Gibbo's cooked

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I'm a firm believer in trying to find a solution to a problem, instead of just getting all emotional (either way) about the subject.

Okay, so many have identified the problem here, but why don't we get some actual discussion going about how to fix the solution (both short and long term). rather than resorting to bickering and having child-like tantrums.

For me, Brand is the key here. When he plays, to me, Gibbo looks far more assured of his role within the full team defense. Obviously Gibson is slower than previously, as would happen with just about all professional athletes; however, his skills are still very good. Playing Gibbo in 'blocks of games' may be a good way of both keeping him involved to lend guidance to those less experienced blokes whilst providing opportunities to others. This would also be a way of managing his body to the end of the season.
In all I still think he certainly still has a role to play for us this year and there would be not much benefit in removing him from the side for the the remainder of the season
 
89Adopter said:
I'll ask the question again about where were the howls for respect when Osbourne spent most of his last season in the VFL and when Sewell was overlooked for the finals campaign back in 2014? People didn't get misty eyed, at that stage it was accepted that Langford had gone past him.

Respect for an individual's feelings shouldn't supersede the greater needs of the team. Playing a player who is out of form when they could very well be a liability when our season is not necessarily over, for mine, is utterly absurd.

If the best arguments for not dropping him are that it would be unfair because of his past glories - then he definitely shouldn't be playing.
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He is the best option for us going forward.
 
TheFourPillars said:
He is the best option for us going forward.
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How? How is an out of form player the best option for us? Particularly when Brand and Cousins could come into the side and inject more youth. Especially when Cousins is practically beating the door down demanding selection.

There is absolutely no benefit in keeping players around who are out of form. Case in point - the cricket last summer. We get absolutely thrashed in two tests because the selectors refuse to deviate from tried and tested players. They make wholesale changes, pick young and in form players and win the next four tests convincingly and come close to winning a series in India.

Another case in point - the NSW State of Origin team year in and year out picks players based on reputation and not on form. They've subsequently lost 10 of the last 11 series. No good comes from playing players who are out of form.
 

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89Adopter said:
How? How is an out of form player the best option for us? Particularly when Brand and Cousins could come into the side and inject more youth. Especially when Cousins is practically beating the door down demanding selection.

There is absolutely no benefit in keeping players around who are out of form. Case in point - the cricket last summer. We get absolutely thrashed in two tests because the selectors refuse to deviate from tried and tested players. They make wholesale changes, pick young and in form players and win the next four tests convincingly and come close to winning a series in India.

Another case in point - the NSW State of Origin team year in and year out picks players based on reputation and not on form. They've subsequently lost 10 of the last 11 series. No good comes from playing players who are out of form.
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Gibbo is a defender, Cousins is not I will get back to you on the rest later
 
TheFourPillars said:
Gibbo is a defender, Cousins is not I will get back to you on the rest later
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I'm not saying Cousins is a like for like replacement, Brand can take Gibson's spot. Back 6 would consist of Frawley, Hardwick, Stratton, Howe, Brand and Burton with Hodge, Burgoyne and Cousins able to float back at times (has been doing this at Box Hill.

Howe might be unpolished, but on Sunday he showed much more endeavour. Far more crucial that we get games into Brand, Howe and Hardwick than spare another player's feelings.
 
89Adopter said:
I'm not saying Cousins is a like for like replacement, Brand can take Gibson's spot. Back 6 would consist of Frawley, Hardwick, Stratton, Howe, Brand and Burton with Hodge, Burgoyne and Cousins able to float back at times (has been doing this at Box Hill.

Howe might be unpolished, but on Sunday he showed much more endeavour. Far more crucial that we get games into Brand, Howe and Hardwick than spare another player's feelings.
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In fairness Gibbo did show endeavour, but unfortunately for the Hawks it does little when he's constantly being found out for a lack of speed, agility and leaping ability these days. The end comes quick.
 
89Adopter said:
Sounds like things most players would do in those positions. Doesn't detract from his costly turnovers and the couple of marks he allowed players to take because his spoiling attempts were a mile away due to his drop in pace and decision making.

I don't care how much he 'tries his guts out' - if it's to no avail then what's the point of him playing?

Duryea and Schoenmakers got one chance this year after indifferent years in 2016, they've both been banished to the VFL. We didn't get all misty-eyed when Osborne and Sewell played out their time in the VFL because other players had passed them, both are premiership players and Sewell had a PCM to his name as well. Where was his free ticket to prevent Langford gametime in 2014?

There's a time for sentiment - and it shouldn't be at the match committee. If Gibbo isn't up to AFL standard then he shouldn't play.
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Well.if most players would do it then why didnt Hannan have the smarts to push gibbo out of the contest first? He is a young player on the up?? Isnt that what you want to stack the side with? You reckon brand would have known to hand over automatically while the ball was in the air in the last contest of the game when it was utter chaos?

You want to get thru the next block of games successfully to salvage the season yet drop a reliable but declining defender for a seriously unreliable one in brand who was dropped last week?

Oh boy.
 
Gibbo will stay. As i said go and watch the game again. Gibbo was great especially in that last qtr when the game was on the line. Marks he couldn't spoil were those where he was third man up. Yes he has slowed down but he offers experience and big body. One final word we would rather Gibbo be the target of opposition forwards than Burton and Dimma. He in a way is protecting them showing them the way. He will continue to this. While he won't be the gun he was two years ago he still offers our youngsters who are struggling with the game plan good leadership.

Brand is learning I am sure he will make his way back into the side. He will learn along side Gibson. We can't get rid of Gibbo we have a few inexperienced defenders. Claiming sewell and osborne as ones that missed out well we still had a truck load of experience up forward in rough, franklin before he left, rioli with a couple of new faces who were gradually phased in breust and poppy. Gunners is a gun so he came in seemlessly.

Sewell leaving still left us with burgoyne, hodge mitchell and lewis to carry the load. Believe me the club wanted to keep Lewis but he left for a better deal and who can blame him.
 
TheFourPillars said:
Gibbo will stay. As i said go and watch the game again. Gibbo was great especially in that last qtr when the game was on the line. Marks he couldn't spoil were those where he was third man up. Yes he has slowed down but he offers experience and big body. One final word we would rather Gibbo be the target of opposition forwards than Burton and Dimma. He in a way is protecting them showing them the way. He will continue to this. While he won't be the gun he was two years ago he still offers our youngsters who are struggling with the game plan good leadership.

Brand is learning I am sure he will make his way back into the side. He will learn along side Gibson. We can't get rid of Gibbo we have a few inexperienced defenders. Claiming sewell and osborne as ones that missed out well we still had a truck load of experience up forward in rough, franklin before he left, rioli with a couple of new faces who were gradually phased in breust and poppy. Gunners is a gun so he came in seemlessly.

Sewell leaving still left us with burgoyne, hodge mitchell and lewis to carry the load. Believe me the club wanted to keep Lewis but he left for a better deal and who can blame him.
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I feel in some ways the most important part of what you posted is the beating Gibbo can take on behalf of the kids

Man has put his body on the line for years, he can't bounce back up from the hits like he used to but he is still taking them and saving the kids some of those hits which will help them contribute for more games this year
 
Rose coloured glasses guys. We can try & try & then try again to justify his existence in our team, however the reality is that Josh Gibson is only still in the side ... well ... because ... his name is Josh Gibson. Like the inclusion of a few others on our list, we may look imposing (or at least competitive) on paper but the reality is what it is. This debate is getting tired!

Sent from my bed with some fava beans & a fine chianti.
 
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Siri said:
Rose coloured glasses guys. We can try & try & then try again to justify his existence in our team, however the reality is that Josh Gibson is only still in the side ... well ... because ... his name is Josh Gibson. Like a few others on our list, we may look imposing (or at least competitive) on paper but the reality is what it is. This debate is getting tired!

Sent from my bed with some fava beans & a fine chianti.
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I agree the debate is getting tired when there are a group that suggest that he is only in the team because his name is Josh Gibson

Those posters are basically saying that Clarko has no idea what he is doing. Now maybe he is putting to much faith in someone that has repaid that faith many times in the past, maybe though he is in for reasons like those mentioned by some on here.

Maybe he's there to take the hits for the kids. Maybe he is there to help transition the backline to the new batch, because we know Hodge and Burgers, may spend a fair amount of time back there but they do occasionally go into the middle or forward

Add to that he spends over 90% of his game time on the ground, he isn't just a constant down back, he doesn't take up much in the way of rotations

Hodge averages in the 80s
Burgoyne averages in the in the low 80s
Frawley in the high 90s
Stratton around 90
Brand 90s
Harwick 70s
Birch would be 80s
Miles 70s
Howe 70s
Doc 70s
Burton 80s

So the kids cannot really do the ironman game time, they take rotations, this isn't just in the backline

One thing often overlooked in all the vertans being played is they can usually handle more game time than the kids, with limited rotations Gibbo give back some interchanges for someone else to use

It also means you have Stratton, Frawley and Gibson there pretty much full time

Remember there is more to this caper than just individual stats
 
Roger Rogerson said:
Just watched the 1st half again. Gibbo flawless other than trying a fend off where he was up against it and was caught. Not 1 mistake defensively or with the ball.
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The backline looked awesome with Birch around
 

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I would be getting games into Heatherly and Brand over Gibbo now! I know he has been a trooper that has helped us get plenty of silverware but theses kids now need games to grow!
 
Burgoyne said in his interview after the game that Hawthorns problem was that they had not been predictable to each other. They are starting to get predictable to each other now.
To become a winning team you need to be able to predict the moves of your team mates to get the jump on your opponent.
To me Hawthorn has improved by having less new and unpredictable players in the team.
Gibbo is essential to making the backline predictable.
It is also hard for Gibbo to play his game when there are too many unpredictable players on the backline. It is also harder for Gibbo to kick the ball out of defence when he turns around and a Lewis, Mitch or Hill are not there to take his kick or handball. He then tries to buy time until and option appears and he gets caught and looks slow.
There needs to be a slow transition to a new team line up and making too many changes just creates chaos.
 
Teamwork Talks said:
Burgoyne said in his interview after the game that Hawthorns problem was that they had not been predictable to each other. They are starting to get predictable to each other now.
To become a winning team you need to be able to predict the moves of your team mates to get the jump on your opponent.
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Abso - ******* - lutely!!!!

While the media was lightning fast to talk about our s**t list, it was obvious in the first rounds, from the way we ran around in circles, looked for people who weren't there, handballed to where people were not quite at...that the main problem was game plan related.

Every person knowing his role, and position, at every time.

If you've ever heard the players talk to each other at training, most of it is extremely complex, almost like an NFL playbook.

Maybe Clarko had underestimated the amount of time it would take to completely gel.

We were all over the shop at first; hopefully we can see it become more seamless and systematic over the rest of the year.
 
Teamwork Talks said:
Burgoyne said in his interview after the game that Hawthorns problem was that they had not been predictable to each other. They are starting to get predictable to each other now.
To become a winning team you need to be able to predict the moves of your team mates to get the jump on your opponent.
To me Hawthorn has improved by having less new and unpredictable players in the team.
Gibbo is essential to making the backline predictable.
It is also hard for Gibbo to play his game when there are too many unpredictable players on the backline. It is also harder for Gibbo to kick the ball out of defence when he turns around and a Lewis, Mitch or Hill are not there to take his kick or handball. He then tries to buy time until and option appears and he gets caught and looks slow.
There needs to be a slow transition to a new team line up and making too many changes just creates chaos.
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Well thought out.
The only kink is that all HFC players, firsts / BHH / Development and rookies train the same game plan.
In fact, they spend more time together in mixed groupings at training Mon thru Fri than the 2 hour game on weekends of familiar 1sts.
While Gibbo may have had more game time familiarity with certain players, it's on every player picked to be where they should be, where they've trained to be, and what to do with the ball from there.

For mine, it's been more a matter of teams being able to waltz the ball downfield, either from the center bounce or from their own backline, through a defensive pattern given by our coaches, and that our players have been unwilling to work hard enough, gut out enough, to make things difficult for the opposition when bringing the ball into our defensive half.
Add that to physical decline, and you're asking players to play faster than they're now capable of doing comfortably.

I'm happy for Gibbo to play out the season and rotate young players through the back 6, giving them a taste of what's needed, with the expectation of a big pre-season and hitting the ground running next year.
 
Clarko should be saying to Gibbo just spoil, don't waste your energy anywhere else, just get to all the
marking contests and get the ball to ground and let the others get it and run.
 
89Adopter said:
I'm pretty sure bluespooner is Angus Litherland, or a member of his family.
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Gee we've have/had some average defenders on our list. Every time Litherland got the footy I used to face palm for a second, then look up and wait for the damage his kicks caused us.
 
KB actually looks better with ball in hand than Gibson, I'm not sure the point in keeping Gibson in the side particularly as he is not going to be around next year. Brand needs games, he needs to play each and every week, he can be 1 of the 2 pillars we need as key defensive back, all Gibbo is doing is halting his progress. Everyone has an ego, everyone likes to think they are better than they are or when the time comes to trot of, you think you still have another kick left. Gibbo was better on the weekend, but his better is getting far outweighed by his deplorable for the best part of the last 10-15 games.

He is a legend, always will be but maybe its best he serve out his time coaching the kids at City oval and focussing on his businesses.

I'll also say that I wouldn't hold it against Brand if he wanted to take off next year, he seems first cab off the rank each time a change needs to be made. I get the feeling he would be growing ever uncomfortable with his situation, a guy who deserves to be playing senior footy isn't.
 
tige19 said:
KB actually looks better with ball in hand than Gibson, I'm not sure the point in keeping Gibson in the side particularly as he is not going to be around next year. Brand needs games, he needs to play each and every week, he can be 1 of the 2 pillars we need as key defensive back, all Gibbo is doing is halting his progress. Everyone has an ego, everyone likes to think they are better than they are or when the time comes to trot of, you think you still have another kick left. Gibbo was better on the weekend, but his better is getting far outweighed by his deplorable for the best part of the last 10-15 games.

He is a legend, always will be but maybe its best he serve out his time coaching the kids at City oval and focussing on his businesses.

I'll also say that I wouldn't hold it against Brand if he wanted to take off next year, he seems first cab off the rank each time a change needs to be made. I get the feeling he would be growing ever uncomfortable with his situation, a guy who deserves to be playing senior footy isn't.
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You forgot to mention the Kool Aid.
By the way, have I said that I hate this thread.
 
If we are not having a crack for a flag, I would be putting games into Kurt. Gibbo has lost his speed but he reads the game better than just about anyone. Kurt has the speed and the attacking mindset. He needs game time to see if he can pick up the flow of AFL.

It's probably that Gibbo will retire at year's end. Equally probable that Kurt will be delisted. It seems we have starved Kurt an opportunity to make it for no real benefit.
 
tige19 said:
Gee we've have/had some average defenders on our list. Every time Litherland got the footy I used to face palm for a second, then look up and wait for the damage his kicks caused us.
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As deficient as Litherland was on occasion - and he never got a fair run at it - I don't think any defender could have been as poor as Gibson for the last year and a half and still be getting a game in the AFL.

Wow, and you talk about kicks doing damage, you must just love the floaters that come off the very one-sider Gibson's boot. But hey he's a two time Peter Crimmin's medalist and therefore, it follows he must be better than Chris Mew, Chris Langford and even Kelvin Moore.
 
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