Going home and the National Draft

[3KZ is Football]

Well there you go. Looks like our number two draft pick is out the door.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...or-homesick-josh-schache-20171008-gywhj9.html

This does beg the question, how much groundwork is done on the desire and mental resilience of players before we draft them?

 

[MacMum]

Good question......and I would love to know how much emphasis is put on making sure the new draftees fully understand that this is a national competition and they could end up anywhere, have to leave home etc..

I don't think it should be up to each interviewing club to stress that fact.....the AFL and managers should hold a joint meeting with all the draftees to stress upon them the likelyhood of a move...to think about that and to drop out if not sure they could handle it, for the sake of someone else who could.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Good question......and I would love to know how much emphasis is put on making sure the new draftees fully understand that this is a national competition and they could end up anywhere, have to leave home etc..

I don't think it should be up to each interviewing club to stress that fact.....the AFL and managers should hold a joint meeting with all the draftees to stress upon them the likelyhood of a move...to think about that and to drop out if not sure they could handle it, for the sake of someone else who could.

Excellent post. The AFL needs to improve their performance in this area, otherwise the National Draft is forever compromised. Predominantly Victorian clubs get to ‘cherry pick’ first round picks from clubs like Brisbane after a season or two at the expense of clubs who were awarded those early picks to equalise the competition.

The other thing that occurs to me about Schache is that perhaps the club could retain him, holding him to his contract, but giving him an extended leave of absence. If he needs time at home with his family, fine, but he stands out of football.

 

[Forward We Go]

Good question......and I would love to know how much emphasis is put on making sure the new draftees fully understand that this is a national competition and they could end up anywhere, have to leave home etc..

I don't think it should be up to each interviewing club to stress that fact.....the AFL and managers should hold a joint meeting with all the draftees to stress upon them the likelyhood of a move...to think about that and to drop out if not sure they could handle it, for the sake of someone else who could.

So when you say the above bolded words, do you mean give up on his dream to play AFL because he doesn't want to move interstate or give up because you doubt you have the mental toughness to play AFL at the highest level? Please clarify.

 

[Forward We Go]

Excellent post. The AFL needs to improve their performance in this area, otherwise the National Draft is forever compromised. Predominantly Victorian clubs get to ‘cherry pick’ first round picks from clubs like Brisbane after a season or two at the expense of clubs who were awarded those early picks to equalise the competition.

The other thing that occurs to me about Schache is that perhaps the club could retain him, holding him to his contract, but giving him an extended leave of absence. If he needs time at home with his family, fine, but he stands out of football.

The National Draft will ALWAYS be compromised. That's how it is simply because most draftees come from Victoria. Until that changes, (if ever) that's the way it is.
In trying to see the glass as 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty, we should look at how Melbourne Storm have been so successful without ANY local players on their list....WHATS THEIR SECRET TO SUCCESS???

 

[dlanod]

Moved into a new thread because this has already branched well beyond the scope of Josh Schache's Roster Watch thread.

 

[kharis]

Good question......and I would love to know how much emphasis is put on making sure the new draftees fully understand that this is a national competition and they could end up anywhere, have to leave home etc..

I don't think it should be up to each interviewing club to stress that fact.....the AFL and managers should hold a joint meeting with all the draftees to stress upon them the likelyhood of a move...to think about that and to drop out if not sure they could handle it, for the sake of someone else who could.

Feel the problem is not the players but the Victorian clubs supported by the the VFL pretending to be the AFL. Until the AFL becomes serious about a national comp this will continue. If the AFL was serious they would have regulated to stop this or at least making this a win win. Basically QLD clubs are here to increase TV $$$.

 

[Jivlain]

The National Draft will ALWAYS be compromised. That's how it is simply because most draftees come from Victoria. Until that changes, (if ever) that's the way it is.
In trying to see the glass as 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty, we should look at how Melbourne Storm have been so successful without ANY local players on their list....WHATS THEIR SECRET TO SUCCESS???

Well, most of the Storm's players are from Queensland*, a state which produces a solid chunk of the available rugby league talent, but has only three teams. So if we can convince the AFL to shutdown or relocate Geelong, Hawthorn, Melbourne, North, Richmond, St Kilda and the Bulldogs we should just about be in business. There won't be enough spots on Victorian lists to accomodate everyone going home so a bunch of them will necessarily have their trade satisfactorily restrained.

* well, they represent Queensland, and I will consult Denis Carnahan on the details.

 

[MacMum]

So when you say the above bolded words, do you mean give up on his dream to play AFL because he doesn't want to move interstate or give up because you doubt you have the mental toughness to play AFL at the highest level? Please clarify.

a) If he doesn't want to move interstate, he is not likely to settle as quickly as someone who has the drive and spirit to embrace the move...leads to the problem similar to what we have now with Josh.....and if he doesn't want to move interstate, he should not be nominating himself to play at the highest level. Step aside for someone who does.

b) You mentioned mental toughness. That may not become apparent until the move interstate has been made... but having said that, part of mental toughness would be being prepared to push through the tough times because of their determination and ambition to make it at the top level. If the person has any doubts of being able to do that, then yes, they should think about dropping out of the draft to allow someone else to have a chance.

On this last part, I believe this is were the AFL must play a bigger part....ie going back to my original post about meetings with the players and setting out the pros and cons of moving interstate and their responsibilities to the club that may draft them.

 

[Forward We Go]

a) If he doesn't want to move interstate, he is not likely to settle as quickly as someone who has the drive and spirit to embrace the move...leads to the problem similar to what we have now with Josh.....and if he doesn't want to move interstate, he should not be nominating himself to play at the highest level. Step aside for someone who does.

b) You mentioned mental toughness. That may not become apparent until the move interstate has been made... but having said that, part of mental toughness would be being prepared to push through the tough times because of their determination and ambition to make it at the top level. If the person has any doubts of being able to do that, then yes, they should think about dropping out of the draft to allow someone else to have a chance.

On this last part, I believe this is were the AFL must play a bigger part....ie going back to my original post about meetings with the players and setting out the pros and cons of moving interstate and their responsibilities to the club that may draft them.

Missing the point a little McMum.
a) He WAS willing to move interstate. When the trade was done, he was fine with moving up to Brisbane where his Dad played. That's fact.
b) There are lots of past AFL drafted players who found out they didn't have the mental strength to play at the highest level once they actually experienced it first hand. Surprising as it may seem, lots of these young men didn't even move away from home and were located here in Melbourne.

To stop a young man from realising his life long dream of playing AFL at the highest level because you are not sure if you can handle the pressure is simply bizarre. Following your thoughts, there would be plenty of current & past AFL footballers who just gave it away because they were unsure if the pressure was going to be to hard to cope with. This is not only isolated to footy either, it could be any profession that someone might have a passion for and is willing to have a crack.
I understand your feelings about potentially losing our 2nd round 2015 pick. IT SUCKS. But I can assure you that clubs do a significant amount of due diligence when thinking about drafting ANY player. Unfortunately, the problem you want to solved can only be fixed with a time machine. Anything else is left up to how the player cope with the pressure as his career develops....Where can The Lions get a time machine? Gumtree??

 

[Gadzorks]

a) If he doesn't want to move interstate, he is not likely to settle as quickly as someone who has the drive and spirit to embrace the move...leads to the problem similar to what we have now with Josh.....and if he doesn't want to move interstate, he should not be nominating himself to play at the highest level. Step aside for someone who does.

b) You mentioned mental toughness. That may not become apparent until the move interstate has been made... but having said that, part of mental toughness would be being prepared to push through the tough times because of their determination and ambition to make it at the top level. If the person has any doubts of being able to do that, then yes, they should think about dropping out of the draft to allow someone else to have a chance.

On this last part, I believe this is were the AFL must play a bigger part....ie going back to my original post about meetings with the players and setting out the pros and cons of moving interstate and their responsibilities to the club that may draft them.

Families also play a big role in preparing their kid for moving. Possible problem is that in their draft year they are also doing year 12 so pretty high stress and physical load.

the families would be cosseting them just to help them get through and there would be no time to do stuff like teaching them to shop , cook, clean, laundry and basically run their own lives. Things that might make the transition easier. Our club does run sessions on this stuff for the kids but that's after the move. Karnesis struggled with this I believe.

 

[Forward We Go]

Well, most of the Storm's players are from Queensland*, a state which produces a solid chunk of the available rugby league talent, but has only three teams. So if we can convince the AFL to shutdown or relocate Geelong, Hawthorn, Melbourne, North, Richmond, St Kilda and the Bulldogs we should just about be in business. There won't be enough spots on Victorian lists to accomodate everyone going home so a bunch of them will necessarily have their trade satisfactorily restrained.

* well, they represent Queensland, and I will consult Denis Carnahan on the details.

Not saying its an easy fix just to look at Melbourne Storm & copy them however they do a lot of things right to achieve the success in a state where AFL is by far the #1 sport. Also don't think it's just QLD they look to recruit from. The best player that fits their list (no matter where he is from) would be their strategy. It just seems that way atm because they have plenty of QLD'ers in their list right now. They have had plenty of NSW players in the past successful years as well.

 

[Pancho Gonzales]

I work in the TAC Cup system and I can tell you that boys are genuine in their desire to play for anyone as long as they get to play AFL. But, of course, it's a view based on nothing - these boys just about all live at home and have had family driving them around for the past 2 years to get them to a draftable point. We've all found ourselves, at some point, in a job, relationship or situation where it hasn't turned out to be what we hoped. I don't know Josh, but I'd imagine he'd be potentially feeling pretty average about not being able to make it work interstate. For a young man to admit that he's not up to it would be pretty rough for him.

Cam Rayner says he's doesn't care where he goes and I believe him - just as I believe the boys from my TAC club. It's only going to be a year or two later that we'll know if we have a Simon Black level stayer or a Patrick Karnesis leaver.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I work in the TAC Cup system and I can tell you that boys are genuine in their desire to play for anyone as long as they get to play AFL. But, of course, it's a view based on nothing - these boys just about all live at home and have had family driving them around for the past 2 years to get them to a draftable point. We've all found ourselves, at some point, in a job, relationship or situation where it hasn't turned out to be what we hoped. I don't know Josh, but I'd imagine he'd be potentially feeling pretty average about not being able to make it work interstate. For a young man to admit that he's not up to it would be pretty rough for him.

Cam Rayner says he's doesn't care where he goes and I believe him - just as I believe the boys from my TAC club. It's only going to be a year or two later that we'll know if we have a Simon Black level stayer or a Patrick Karnesis leaver.

Terrific post. A lot of people either have rose-coloured glasses about how all-knowing they were when they were 20 or if by some fluke they actually were assume that all young people should be similarly omniscient.

 

[Fatcat08]

The National Draft will ALWAYS be compromised. That's how it is simply because most draftees come from Victoria. Until that changes, (if ever) that's the way it is.
In trying to see the glass as 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty, we should look at how Melbourne Storm have been so successful without ANY local players on their list....WHATS THEIR SECRET TO SUCCESS???

A large part of the Storms success has been having a very effective system and structure in place, which we're certainly working towards with our latest appointments. They also spent the best part of 4-5 years rorting the salary cap which certainly helped, and isn't something i'd personally be trying to replicate. Still they've bounced back again now through the systems.

They do also benefit from playing a game that only has 13 players on the field at the same time. This means that they can implement a gameplan (and hence a payment structure) that revolves around a small number of key players and interchanges in journeyman role players or young up and comers around them. Now this is a bit harder to do in an AFL environment due to the less structured nature of the game, therefore the responsibility is spread much more diversely across your players, which makes it more difficult to assign as large a portion of the responsibility for the gameplay to certain individuals.

Thats not to say that we can't learn from what they've done and take away different lessons. One could argue that we have an offsetting advantage in that we have a larger local talent base here when compared to the storm and local league players, and I see the academy continuing to develop that resource for us.

Overall we're slowly improving our governance and structures off the field, and I see this as a big step forward that will ultimately assist in these areas. Our player development is also building and this is an area where the storm excel in largely again due to the stable base they've built for new players to come into with complete buy in from everyone in the organisation. Unfortunately we haven't had that for over a decade and its not going to happen overnight.

I'll also re inforce the point made earlier that young players in QLD are much more limited in their options compared to Vic based AFL players. In Victoria pretty much most players are a 6 hour drive or less from Melbourne (where you have 10 options to play on a 40 something person squad). If you take the a similar distance then if you're south of Rockhampton you've got 2 teams of 40 players. Thats 400 spots compared to 80 so statistically you're pretty likely to have to move interstate (or an interstate equivalent in the cowboys distance wise) to get a spot on an NRL list. People sometimes forget as well that Townsville is 4 hours less driving or 25 minutes less flying than going to melbourne.

So overall its very hard to compare the two scenarios between us and the Storm due to all of the above. Thats not to say that we can't learn lessons from them as overall they're a very well run organisation.

 

[Dodongo]

Dodongo thinks maybe we need something similar to the NFL. Dodongo thinks increase the draft age to 20. It means they have to be in society for two years either working or studying higher education. Dodongo thinks that will gove them life skills to be able to move from home. If not that then Dodongo thinks 3 or 4 year contracts and if they break them they have to sit out a year without pay before a club can take them. Dodongo thinks the AFL need to be tougher for the good of the game.

 

[M Malice]

Dodongo thinks maybe we need something similar to the NFL. Dodongo thinks increase the draft age to 20. It means they have to be in society for two years either working or studying higher education. Dodongo thinks that will gove them life skills to be able to move from home. If not that then Dodongo thinks 3 or 4 year contracts and if they break them they have to sit out a year without pay before a club can take them. Dodongo thinks the AFL need to be tougher for the good of the game.

We would need an elite national under 20 competition for that to work Dodongo and I can't see that being viable, we do not have the population/supporter base for it to work Dodongo, the U.S. has college footy/basketball etc. that get a great following and crowd Dodongo. If we didn't have that Dodongo players could drop out of the system and follow off field careers.

I agree with Dodongo's contract idea.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

We would need an elite national under 20 competition for that to work Dodongo and I can't see that being viable, we do not have the population/supporter base for it to work Dodongo

Can't just send them to the state leagues? You'd figure more of them would make the seniors at 19 and 20 years. Pretty much the case now without the interstate move.

 

[Forward We Go]

A large part of the Storms success has been having a very effective system and structure in place, which we're certainly working towards with our latest appointments. They also spent the best part of 4-5 years rorting the salary cap which certainly helped, and isn't something i'd personally be trying to replicate. Still they've bounced back again now through the systems.

They do also benefit from playing a game that only has 13 players on the field at the same time. This means that they can implement a gameplan (and hence a payment structure) that revolves around a small number of key players and interchanges in journeyman role players or young up and comers around them. Now this is a bit harder to do in an AFL environment due to the less structured nature of the game, therefore the responsibility is spread much more diversely across your players, which makes it more difficult to assign as large a portion of the responsibility for the gameplay to certain individuals.

Thats not to say that we can't learn from what they've done and take away different lessons. One could argue that we have an offsetting advantage in that we have a larger local talent base here when compared to the storm and local league players, and I see the academy continuing to develop that resource for us.

Overall we're slowly improving our governance and structures off the field, and I see this as a big step forward that will ultimately assist in these areas. Our player development is also building and this is an area where the storm excel in largely again due to the stable base they've built for new players to come into with complete buy in from everyone in the organisation. Unfortunately we haven't had that for over a decade and its not going to happen overnight.

I'll also re inforce the point made earlier that young players in QLD are much more limited in their options compared to Vic based AFL players. In Victoria pretty much most players are a 6 hour drive or less from Melbourne (where you have 10 options to play on a 40 something person squad). If you take the a similar distance then if you're south of Rockhampton you've got 2 teams of 40 players. Thats 400 spots compared to 80 so statistically you're pretty likely to have to move interstate (or an interstate equivalent in the cowboys distance wise) to get a spot on an NRL list. People sometimes forget as well that Townsville is 4 hours less driving or 25 minutes less flying than going to melbourne.

So overall its very hard to compare the two scenarios between us and the Storm due to all of the above. Thats not to say that we can't learn lessons from them as overall they're a very well run organisation.

Not saying we compare at all. I am saying we look at their secret to success & see what we can take on board. If anything, we have an advantage where we DO have local talent playing for us. In fact, a good handful right at the moment. Hippy, Harris, Keays, William, Hammelman, Beams (2), Zorko, Bell, Dawson, Allison, Smith & probably 2 more after draft 2017. (14 in total) Melbourne Storm have NOTHING from Melbourne except the supporter & home base.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Melbourne Storm have NOTHING from Melbourne except the supporter & home base.

They do have Young Tonumaipea and in the past they had Widdop and a few others. Not as many locals as the Lions by a long way though, that's fair.

 

[MSB ROYS]

They do have Young Tonumaipea and in the past they had Widdop and a few others. Not as many locals as the Lions by a long way though, that's fair.

Widdop is from England.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Widdop is from England.

And moved to Melbourne as a teenager, going through the Storm youth teams.