Ginbey/Lalor incident

[LukeParkerno1]

At some point the AFL is going to crack down on this. It's rough conduct to intentionally push a player into contests while in vulnerable positions. Ginbey is looking at the market player as he pushes Lalor into him. That's not an accident.

If they don't do it for this incident, gurantee the next one they will.

You'll be suspending 20 blokes a game for pushing, it's a push. You are suspending the outcome not the incident. That is exactly my point. Can we stop looking at the outcome. You can do the same thing to another bloke and he comes off the field laughing and doing handstands. I hate what the AFL have done in the last few years. I am all for the pinned tackles and the shoulder to the head contact being suspended, but this is the result of the rubbish suspend the outcome narrative, every fan thinks someone should pay for their player being injured when 99 times out of 100 it's just bad luck more than anything. Suspend the bad ones, but thats where it should end.

 

[Quinz]

It's rough conduct to intentionally push a player into contests while in vulnerable positions. Ginbey is looking at the market player as he pushes Lalor into him. That's not an accident.

Ginbey decided to push Lalor deliberately into his own player who was marking uncontested? His own player in a vulnerable position going back with the flight? Think about what you're saying. That makes no sense.

 

[Bald]

probably a free kick and 50..... but what a can of worms if lalor crashes into an umpire instead and both go down. concussed with busted jaws x 2

Flip it. What a can of worms if we suspend someone for pushing a player in a marking contest.

Nobody wants that Aussie Rules.

 

[Barnzy]

You'll be suspending 20 blokes a game for pushing, it's a push. You are suspending the outcome not the incident. That is exactly my point. Can we stop looking at the outcome. You can do the same thing to another bloke and he comes off the field laughing and doing handstands. I hate what the AFL have done in the last few years. I am all for the pinned tackles and the shoulder to the head contact being suspended, but this is the result of the rubbish suspend the outcome narrative, every fan thinks someone should pay for their player being injured when 99 times out of 100 it's just bad luck more than anything. Suspend the bad ones, but thats where it should end.

They've been suspending the outcome not incident for years. Minor tackles or perfect tackles that come loose at the end and cause some damage are being suspended. Pushes in marketing contests like this are the grey area but I would argue are just as or more dangerous with players vulnerable in mid air. If we want consistency then incidents like this will be suspended too

 

[LukeParkerno1]

They've been suspending the outcome not incident for years. Minor tackles or perfect tackles that come loose at the end and cause some damage are being suspended. Pushes in marketing contests like this are the grey area but I would argue are just as or more dangerous with players vulnerable in mid air. If we want consistency then incidents like this will be suspended too

Suspending the outcome doesn't mean it's right, it's the AFL being ridiculous as per usual. This is an opportunity for the AFL to just say, it's just bad luck, move on, get on with the season to both clubs, players. Case closed and no one will talk about it.

 

[tiger_tough]

Yes. A push isn’t one of them.

Move on, your player is unlucky and you’re annoyed. Rightfully so, I’m annoyed a quarter of our best 22 is currently injured but it’s nobody’s fault. Shit just happens.

Isn't it? Cos James Frawley was reported (and copped a $2000 fine) for a push a few years ago? It was even used as one of the examples of a reportable Offence available to clubs which were processed in accordance with tribunal guidelines.

Example 25 - James Frawley on Jeremy Cameron (Round 8, 2019) Careless Conduct, Low Impact, Body Contact

So yes, a push can, and has very much been graded as rough conduct in the past. Now add a concussion and broken jaw into the mix.



At the very least it's worthy of discussion and I think I've been completely objective.

Cool story about your injuries, it's completely irrelevant here

 

[Young Gun #6]

2-4 weeks.

Settle on 3.

 

[Bald]

Isn't it? Cos James Frawley was reported (and copped a $2000 fine) for a push a few years ago? It was even used as one of the examples of a reportable Offence available to clubs which were processed in accordance with tribunal guidelines.

Example 25 - James Frawley on Jeremy Cameron (Round 8, 2019) Careless Conduct, Low Impact, Body Contact

So yes, a push can, and has very much been graded as rough conduct in the past. Now add a concussion and broken jaw into the mix.



At the very least it's worthy of discussion and I think I've been completely objective.

Cool story about your injuries, it's completely irrelevant here

I apologise. You're right. If you carelessly push a player into a ****ing fence you might be fined.

Now, were you able to find any vision of players being suspended for pushes in marking contests? I'm guessing you can't? I wonder why that is.

 

[tiger_tough]

I apologise. You're right. If you carelessly push a player into a ****ing fence you might be fined.

Now, were you able to find any vision of players being suspended for pushes in marking contests? I'm guessing you can't? I wonder why that is.

Well at some point no one had been charged for pushing their opponent into a fence either. Until they were. I'm not sure it really makes a difference what object you're pushing the person into either, what matters is if the 'duty of care' is breached or not.

It's okay that you didn't know what the rule encompassed, now you do. Own it.

 

[bradfisher14]

Not even round 1 and we've already got tigers fans having a sook about absolutely nothing.

Gonna be a long year for you guys.

 

[Bald]

Well at some point no one had been charged for pushing their opponent into a fence either. Until they were. I'm not sure it really makes a difference what object you're pushing the person into either, what matters is if the 'duty of care' is breached or not.

It's okay that you didn't know what the rule encompassed, now you do. Own it.

See this is the part in a discussion where you're clutching at straws trying to get a W in an attempt to make yourself feel better. I won't own it but I will do my best to educate you.

If there's no fence, is Frawley reported? No. So the report doesn't exist because of a push, it exists because of a push into the fence (as it was in the Natanui/Merrett exchange in 2019) and sure, in those very one off occasions it can be viewed as rough conduct but if you are seriously trying to do the mental gymnastics that a push in a marking contest is in anyway comparable to a push into an inanimate object then by golly I feel for anybody who has the pleasure of conversing with you.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Well at some point no one had been charged for pushing their opponent into a fence either. Until they were. I'm not sure it really makes a difference what object you're pushing the person into either, what matters is if the 'duty of care' is breached or not.

It's okay that you didn't know what the rule encompassed, now you do. Own it.

I think duty of care is the big one here. Not only for the guy that was pushed, but also the player trying to take the mark. It's effectively ended up as tunnelling, except that the "tunneler" was merely a passenger.

Maybe not a suspension this time, as we haven't seen anyone injured in this way before. But I'd be totally ok with the AFL coming out and using this as an example. If you perform this action in a marking contest, and the person you push gets injured, you'll be in strife. There is no need for that action in the first place (notwithstanding the fact that it's illegal anyway).

For the life of me, I can't figure out what Ginby was actually trying to do there. If he was attempting to block for his teammate, it was an awful effort.

 

[Carn The Berries]

See this is the part in a discussion where you're clutching at straws trying to get a W in an attempt to make yourself feel better. I won't own it but I will do my best to educate you.

If there's no fence, is Frawley reported? No. So the report doesn't exist because of a push, it exists because of a push into the fence (as it was in the Natanui/Merrett exchange in 2019) and sure, in those very one off occasions it can be viewed as rough conduct but if you are seriously trying to do the mental gymnastics that a push in a marking contest is in anyway comparable to a push into an inanimate object then by golly I feel for anybody who has the pleasure of conversing with you.

There's actually a risk of injuring 2 players by pushing someone the way Ginby did. He ended up cannoning into a defenceless player with his arms outstretched trying to take the a mark.

It's not as much of a leap as you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

It's called footy where some accidents happen. Lalor would not even think there's anything with it. Sometimes oiutcomes happen, what do you want blokes to not play footy? Ginbey plays the game hard but fair, this was just an unlucky outcome that's all. Not as if Lalor is missing many games anyway.

Ginbey is of bad character. He got arrested for urinating in public and not giving his details to police.
He knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[Bald]

There's actually a risk of injuring 2 players by pushing someone the way Ginby did. He ended up cannoning into a defenceless player with his arms outstretched trying to take the a mark.

It's not as much of a leap as you're trying to make it out to be.

I agree it could have injured players.

It's still a push in a marking contest.

 

[Quinz]

For the life of me, I can't figure out what Ginby was actually trying to do there. If he was attempting to block for his teammate, it was an awful effort.

The second angle of the incident from the video gives a better indication and shows why its clearly an accident. Lalor and Ginbey are grappling and Lalor is trying to impact Brock taking an uncontested mark back with the flight.

Ginbey is trying to move Lalor to the right of the contest but Lalor moves in front of him at the last moment and Ginbey shoves him under the shoulder blade to push him to the right but didn't get his timing right. In the end causing the collision he was trying to prevent.

His own team mate is the one in the vulnerable position, he's not pushing Lalor into a pack, he's trying to protect his teammate. Actions are not unreasonable in the circumstance and there is no provision for him to be suspended under the current rules.

 

[Carn The Berries]

I agree it could have injured players.

It's still a push in a marking contest.

It was an unnecessary, illegal, and entirely dangerous push. Whether people like it or not, duty of care is a consideration for the league these days.

 

[Vikingnz]

Obviously not a suspension but still a dumb as **** decision to push Lalor like that - had as much chance of injuring his own man via tunnelling.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Wasn’t there a player in the AFLW who did something similar this season just gone, think she got suspended but got off on appeal.

Found it, not quite the same, but similar idea - https://www.afl.com.au/aflw/news/1250860/richmond-gun-learns-fate-for-umpire-contact-at-tribunal

Based on that he should get off, but I think you’d want to be very careful if your the next bloke to do it

 

[Carn The Berries]

The second angle of the incident from the video gives a better indication and shows why its clearly an accident. Lalor and Ginbey are grappling and Lalor is trying to impact Brock taking an uncontested mark back with the flight.

Ginbey is trying to move Lalor to the right of the contest but Lalor moves in front of him at the last moment and Ginbey shoves him under the shoulder blade to push him to the right but didn't get his timing right. In the end causing the collision he was trying to prevent.

His own team mate is the one in the vulnerable position, he's not pushing Lalor into a pack, he's trying to protect his teammate. Actions are not unreasonable in the circumstance and there is no provision for him to be suspended under the current rules.

Again, there is a duty of care there, particularly when you're performing an action that is illegal anyway. From the outcome I think it's fair to say that Lalor ended up being pretty vulnerable too.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Ginbey is of bad character. He got arrested for urinating in public and not giving his details to police.
He knew exactly what he was doing.

Does he work for Woodside too?

 

[tiger_tough]

See this is the part in a discussion where you're clutching at straws trying to get a W in an attempt to make yourself feel better. I won't own it but I will do my best to educate you.

If there's no fence, is Frawley reported? No. So the report doesn't exist because of a push, it exists because of a push into the fence (as it was in the Natanui/Merrett exchange in 2019) and sure, in those very one off occasions it can be viewed as rough conduct but if you are seriously trying to do the mental gymnastics that a push in a marking contest is in anyway comparable to a push into an inanimate object then by golly I feel for anybody who has the pleasure of conversing with you.

I'm not trying to get a 'W'. It's just a discussion, and neither result will 'make me feel better'.

First you said a push can't be rough conduct, now it can be. You asked which rule was broken, and I gave you one possibility with precedence. No need to keep shifting the goalposts just because you were unaware.

I think duty of care is the big one here. Not only for the guy that was pushed, but also the player trying to take the mark. It's effectively ended up as tunnelling, except that the "tunneler" was merely a passenger.

Maybe not a suspension this time, as we haven't seen anyone injured in this way before. But I'd be totally ok with the AFL coming out and using this as an example. If you perform this action in a marking contest, and the person you push gets injured, you'll be in strife. There is no need for that action in the first place (notwithstanding the fact that it's illegal anyway).

For the life of me, I can't figure out what Ginby was actually trying to do there. If he was attempting to block for his teammate, it was an awful effort.

There's actually a risk of injuring 2 players by pushing someone the way Ginby did. He ended up cannoning into a defenceless player with his arms outstretched trying to take the a mark.

It's not as much of a leap as you're trying to make it out to be.

Agree. May well end up being 'the Ginbey rule'. First ones free, but the AFL will close the vagueness to clear it up going forward like they did with Maynard/Brayshaw.

 

[kane249]

EDIT: Link to the tweet isn't working for some reason

x.com

x.com

Video posted yesterday by the team

This wasn't deemed a suspension when Hopepr did it in round 23 last year. Hawks player ended up with a broken collarbone

 

[Carn The Berries]

I'm not trying to get a 'W'. It's just a discussion, and neither result will 'make me feel better'.

First you said a push can't be rough conduct, now it can be. You asked which rule was broken, and I gave you one possibility with precedence. No need to keep shifting the goalposts just because you were unaware.


Agree. May well end up being 'the Ginbey rule'. First ones free, but the AFL will close the vagueness to clear it up going forward like they did with Maynard/Brayshaw.

I'm also totally ok with players being suspended for being Richard Craniums and doing dumb things, even if the outcome isn't too bad (though this one had quite a poor outcome for Lalor). Jumper punching is a perfect example, if you want to be a hero and jumper punch/gut punch someone you instantly get a week, regardless of whether they're hurt or not.

Ginby's action fits this theory too, even if Lalor wasn't injured.

 

[tiger_tough]

Wasn’t there a player in the AFLW who did something similar this season just gone, think she got suspended but got off on appeal.

Found it, not quite the same, but similar idea - https://www.afl.com.au/aflw/news/1250860/richmond-gun-learns-fate-for-umpire-contact-at-tribunal

Based on that he should get off, but I think you’d want to be very careful if your the next bloke to do it

She didn't get off, she got it downgraded to careless.

Bald here you go. Pushing a player into an ump also an offence. I don't think umps are 'inanimate objects'? I'm sure now you'll say 'of course, it's an umpire'. What's next? on your list of back peddling?