News Geelong's Terrible Example

[CFC16]

Man i was on the ball what are good article.We need to trade for Dangerfield will give us the grunt.Do it man thank Russell for his good work but he can go back home where he can start a family.It's nothing but a win for both parties both a talent footballers just different type of players.I say if we can get picks for Carazzoo,Hampson and Walker in the first or second round pick do it. Carazzoo is currency to several clubs unlike Scotland who probably wouldn't be who is one of our best.

The more drafting of players you don't have the better the club will hold for decades. I still say if their is a elite footballer like Ben Cousins who can still give something for a couple of years take him if it costs us nothing but spare change and near last pick also.I would also have my eye on Mitch Thorp progress for a rookie spot.

Trades for draft picks, and expertly chosen rookies. There are no short cuts once you are in the middle of the ladder, trying to rise to the top. What are wise move.

Carlton mistake was to get their early picks and give them away for a later pick while drafting some player who used to be good.It's backfired so many times.We tend to give away too much of our 2nd round selections.

I had a look at Melbourne list and see they have so many round 1 and 2 selections.They got plenty of midfields and some good talls also. We were bottom for 3 years and don't have as many as them.

We had our chance to get Dangerfield in the 07 draft, but we traded pick 3

 

[CFC16]

This is where trades can work for us we traded the man Fevola and got a early pick and another top 10 pick in Henderson.We can do the same with a Ruckmen and possibly a few players who have currency for a 1st or second round at worst.

and we traded pick 11

 

[Sin City]

and we traded pick 11

For a player who addressed a specific need.

 

[mediumsizered]

They only got Mooney cos their captain walked out on em and they picked up Drum after winning 2 flags from 3 GFs.

Not sure why we've trading for supposed list deficiencies when we're no where near a flag tilt.
Time will tell, and hopefully the brainstrust at the club are proven right.

We have traded for "supposed list deficiencies", but except for Judd (I don't count Hadley's trade because it was for a pick in the mid '50s), the players we have traded for are young enough to be in their prime when we are having a tilt at the flag.

 

[CFC16]

For a player who addressed a specific need.

for a player who has had constant injuries at Melbourne and now Carlton have inherited the problems

 

[Sin City]

for a player who has had constant injuries at Melbourne and now Carlton have inherited the problems

For one season. Heard the exact same rubbish about Warnock last year. Seems a few people think they can tell the future. Guess what champ, it takes more than one season to tell if a trade was a success or not.

 

[Malifice]

Gee, that really is disgraceful drafting. Three 1st round picks, all spuds. That would be unheard of anywhere I'd imagine.

Richmond and Hawthorn have made some shockers.

 

[Styxx]

Fremantle gave their no 1 draft pick ( Luke Hodge was used for it) for Trent Croad.....then gave Trent Croad back for a much lower draft pick.

Croad and Hodge played in a Premiership, Fremantle is stupid.


As far as drafting goes, Carlton has NEVER semmed to be the greatest minds when drafting.

James Cook says hi.

 

[Dramoth]

Luke Livingston - Pick 4, 2000 Draft - Delisted 2006, 46 games

Trent Sporn - Pick 11, 2000 Draft - Delisted 2006, 50 games

Simon Wiggins - Pick 15, 2000 Draft - 116 games, ave 11.6/season

Justin Davies - Pick 39, 2001 Draft - Delisted 2006, 41 games

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit....

Luke was recruited as a forward and, after Pagan came in, was converted to a defender... he was, according to Denis the menace, going to be our replacement for SoS, but was a bit young and so Denis got in his boy Mick (I'm a merc to get 300 games) Martyn to be our gorilla fullback for a couple of years while Luke learnt how to be a FB.

Didnt work because for most of the 1 year that Mick was at the club, he had to play on the gorilla full forwards and was smashed from pillar to post and then was ignored for pretty much the rest of his career by Pagan.

There are surprisingly a number of cases like this over the first couple of years at the club. A player with a limited number of games under his belt was rated as crap by Pagan because he made mistakes while playing in the few minutes per game that Pagan gave him and then spent the next 3 or 4 weeks out at the Ants.

Paul Bower, almost everyone here rated him as crap because Pagan didnt rate him and never gave him enough game time and set back his development by a couple of years. Now, since Ratts came in and gave him a shedload of game time, everyone rates him.

Jordan Russell, once again, hardly anyone rated him because they only ever saw him for a few minutes until he made a clanger and got dragged by Pagan. Ratts started playing him consistently and suddenly everyone loves him.

Josh Kennedy... same story except we traded him to the west coke e-girls as a developing CHF as part of the Judd deal. Now a couple of years later, we get supporters moaning about how we shouldnt have given him away because he is exactly what we need right now.

It is the lack of accountable recruiting during the period 1998-2002 combined with the draft penalties in 2002/02 that means that we have virtually no players in the 26-28 year old range.

 

[Selective Retention]

Mooney -2000
Ottens - 2005
Drum - 2009

Judd - 2007
Hadley- 2007
Warnock- 2008
Mclean - 2009

Spot the difference?

White, Murphy, Grgic, Haynes, Loats.

We picked up quite a few recycled players while we were building. Obviously didn't pay the same kind of price for them as you guys did. We kept all our first rounders except for 00 and 04. Corey 99, Bartel 01, Mackie 02, Tenace 03, Varcoe 05, Selwood 06, Taylor 07, Brown 08, Menzel 09.

The big difference from my perspective would be that Geelong got rolled in a prelim by a kick by the lions in 04, and the semi by the eventual premiers Sydney in 05. Carlton while making finals last year were still a long way back from pushing the challengers to the brink like that.

 

[Silvagnis]

Man i was on the ball what are good article.We need to trade for Dangerfield will give us the grunt.Do it man thank Russell for his good work but he can go back home where he can start a family.It's nothing but a win for both parties both a talent footballers just different type of players.I say if we can get picks for Carazzoo,Hampson and Walker in the first or second round pick do it. Carazzoo is currency to several clubs unlike Scotland who probably wouldn't be who is one of our best.

Where does this shit come from?

Do you think Adelaide are giving away players who don't want to leave?

We tend to give away too much of our 2nd round selections

We didn't have any options but to trade picks 20 and 27 as the part of the Judd and Fevola trades.

A 22 year old Warnock was worth pick 24 and the later picks we swapped.

I had a look at Melbourne list and see they have so many round 1 and 2 selections.They got plenty of midfields and some good talls also. We were bottom for 3 years and don't have as many as them.

I was just thinking that we needed more midfielders.

They've got some tall defenders, yet the only quality ruckman and KPF prospect on Melbourne's list is the 27 year old Jamar and and the 19 year old Watts.

In that regard, they're not better off than Carlton who have Kreuzer, Henderson, Hampson, Warnock and Jacobs.

I suspect one will be traded to fill a need this year.

We had our chance to get Dangerfield in the 07 draft, but we traded pick 3

Relevance?

We weren't going to draft Dangerfield if we didn't sign Judd.

Why don't you change your username to CollingwoodFootballClub and be done with the bullshit?

I can't recall reading a positive and even handed post which has come off your keyboard.

Mooney -2000
Ottens - 2005
Drum - 2009

Judd - 2007
Hadley- 2007
Warnock- 2008
Mclean - 2009

Spot the difference?

You forgot Henderson who might be our Mooney...

 

[true blue19]

The difference is Geelong build a team through draft picks and the only recycled player they traded for was Ottens in 04.

Until Carlton stop trading away draft picks they ain't going nowhere.

here are all the trade by geelong under bomber

99
-colbert+ 53+67 for 15+17+47+ mooney
-mansfield for 31
00
- steinfort for 44
- 42 for kingsley
- 11 for murphy
- 27+45+57 for white
01
- bizzell for 17+41
-murphy for 23
-55 for grgic
02
-burns for finn
03
20 for haynes+42
clarke for loats
04
moloney for 12
12+16 for ottens
05
chamber for 35
07
playfair for 44
callan for 60
gardiner + king for a unused pick
08
prismall for 39
09
mumford for 28
49 for drum

 

[starchamber]

for a player who has had constant injuries at Melbourne and now Carlton have inherited the problems

The great Robert Walls was on One Week at a Time this week and said his mind boggles on how we traded our first pick to get Brock Mclean and to get Chris Johnson.He couldn't believe what we did.

 

[as0l0]

Fremantle is stupid.

They sure is...or do i mean, it sure are...

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Luke Livingston - Pick 4, 2000 Draft - Delisted 2006, 46 games

Trent Sporn - Pick 11, 2000 Draft - Delisted 2006, 50 games

Simon Wiggins - Pick 15, 2000 Draft - 116 games, ave 11.6/season

Justin Davies - Pick 39, 2001 Draft - Delisted 2006, 41 games

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit....

Gee, that really is disgraceful drafting. Three 1st round picks, all spuds. That would be unheard of anywhere I'd imagine.

This is such a hindsight call. Is it disgraceful drafting, disgraceful development or just plain bad luck?

Did we reach for all of those players? Were they rated pre-draft? Was there any surprise expressed when we took them?

As far as I recall, there was nothing outrageous about those picks at the time, and all players were worthy on exposed junior form.

It is only in hindsight when a player fails that we go back to the scene of the crime and blame the recruiting staff. They don't have crystal balls. They can guess at but can not know with 100% certainty about skills progression, physical development etc.

I believe the odds should have been for 1-2 of these players making it long term, and we are extremely unlucky it unfolded the way it did.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The great Robert Walls was on One Week at a Time this week and said his mind boggles on how we traded our first pick to get Brock Mclean and to get Chris Johnson.He couldn't believe what we did.

I dare say the great Robert Walls is prone to being Hindsight Harry when he wants to be. Did he condemn this trade during trade week last year?

What's Johnson got to do with anything. A PSD pickup in his second season with us and completely unrelated to the McLean trade. Besides, he is actually starting to show something.

 

[40yearBLUE]

This is such a hindsight call. Is it disgraceful drafting, disgraceful development or just plain bad luck?

Did we reach for all of those players? Were they rated pre-draft? Was there any surprise expressed when we took them?

As far as I recall, there was nothing outrageous about those picks at the time, and all players were worthy on exposed junior form.

It is only in hindsight when a player fails that we go back to the scene of the crime and blame the recruiting staff. They don't have crystal balls. They can guess at but can not know with 100% certainty about skills progression, physical development etc.

I believe the odds should have been for 1-2 of these players making it long term, and we are extremely unlucky it unfolded the way it did.

Good Call. I only chimed in with my Richmond comparison to show other clubs have similar misses, but as you say, most if not all are hindsight calls. Occasionally a club pulls a left field selection that raises eyebrows at the time, but often there is sound logic behind the reasoning, regardless of whether the player fulfilled the potential on which they were drafted.

 

[Bluebear]

Not sure who wrote this for The Age, but it's a good, measured article.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...geelongs-terrible-example-20100804-11asd.html

Good read. Pretty much sums up how I feel.
A reality check

A successful team needs senior players with experience and hard bodies, as well as a generation of elite talents who grow up together and take ownership of the club.

For those who think Melbourne has gone ahead of us or are catching up, have a look at who their best players are most weeks. Yes, one or two of the kids get in, but mostly the older guys, all veterans of multiple finals over the last decade (Green, Bruce, MacDonald etc) have lifted.

We have very few in that age bracket and with that experience.

Hence:
When is our "window" open

 

[Bluebear]

The great Robert Walls was on One Week at a Time this week and said his mind boggles on how we traded our first pick to get Brock Mclean and to get Chris Johnson.He couldn't believe what we did.

I've also heard him say that there's no point arguing with the umpire, he'll never change his mind.
Watch the 4th Q of the 1970 GF and have a look at which Carlton player tries to do exactly this with the goal umpire.

He's allowed to change his mind as he goes, and in 12 months time if Brock is going well I'm sure Walls will say "Well I thought they needed some hardness and I'm glad they got this guy to the club).

 

[Bell Ringer]

This is such a hindsight call. Is it disgraceful drafting, disgraceful development or just plain bad luck?

Did we reach for all of those players? Were they rated pre-draft? Was there any surprise expressed when we took them?

As far as I recall, there was nothing outrageous about those picks at the time, and all players were worthy on exposed junior form.

It is only in hindsight when a player fails that we go back to the scene of the crime and blame the recruiting staff. They don't have crystal balls. They can guess at but can not know with 100% certainty about skills progression, physical development etc.

I believe the odds should have been for 1-2 of these players making it long term, and we are extremely unlucky it unfolded the way it did.

My post wasn't saying we should have picked player X instead of player Y, it was simply to highlight that it's not just the salary cap penalties that have stopped us from reaching the top 4.

As you say, even if just 2 of those 4 had become legit 150-200 gamers we'd have an extra couple of strong-bodied, experienced footballers helping out the young guys on gameday.

I'm not condemning the trading of picks for experienced players around that time either, cos we were a legit chance of a flag, but God help me, we could have done better than O'Reilly and Mansfield surely??

 

[Bell Ringer]

Luke was recruited as a forward and, after Pagan came in, was converted to a defender...

Don't worry, I still can't believe that Livo was never tried up forward for the Blues. While I don't think he could have been Carey, I reckon his career might have panned out much better under a different coach, and at a stretch it could even still be alive.

 

[Bell Ringer]

We have traded for "supposed list deficiencies", but except for Judd (I don't count Hadley's trade because it was for a pick in the mid '50s), the players we have traded for are young enough to be in their prime when we are having a tilt at the flag.

Not potting McLean or Warnock and def won't judge the trades based on 1 season like most have on BF, but I would have preferred to see us reach a SF/PF in 2011-2012 with what we have and then traded for top-up/experienced players to help us make the next step, similar to Geelong.

However I can also understand the club's thinking. As you say, both players will hopefully be around for a good 6-7 years and could be vital parts of a premiership contender.

Maybe the Hawks winning one a bit ahead of their 'development cycle' prompted us to have give it an early shot?

 

[Big Red is back]

Not sure who wrote this for The Age, but it's a good, measured article.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...geelongs-terrible-example-20100804-11asd.html

Phew what a relief with no game plan and our performances going backwards it looks like based on that article we are going to win numeros flags.

LOL

 

[Big Red is back]

Don't worry, I still can't believe that Livo was never tried up forward for the Blues. While I don't think he could have been Carey, I reckon his career might have panned out much better under a different coach, and at a stretch it could even still be alive.

Mate he was friggin hopeless at VFL level and he was tried fwd and back and he was undersized and to slow.

 

[starchamber]

I dare say the great Robert Walls is prone to being Hindsight Harry when he wants to be. Did he condemn this trade during trade week last year?

What's Johnson got to do with anything. A PSD pickup in his second season with us and completely unrelated to the McLean trade. Besides, he is actually starting to show something.

Yeah he got dropped this week probably played his last game.I prefer we kept Pfeiffer.