here is an analogy.

You decide that you are going to build, from scratch, the coolest, fastest most awesome car on the road. But you can't do it all at once so you start with bits and pieces. You get a new engine, some new brakes, even fix up the bodywork so the chicks will think you are hot.

But something's not quite right. The gearbox is still stuffed. You look at the Gaspar model and think "well it's cactus, but should get me another year. Used to be good though - I guess I should have sold it when I had the chance". You look over on the shelf and there is a new 'polak' model gearbox. It's shiny and new. But you just can't remember if the car magazine said it was made in Taiwan or at Rolls Royce. You think to yourself "well that Gaspar one is stuffed. I will keep it as spare parts. I'll drop in the Polak one and see how it goes. Might take a little while to break in, but who knows, it might be just what I need."

Well that's how I see it anyway.

 

[Croat tiger]

Yep.



Maybe, hopefully, probably. He is also a guy coming off a big knee reco. How many blokes play the best footy in their first season back?

If the kids are any good enough they should be easily able to force their way past a hack, no? Didn't see Raines taking much time to send Chaffey off to retirement. Patty Bowden saw off Andy Kellaway pretty quick smart. Polak only needs to lace his boots to have Ray Hall playing ressies.

If Tivendale is as rubbish is everyone says then surely Casserley and Oakley-Nicholls can claim a spot on merit?

If the kids are any good they will be quickly into the team because so many of our guys are rubbish.

That said it is no good simply equating good = young. Being young doesn't make someone a better player.

For so many it was enough that Limbach was young. Forget that he is rubbish. They wanted him in the team because of his birth certificate - not anything he did on a footy field.

The VFL is crap. The standard is laughable (compared to AFL). If a guy can't show something at that level then he doesn't deserve to be gifted AFL games simply because he doesn't shave yet.

Giving out games like Laura Bingle gives out her phone number doesn't build the determination in a young player. Make them earn it - it ain't hard - it certainly ain't hard at Richmond.

These kids want a game - well let them prove it. Do something to warrant senior selection.[/QUOTE]

Explain to me why Thursfield isn't deservng of senior selection and i'll shut up,was his last game that bad that he doesn't warrant senior selection?.

 

[evo]

Weaver,your responses to Tigerboyz are all from battles past.

Answer honestly-(I assume you watch the odd Coburg game or training praccy matches.)-Could McGuane(and he's only an example) have done any worse than Gaspar on Sunday?

 

[sante]

Explain to why Thursfield isn't deservng of senior selection and i'll shut up,was his last game that bad that he doesn't warrant senior selection?.

He is recovering from a knee reco.

and very lucky to have either. according to miller they were taking hislop this yr and casserly last yr at those picks i guess we can thank our lucky stars those 2 slipped. the fact of the matter remains in the main we have overlooked highly rated talls and solid onballers for skinny outside hbf types.
an example this yr was pick 26 edwards instead of eric mckenzie.a kid who can play anywhere down the spine but is a genuine kpd and would be gaspars replacement in a couple of yrs.

Sadly you're 100% right.

No offence to JON/Edwards etc. But why do we continue drafting the same player, yes we are going to be exciting in a few years but thats IF all these flashy players make the grade. Why do we never draft the ordinary footballer who will consistently perform and is hard at it (N. Jones/J. Lewis)? We have Foley + Polo, but thats it. Tuck + Cogs aren't very good with their skills.

I am behind Terry Wallace 100% but I would like to see some different players drafted.

 

[Croat tiger]

He is recovering from a knee reco.




Sadly you 100% right.

No offence to JON/Edwards etc. But why do we continue drafting the same player, yes we are going to be exciting in a few years but thats IF all these flashy players make the grade. Why do we never draft the ordinary footballer who will consistently perform and is hard at it (N. Jones/J. Lewis)? We have Foley + Polo, but thats it. Tuck + Cogs aren't very good with their skills.

I am behind Terry Wallace 100% but I would like to see some different players drafted.

He'll be ready by Round 1 I'd say sante.

 

[tugga]

Explain to me why Thursfield isn't deservng of senior selection and i'll shut up,was his last game that bad that he doesn't warrant senior selection?.

He's coming off an injury where the ligaments in his knee were twisted and mangled beyond comprehension. Surely that's good enough reason TB????
What's the point in playing him in a meaningless NAB cup game where bugger all is riding on it?
Give him an extra month to play a quarter here and a quarter there and build up.
i know we all barrack for Richmond and that want success yesterday, but one more knee reco and that's probably it for good for Will, with a grand total of 6 games under his belt.

 

[evo]

Agree Tugga,no need to rush Thursty.

 

[Croat tiger]

He's coming off an injury where the ligaments in his knee were twisted and mangled beyond comprehension. Surely that's good enough reason TB????
What's the point in playing him in a meaningless NAB cup game where bugger all is riding on it?
Give him an extra month to play a quarter here and a quarter there and build up.
i know we all barrack for Richmond and that want success yesterday, but one more knee reco and that's probably it for good for Will, with a grand total of 6 games under his belt.

I was never talking about the nab practice match cup I was talking about the first round against the blues.

 

[Weaver]

Weaver,your responses to Tigerboyz are all from battles past.

Answer honestly-(I assume you watch the odd Coburg game or training praccy matches.)-Could McGuane(and he's only an example) have done any worse than Gaspar on Sunday?

I saw almost every Coburg game last year.

Could McGuane have done worse? Absolutely.

Does that mean Gaspar is good? No.

Gaspar is going to concede 4 goals to Ottens. McGuane could easily concede 8. So too Hughes. Neither has the physical strength, experience or defensive smarts YET.

Too many people project to what a player MIGHT be in the FUTURE. But here and now ... Gaspar is a better defender than any of the kids we had available. He is still rubbish - but less rubbish than a kid like McGuane who doesn't know when to stay with his man and when to leave - and who gets caught 20m from his opponent 10 times a game.

 

[Weaver]

I was never talking about the nab practice match cup I was talking about the first round against the blues.

If has earnt the position on merit then give him a go. He will have a few practice matches. Otherwise why not start him at Coburg. If he can't handle those FFs then he has problems.

If he can prove himself a match for Adam Hartlett in round 1 against the Bullants then pick him for Richmond ... on form, on performance, on merit ... not on the basis of grass-is-greener wishful thinking that anything must be better than Gaspar.

If Gaspar is as bad as everyone says ... and Wallace has a proven record of picking kids ... and Wallace won't pick a kid instead of Gaspar ... well maybe, just maybe these kids aren't quite as good NOW as some of the posters who have never (or rarely) seen them play would have you believe?

 

[sante]

Knowing our luck Thursty will do another knee

 

[Croat tiger]

I saw almost every Coburg game last year.

Could McGuane have done worse? Absolutely.

Does that mean Gaspar is good? No.

Gaspar is going to concede 4 goals to Ottens. McGuane could easily concede 8. So too Hughes. Neither has the physical strength, experience or defensive smarts YET.

Too many people project to what a player MIGHT be in the FUTURE. But here and now ... Gaspar is a better defender than any of the kids we had available. He is still rubbish - but less rubbish than a kid like McGuane who doesn't know when to stay with his man and when to leave - and who gets caught 20m from his opponent 10 times a game.

Well this is why I like thursfield he sticks close to his man and is very quick
and agile whereas gaspar just trys to punch from behind these days and he's always going to get pinged for a free kick because he puts his hands into his opponents back to punch 9 out of 10 times and that's not going to work for us.

 

[tugga]

Well this is why I like thursfield he sticks close to his man and is very quick
and agile whereas gaspar just trys to punch from behind these days and he's always going to get pinged for a free kick because he puts his hands into his opponents back to punch 9 out of 10 times and that's not going to work for us.

yeah but you don't want him to be another Zac Dawson.
There's merit in giving a kid a go but there's no merit in crucifying him.
There's room for both Thursfield and Gaspar in the team - THIS YEAR. Gaspar will do the dirty work. Let Thursfield develop first and then throw him in. It's one thing to do a job on Riewoldt, but then backing up the next week on fevola and then the week after on Lloyd and then the week after that on Hall and then Lynch...you get the picture. It's a long season.
Let Gaspar be the fall guy this year. it's what we're paying him for. Plenty of time for Thursfield to learn the ropes.
Australian cricket selectors blood their youngsters in the middle order coming in at 5 or 6 before they move up to 3 and 4. Seems to have worked well. Same logic going on here.

 

[Weaver]

Well this is why I like thursfield he sticks close to his man and is very quick
and agile

He was quick and agile before his back injury in 05 and his knee injury in 06, we haven't seen him play a game since.

I agree that he is a great prospect but I don't think you pencil him in round 1 to play against the Coleman Medalist on the basis that he played 1 good half of football in March last year.

 

[evo]

I saw almost every Coburg game last year.

Could McGuane have done worse? Absolutely.

Does that mean Gaspar is good? No.

Gaspar is going to concede 4 goals to Ottens. McGuane could easily concede 8. So too Hughes. Neither has the physical strength, experience or defensive smarts YET.

Too many people project to what a player MIGHT be in the FUTURE. But here and now ... Gaspar is a better defender than any of the kids we had available. He is still rubbish - but less rubbish than a kid like McGuane who doesn't know when to stay with his man and when to leave - and who gets caught 20m from his opponent 10 times a game.

I'm not talking about what McGuane might be in future,I'm talking about what he is right now.You have a point about Mcguane not knowing when to stay close last year.But this begs another question why wasn't Mcguane persisted with at full back all last season(and specifically over the off season) rather than chopped and changed around between forward and back.Terry knew this was going to be a problem come round 1.It's not as if Gaspar wasn't doing this last season too.And we knew Thursty was a fair way away still.

Physical strength,what a laugh,every time Gaspar had any contact with Ottens he gave a free away.Physical strength is great if you can use it without infringing and god forbid keeping your feet.Once ottens went off the ground Gaspar was put on N.Ablett and he came into the game.

I don't think McGuane would've done any worse on the weekend.I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Weaver]

There's merit in giving a kid a go but there's no merit in crucifying him.
There's room for both Thursfield and Gaspar in the team - THIS YEAR. Gaspar will do the dirty work. Let Thursfield develop first and then throw him in. It's one thing to do a job on Riewoldt, but then backing up the next week on fevola and then the week after on Lloyd and then the week after that on Hall and then Lynch...you get the picture. It's a long season.
Let Gaspar be the fall guy this year. it's what we're paying him for.

Exactly right.

Round 1 this year Gaspar, Polak and Bowden are the tall defenders.

Hopefully in the first 2-3 weeks of the season Moore, McGuane or Thursfield are in form at Coburg and worthy of senior selection.

One or other of them sits in the back pocket alongside Gaspar in round 4.

In round 4 Gaspar has some goals kicked on him and Thursfield plays FB in the second half. Hopefully he does well.

Over the next 3-4 weeks there is a little battle between Gaspar and Thursfield (or McGuane or Moore or whoever).

By round 11 Thursfield is FB and Gaspar is 'injured' or dropped or benched.

Thursfield puts a solid 11 games together to finish the season.

We go into the 2007 draft comfortable 'retiring' Gaspar because we have found someone who has proven themselves a good option to develop as a replacement.

If Gaspar is rubbish and Thursfield, McGuane, Moore, Reiwoldt, Schulz, JON or whoever are half as good as people believe they are ... then they should be able to elbow Gaspar out of the way.

But it is for them to do it ... not just be handed the position.

And here is something to think about. If we thought that any of our kids was good enough for fullback THIS YEAR do you really think we would have pursued Thornton, Polak and been linked to J.Cloke, Perry and every other FB who wasn't nailed down?

Moore is rubbish. McGuane needs another year at Coburg. Thursfield is going to need some time to rebuild his confidence after the knee injury. JON simply needs to get on the field consistantly. Reiwoldt is too slow for FB.

This year it is Polak, Gaspar, Hall and J.Bowden with Schulz in the mix - and us praying for a kid to force their way into the team.

 

[Croat tiger]

He was quick and agile before his back injury in 05 and his knee injury in 06, we haven't seen him play a game since.

I agree that he is a great prospect but I don't think you pencil him in round 1 to play against the Coleman Medalist on the basis that he played 1 good half of football in March last year.

Great test for him and he's a hell of lot heavier than he was so I think he could hold his ground against fev but that's just my opinion.

 

[Weaver]

I'm not talking about what McGuane might be in future,I'm talking about what he is right now.

Right now McGuane is not senior standard. He is still a raw development prospects whose footy smarts make Richo look like a rocket scientest.

You have a point about Mcguane not knowing when to stay close last year.But this begs another question why wasn't Mcguane persisted with at full back all last season(and specifically over the off season) rather than chopped and changed around between forward and back.

He played mostly fullback. His forays forward were largely in response to the ineptness that was Hughes and Limbach in the key forward spots for Coburg.

Also the fact that Robertson, Silvester and Jorgenson were all better key defenders as their selections in the VFL North v South trial game would suggest.

Terry knew this was going to be a problem come round 1.It's not as if Gaspar wasn't doing this last season too.And we knew Thursty was a fair way away still.

Which is why we recruited Polak and Kingsley and targetted an experienced key defender. The club has long known that Hughes and McGuane were not ready for senior company in 07.

Hughes barely merited selection in the Coburg side by season's end and started the final on the bench - only getting a run in the second half when the game was lost.

Physical strength,what a laugh,every time Gaspar had any contact with Ottens he gave a free away.Physical strength is great if you can use it without infringing and god forbid keeping your feet.Once ottens went off the ground Gaspar was put on N.Ablett and he came into the game.

But Gaspar would still have McGuane and Hughes covered.

I don't think McGuane would've done any worse on the weekend.I guess we'll just have to disagree.

McGuane is a goer and would have been more determined. But Gaspar will be FB in round 1 and is up to McGuane to force his way past.

 

[evo]

Look,fair enough Weaver.I take your point.I'm not one who's a 'just play kids for for kids sake'

But Gasper is that woeful not just at negating his oponent but also when the ball hits the ground and then by some miracle when he gets a possession of his own,his disposal.

On Sunday,save that one time he managed to get a fist in legally and punch it over the boundary he was beaten every single time.Just running up behind Ottens and shouting your mother wears army boots would've been as effective,there would've at minimum been 3 or 4 less free kicks-we were just lucky Ottens didn't kick straighter.And it was like that alot of last season too.

Of course Mcguane is still raw(and no rocket scientist)but I fail to see the problem lobbing him in the deep end-Thursty was- with a bit of success,and at a much earlier age.Either way Magaue is either gone at the end of this season or he's our full back or'3rd back'.Apart from the Coburg games he played forward,later in the season-they've been playing in the forward line in off season praccy matches.Why? One thing we have is plenty of budding forwards.

Anyway,we'll revisit this in 2 or 3 rounds into the season_ i'm pretty confident Gaspar will still be floundering.And I hope to see at least Maguane playing in the back half at Coburg come round 1.

 

[Weaver]

Apart from the Coburg games he played forward,later in the season-they've been playing in the forward line in off season praccy matches.Why? One thing we have is plenty of budding forwards.

Going a bit OT here ... but I actually think McGaune is a better forward than back (just we are more desparate for a backman). Was a junior CHF. Had Limbach covered - did more in a quarter than Limbach could manage in a month. I also far prefer Hughes away from goal as the hit-up Tarrant type.

It wouldn't be outrageous to see McGuane as the FF understudy with Schulz plonked in the back-half. Reiwoldt? God knows what they plan to do with him ... 3rd forward Aaron Hamill style?

HF: Meyer - Hughes - Pat Bowden type
FF: Reiwoldt - McGuane - Raines

????

(love to see Raines in the Ablett / Chapman / Davey small forward role for at least a month)

I am so keen to see what they do with Schulz this year. He gets very little love it seems from the match committee. No Tambling-type play him at all costs stuff for the Sarge. Interesting to see if he is the plans or not.

 

[evo]

Reiwoldt seems to me the only one of the 3 capable of playing half back and half forward.Obviously this is a couple of years away.

I can't say the same for Hughes or Schulz.

Hughes looks to me the consumate FF-fast lead,set shot.(not so good contested.)

Therefore if we're looking post Richo and we're assuming all 3 will make it,

Forward line looks like

HFettifer Schulz Maguane/Reiwoldt(other plays back)
F: Meyer Hughes Browny(when he retires Tambling type(Raines isn't such a bad idea)