Halfway Mark: Thoughts So Far?

[hayes]

We've reached the halfway point of a season that probably didn't go the way a lot of us thought it would, and with no game to look forward to next weekend thought it would be a good time to see what's on your minds.

Obviously selection has been puzzling all year. From the mosquito fleet, TDL as sub, Hickey pretty much a permanent forward and the refusal to play more mids has had us all scratching our heads.

One positive has been the young blokes. Wright has slotted in perfectly at half back and is looking like a 5 year vet. Tough as nails, extremely quick and his kicking isn't anywhere near as bad as advertised. Definitely has star potential, the sooner he moves into the middle the better. Newnes can fade in and out of games but has improved as the seasons gone on and shown plenty of class. Ross has shown signs of being the next Pendlebury. Has more time than everyone else, makes the right decision every time and uses the ball well. Webster could be our Suckling, Murdoch and Saunders have shown signs at both AFL and VFL level, and all will improve with experience and a few more preseasons.

Jack Steven has taken the next step like we all hoped he would and Armo has improved as well, albeit probably not as much as Steven.

Saad and Milera are having a major case of second year blues. Both are suffering from our midfield getting beaten almost every week and not being able to go into there themselves. Shame after how they played last year but our list is at a different place to what it was last year.

Stanley has played well pretty much every week regardless of where he plays, and most importantly he's finally getting a good run at it. Lets hope it can continue. Still like him as that forward/ruck option more than anything.

Roberton has made a lot of us look like fools. Cool under pressure and uses the ball well. Some other positives have been Geary, Roo and Dempster.

Macca started off the year well but has fallen off in a big way. If he isn't taking marks in the backline I'm not sure what impact he has on a game if any. Is being monstered in the ruck, particularly at centre bounces.

Think it's now time to start getting games into Lee, and I think he should start off in the backline. Looks to have really helped Stanley and it can only be a good thing to see first hand how AFL forwards go about it and maybe pinch a few ideas from them in addition to what he's learning from Roo/Kosi.

That's it for now.

 

[Squizz]

Agree with pretty much all of the OP.

Not liking the injuries much.

Some posters had high hopes for Markworth.

Dempster did a hammy in the pre-season.

Fisher with his foot.

Jacko hurts his knee.

So too Gwilt.

Dempster his hand.

So too Maister.

Schneider has had no luck.

Hayes.

Gilbert.

Now Fisher again.

Let alone broken jaws to Newnes and Wright.

There's been alot without even worrying about the 1-2 week soft tissue stuff - and preseason issues with Hickey, Lee and White.

Even though it has allowed new players to get their opportunities, it rushes the process - and has helped create an unbalanced team (selection decisions probably amplifying this at times, including players being rushed into the team when not fit enough or in good enough form).

 

[aussierulesrules]

If I had to sum up our first half of the season in 3 words, they would be these: WE BEAT OURSELVES.

It's just what we do and we do it very, very well. It starts at selection and we take it from there into games.

Week after week, time after time in games, those three words enter my head, or at least, the words "we're beating ourselves".

Early in the year it was the clumsy free kicks and 50m penalties that we were giving away every minute or two, plus the dreadful turnovers, points kicked from relatively easy shots for goal and poor decision making and not much has changed after 11 rounds.

Joey's diabolical miss near the end tonight, when he had Milne and Roo alone in the goalsquare for the easy handball over the top, pretty much encapsulates the first half of our season in one play.

West Coast in no way, shape, or form were the better team tonight, but we managed to stuff up just enough times to enable them (with much help from the one-sided umpiring) to do a Stephen Bradbury and pass us in the end.

Our effort has generally been very good, but our execution is very poor far too often. Much more poise is needed. Just take that fraction of a second more to get balanced and relaxed and it will make a hell of a difference. It's far from just the younger ones, too, so I don't want to hear that as an excuse.

Our injuries sure as shit haven't helped either, including those that have been apparently playing injured, which haven't necessarily been officially recognised.

Oh, yeah, and the less said about the umpiring the better. It seems we practically have to get decapitated or ridden like a boogie-board just to get a free kick.

 

[SaintLex]

Good thread, good posts

I'm definitely one that had us finishing between 7-10 at the start of the year, which is looking ver unlikely. Pretty much after the Gold Coast loss in round 1, I really needed to re-evaluate where we are as a team. We're rebuilding. Even if the coaches and the players don't want to label it so, we are definitely going through that transition right now.

We have served up some quality efforts and some absolutely insipid efforts, there's no point sugar coating it. I would highlight tonight's game (WCE) as an example of how good this team can be when they're on. Our games vs Carlton, Richmond, Sydney and Collingwood were decent, albeit inconsistent, which is something we have to deal with as a re-building side. Our performances against Adelaide and Essendon, as well as the first quarter of the NM game were absolutely terrible. In these games we looked flat, tired and the intensity just wasn't there.

So that's just about where we are at as a team, in my opinion. We have shown that we have the capability to match quality sides, but I think while we pump games into the kids, we're going to get inconsistent performances.

As far as team structure, I think the dreams of having a pacy and dangerous mosquito fleet up and about has been a big fail, and as soon as we can move on from that the better. We need to replace at least one small forward with a mid. Pretty much non-negitiable from a structural point of view.

Then we have guys like Siposs, Saad, Milera etc. who seem to have stagnated, but we've seen some really promising signs from Webster, Ross, Wright etc.

Hopefully we can play like we did tonight more often than not.

 

[saber_32au]

As far as team structure, I think the dreams of having a pacy and dangerous mosquito fleet up and about has been a big fail, and as soon as we can move on from that the better. We need to replace at least one small forward with a mid. Pretty much non-negitiable from a structural point of view.

Agree 100%

The mozzie fleet just isn't working, and shouldn't be persisted with for the remaining part of the season. I had high hopes that Saad & Milera could be apart of the midfield rotations. Alas, that isn't the case.

Personally, I feel we'd be better served by either playing:

• 1 dedicated forward (ie Milne), and 2 midfield/forwards, who form part of the midfield rotation.
• 2 dedicated forwards (ie Milne + Saad/Milera/TDL) and a rotating midfield/forward.

Problem with the above idea is that apart for Milne's efforts today, all our small forwards have been down this year...

Unfortunately, I don't watch a lot of VLF footy...is there anyone there who could fill the void? Minchington/Curren/Ledger/Lee???? Saunders played well when he came on in the last...maybe he's a option??? Maybe Dunell (who I thought played damn well today)? Funny though...the word on the forums was Dunell hadn't done anything to deserve his spot in todays match....

Then we have guys like Siposs, Saad, Milera etc. who seem to have stagnated, but we've seen some really promising signs from Webster, Ross, Wright etc.

Agreed! Love the kids that we're playing at the moment...what a difference a few good years of recruiting makes! Need to play them as much as we can for the remainder of this year and next year while the old stalwarts are still around...

Hopefully we can play like we did tonight more often than not.

I hope so too. Unfortunately with the younger players, you can't expect consistent games week in,week out. We as supporters have to be patient...as hard as it will be, especially with the success we've had in the last 10 or so years...

 

[Saint_Dos]

Been impressed with the young guys that we have got games into so far.

Wright: looks great and a real tough nut

Saunders: shown a bit and hope he can get a full game in 2 weeks

Murdoch: looked good and in very good vfl form apparently.

Hickey: had his moments but needs 5-6 games at FF for sandy to get some fwd line skills

Lee: still not sold on him but has his moments where u see the talent Scotty saw.

Ferg: pretty harsh being dropped after a baptism by fire against Nth. Hope he gets another go later in season.

Ross: liked his work so far and seems to be gaining in confidence as he goes

Combine these with Jones and Roberton's new lease on life and Joey and Roos return to there best and we have had some positives.

Just showing our age this year with Fish, Lenny, Milney all below there normal form. And our small forwards have been poor.

Would be interesting if anyone has time to c someones ratings of each player so far this year.

 

[Macgruber]

U

If I had to sum up our first half of the season in 3 words, they would be these: WE BEAT OURSELVES.

It's just what we do and we do it very, very well. It starts at selection and we take it from there into games.

Week after week, time after time in games, those three words enter my head, or at least, the words "we're beating ourselves".

Early in the year it was the clumsy free kicks and 50m penalties that we were giving away every minute or two, plus the dreadful turnovers, points kicked from relatively easy shots for goal and poor decision making and not much has changed after 11 rounds.

Joey's diabolical miss near the end tonight, when he had Milne and Roo alone in the goalsquare for the easy handball over the top, pretty much encapsulates the first half of our season in one play.

West Coast in no way, shape, or form were the better team tonight, but we managed to stuff up just enough times to enable them (with much help from the one-sided umpiring) to do a Stephen Bradbury and pass us in the end.

Our effort has generally been very good, but our execution is very poor far too often. Much more poise is needed. Just take that fraction of a second more to get balanced and relaxed and it will make a hell of a difference. It's far from just the younger ones, too, so I don't want to hear that as an excuse.

Our injuries sure as shit haven't helped either, including those that have been apparently playing injured, which haven't necessarily been officially recognised.

Oh, yeah, and the less said about the umpiring the better. It seems we practically have to get decapitated or ridden like a boogie-board just to get a free kick.

Exactly we lose the unlosable. We have players who do the complete opposite to what they need to do to win a game. Watch 2009 GF and the last quarter against west coast to prove nothing has changed in this time. Players making the easy look ridiculously hard , panic , falling over for no reason, missing goals from 15 metres out is an all to common occurrence.

It happens to often for me to say hard luck . It's quite simply about learning from your mistakes. Ie stop choking FfS!! It so embarrassingly predictable.

Every week watters brings up inefficiency. We have been inefficient since GT was coaching how about you do something about it.

Personally I think watters should be sacked. he states he has a clear vision ?? what is this vision. as i very much doubt when he presented his vision of the club to the board when applying for coaching gig . He stated we'd miss the finals in his first year and be 3rd bottom in his second.

If he did then the board should be sacked. If he didn't then he should be sacked. He has lowered the bar on acceptable performances/results and its time someone came in without the rhetoric and simply got us beating the likes if Gold Coast w/bulldogs west coast.

I've never seen a club trade away so many first round draft picks who were apparently rebuilding .

 

[Defacto]

U

Exactly we lose the unlosable. We have players who do the complete opposite to what they need to do to win a game. Watch 2009 GF and the last quarter against west coast to prove nothing has changed in this time. Players making the easy look ridiculously hard , panic , falling over for no reason, missing goals from 15 metres out is an all to common occurrence.

It happens to often for me to say hard luck . It's quite simply about learning from your mistakes. Ie stop choking FfS!! It so embarrassingly predictable.

Every week watters brings up inefficiency. We have been inefficient since GT was coaching how about you do something about it.

Personally I think watters should be sacked. he states he has a clear vision ?? what is this vision. as i very much doubt when he presented his vision of the club to the board when applying for coaching gig . He stated we'd miss the finals in his first year and be 3rd bottom in his second.

If he did then the board should be sacked. If he didn't then he should be sacked. He has lowered the bar on acceptable performances/results and its time someone came in without the rhetoric and simply got us beating the likes if Gold Coast w/bulldogs west coast.

I've never seen a club trade away so many first round draft picks who were apparently rebuilding .

personally i think you should stop posting

 

[Q TRAIN]

I thought we were gonna be pretty ordinary this year ( we are ) and i actually think we will be worse next year unfortunately. Im not being negative, just realistic IMO.
But thats just how footy goes . We bottomed out pretty hard in the early 2000's , but by the end of 2003 it started to come good again. Same thing will happen now. In another 2 years Newnes , Ross , Webster and others will be massively improved. And with our salary cap free'd up we will pick up some extremely good trades you would hope.
2 or 3 very crappy years will have to be withstood, but then it can turn around very very quickly after that.
Besides from Melbourne most AFL clubs are run very professionally nowdays. We all like to have a gripe about coaches and recruiting staff ( me included ) but the reality is there is a reason they have that job and we are working 9 to 5. Because they know better than us, thats why.
This isnt the rock bottom Saints of the 80's. I have faith the people running our beloved Saints all have their eye on the big picture and 2015/16 is just as much on their minds as rnd 11 2013 was.

 

[saber_32au]

I thought we were gonna be pretty ordinary this year ( we are ) and i actually think we will be worse next year unfortunately. Im not being negative, just realistic IMO.
But thats just how footy goes . We bottomed out pretty hard in the early 2000's , but by the end of 2003 it started to come good again. Same thing will happen now. In another 2 years Newnes , Ross , Webster and others will be massively improved. And with our salary cap free'd up we will pick up some extremely good trades you would hope.
2 or 3 very crappy years will have to be withstood, but then it can turn around very very quickly after that.
Besides from Melbourne most AFL clubs are run very professionally nowdays. We all like to have a gripe about coaches and recruiting staff ( me included ) but the reality is there is a reason they have that job and we are working 9 to 5. Because they know better than us, thats why.
This isnt the rock bottom Saints of the 80's. I have faith the people running our beloved Saints all have their eye on the big picture and 2015/16 is just as much on their minds as rnd 11 2013 was.

Agreed with all of the above.

One thing we're chronically short on is key position defenders (ie FB and CHB). Fisher is pushing 30 (if not already there) and wont be around long term. Gwilt is too small (the poor dude was giving away 10+cm to both Cox/Nicknat FFS). Dempster is in the same situation as Fisher...ie pushing 30.

Unfortunately key position players don't grow on trees....where can we find some young key position defenders? Stage leagues perhaps???

I know it wont happen...but how much would the club be prepared to give up for a player like Talia??

 

[Baldur]

Personally I think watters should be sacked.

Way early for that call. We are rebuilding, the test for the coach is not winning games but improvement in youth, it is there.

As for the trading of first round picks, that's not Watters call. The main man there is Pelchen. He has been turning single picks into triple picks. Very well done trades.

First round picks, Meh. Most players end up as spuds, just look at how many first round picks fail. Melbourne has shown what happens if you rely of picking champions and forget about making champions.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Hell, I'm ticked off at his selections, nearly every week, and not even I want him sacked.

 

[The Punter]

To use the 1999-2003 analogy...

2012 was 1999.
This year is 2000, but we've got the kids in already. Considering due to recruiting and Blight 2001 was a write-off, it feels a little bit like 2002.

But 2002 may take 2 years this time. And we possibly don't have the top end (Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Ball, Clarke and Dal Santo were all top 15 picks, not one of the current crop of kids is), so that's another reason we may not bounce back quickly. But we're competitive, and the looming interchange cap may keep Riewoldt at the top for another year.

If you get stuck in the bottom part of the cycle too long, then you eventually get a little like Richmond or Melbourne.

But 2003 can't take too long either - 2 years at the most.

I'm bullish, and I think we've got at least four more wins left in us. I don't see us finishing below the Doggies.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Compared to 4 years ago ( 2009)
Main contested ball winners. Now/Then ( averages )
Steven 12 Lenny 10
Lenny 11 Dal Santo 10
Armitage 9 Ball 9
Dal Santo 9 Montagna 9
McEvoy 9* Armitage 8 ** *( while he's not clunking easy marks in the back line ) ** ( when he got to play ).
CJ 8 Goddard 8
Montagna 8 Jones 7
Ray 7 Gilbert 7

Hit Outs
McEvoy 21 Gardiner 21
Hickey 10 King 15
Kosi 6 McEvoy 8.5

Clearances
Steven 5.4 Hayes 5.6
Hayes 5.2 Dal Santo 4.7
Armitage 3.9 Ball 4.4
Dal Santo 3.5 Armitage 3.7
Jones 3.4 Montagna 3.5
Montagna 3.3 Jones 3.5

36 players 28 players

It goes on.
We are missing Ball, but we have Steven who is better.
The oldies really haven't slowed down that much.

I conclude that our 2009 success was nearly all because of the new game plan ( that we obviously stole from Mick Malthouse after borrowing the TARDIS to duck forward a year ).

I think its also pretty evident that our structure isn't right at the moment. ( as we all keep saying ).
Stanley as a forward seems to be able to supply a big big X factor.

Roberton has more than plugged the gap we had from Gram leaving.
Gilbert injury has been a massive down for us.

Ross seems very close to taking the next step.
Newnes and Wright also a possibility.

I think we should get more games into Dunell, while he hasn't always been great at VFL I think he may be one who is actually better at AFL level. He just seems very composed and effective every time he gets the ball.

So as effective players we have Steven and Roberton.
We have kids with games in them, none of them ready to stamp their mark on the game.
I wondered if Newnes might have gone better, but its only his second year.
Undecided on Sippo, he may not make it if he cant step up, hopefully he's tall enough to be a late developer.
Disappointed we've had nothing from Ledger. Could 2010 be another total write off.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Good post. Interesting stats re Dal Santo in 2009. He's certainly not the "outside mid" that many seem to think he is.

Don't think you need to worry at all about Siposs, as long as he's able to get over the injuries he has allegedly been dealing with this year. It's worth remembering that Jack Steven also allegedly had a lot of groin problems in his early years at the club and when he was Arryn's age he only averaged 11 disposals and a goal a game, which is less than Sippa was averaging even last year, when he was just 19, despite being less of a "ball-getter".

He has oodles of class and talent and once he is fully fit again he will remind us all of that and once he has another couple of full preseasons under his belt he ought to be able to play to a very high level for much more of the game, as most are at 22 or so.

 

[mysainters]

Admittedly I'm more of an optimist, but we're well below where I thought we'd be.

I guess I bought in to the preseason talk, and thought that with the older guys in fairly good nick, and reports of good preseasons from some young ones, we'd still be competitive.

It has been the lack of competitiveness that has surprised me, not so much the win/losses.

I remain critical of the lack of structure, and critical of some of the drafting in the last 2 seasons that sees us unable to address this structure as much as we'd probably like.

Surprised a little to hear murmurs from the senior players that there has to be a refreshing of the list of sorts, they would themselves know that we have to make up for lost time and couldn't of been ignorant to the fact that the same core pretty much played the last 5 years.

Appointing Chris Pelchen back in 2011 was in itself an admission that things had got horribly out of hand list wise, and that was before Scott arrived.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Surprised a little to hear murmurs from the senior players that there has to be a refreshing of the list of sorts, they would themselves know that we have to make up for lost time and couldn't of been ignorant to the fact that the same core pretty much played the last 5 years.

I think the issue is that it was sort of dumped on them very suddenly in the end. One week it was probably all systems go for the finals and so on, with some of them talking of their belief that we could still win the flag, during preseason interviews and of course from Scotty's "juggernaut" comment of late last season (so obviously internally there were high hopes and expectations, hence throwing the kitchen sink at Mitch Brown, to fill the one gaping hole we had left), but then all of a sudden, after a couple of losses, Scotty starts saying that we're "rebuilding", to take a bit of pressure off, which he took to mean what we have been doing since he arrived (turning over half the list and introducing plenty of the younger ones), which he has said numerous times of late hasn't changed since he arrived, but which the media took to mean we're "rebuilding", as in the traditional AFL meaning, like what Melbourne and WB were doing (and what we're probably doing now that we weren't able to turn that early season form around) knowing that they were pretty much no chance of playing finals, let alone winning the flag.

So when the playing group started to hear that, I think they were very taken aback and wondering WTF?, because it's pretty clear that internally we were still aiming for finals at the very least at that point (as we should have been, having only missed out on the top 4 by 4 close losses last year- plus losing another couple of very close ones) and with Roo and Joey looking like being back to their best, Lenny in great shape, Steven ripping it up on the track, Siposs looking good, Hickey impressing on the track, etc), but then all of a sudden with no mention of it to them (Scotty has said repeatedly that he had never mentioned the word "rebuilding" to the playing group- so to hear him mention it to the media, rather than to them, probably came as a big shock) and I think that is where a lot of the problems in that regard started.

I think there would have been a lot of confusion around the club for that next couple of days (including at board level, from what we've heard suggested) and according to the media, he came out and clarified what his meaning of "rebuilding" was, over that next couple of days and that he considers all AFL clubs to be constantly "building/rebuilding" their lists and that we were not in fact "rebuilding" in the traditional sense (like a WB or Melbourne were), but were in fact "refreshing", like Geelong are and like Collingwood did, when he was there in 2010 (when they brought in a few of the younger ones at the expense of the likes of O'Bree and Josh Fraser and co. who could still play to a good level).

So I think there was just a lot of confusion when the "rebuild" word first slipped out, but we were still playing very much to win at that point (hence Blake and Jones playing and no sign of Wright, Murdoch, Saunders, etc) and we then beat GWS well and then the next week he came out and talked up how we were really primed for a big performance against Essendon, but we were flat and dispirited and then the axe was swung the following week and that was the first time we probably picked a team that gave us little chance of winning (against Sydney) because we had 5 playing who had played 2 games or less.

I'm still not convinced that we were properly "rebuilding" and had given up on the year by that point, (because by a few weeks later we were back to picking closer to our best available team) but I think that was more of a threat to the older group that "you had better pull your fingers out and perform, or we're going to go properly into "full rebuild mode" and your hopes of winning a flag with this club are done" and we put up a really strong performance that night and again the following week (against Collingwood), which I think prompted us to pick closer to our best team the next week against Carlton, to give this year one last crack (remembering that we got off to a similarly poor start in 2011, yet came home like a train to finish 6th) and we of course won that game and I think we were still hoping that we might be able to at least stay competitive, or maybe even make the finals, but after that dreadful 2nd half against Adelaide and then the loss to WB, I think we finally pulled the pin on this year and we are now, officially (although unofficially!) in "full-rebuild mode".

So I can definitely feel for the senior playing group, as they had gone into the season like every other year of the last 10 or so seasons, aiming for a flag, or at the very least finals, yet all of a sudden they are getting these mixed messages about which direction we are heading in and now we almost certainly find ourselves in "proper rebuild" mode and many of their hopes of a premiership in their career are gone (at least if they stay).

So they haven't really had a lot of time to digest the fact that the thing they had strived so hard and long for and which they got so tragically close to, two years in a row, was now never going to happen for them (at least as a group, at this club), so I think they are/were more going through a "grieving" process, much more than "sooking", as some have suggested.

A flag was just about all they dreamed of and focused on for years and years and one week they are still aiming for it and believing they can do it and then the next it's all over and we're "rebuilding" and I can see how that would be a hard thing to get your head around and to just accept immediately, especially with all that initial confusion.

I dare say most of them will have gotten their heads around it now and will be on board, as Scotty has probably finally mentioned the "r-word" to them and explained it clearly that we are now heading down that track, but I can certainly see how it would have been hard for them to take initially, as they are not robots, who aren't emotionally invested in a flag and so on.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Compared to 4 years ago ( 2009)
Main contested ball winners. Now/Then ( averages )
Steven 12 Lenny 10
Lenny 11 Dal Santo 10
Armitage 9 Ball 9
Dal Santo 9 Montagna 9
McEvoy 9* Armitage 8 ** *( while he's not clunking easy marks in the back line ) ** ( when he got to play ).
CJ 8 Goddard 8
Montagna 8 Jones 7
Ray 7 Gilbert 7

Hit Outs
McEvoy 21 Gardiner 21
Hickey 10 King 15
Kosi 6 McEvoy 8.5

Clearances
Steven 5.4 Hayes 5.6
Hayes 5.2 Dal Santo 4.7
Armitage 3.9 Ball 4.4
Dal Santo 3.5 Armitage 3.7
Jones 3.4 Montagna 3.5
Montagna 3.3 Jones 3.5

36 players 28 players

It goes on.
We are missing Ball, but we have Steven who is better.
The oldies really haven't slowed down that much.

I conclude that our 2009 success was nearly all because of the new game plan ( that we obviously stole from Mick Malthouse after borrowing the TARDIS to duck forward a year ).

I think its also pretty evident that our structure isn't right at the moment. ( as we all keep saying ).
Stanley as a forward seems to be able to supply a big big X factor.

Roberton has more than plugged the gap we had from Gram leaving.
Gilbert injury has been a massive down for us.

Ross seems very close to taking the next step.
Newnes and Wright also a possibility.

I think we should get more games into Dunell, while he hasn't always been great at VFL I think he may be one who is actually better at AFL level. He just seems very composed and effective every time he gets the ball.

So as effective players we have Steven and Roberton.
We have kids with games in them, none of them ready to stamp their mark on the game.
I wondered if Newnes might have gone better, but its only his second year.
Undecided on Sippo, he may not make it if he cant step up, hopefully he's tall enough to be a late developer.
Disappointed we've had nothing from Ledger. Could 2010 be another total write off.

Great post. I think we have some good building blocks in place with some good 'cattle'. What we are missing which I hope we will sort out over the next two years are:

Elite/Marquee players
KPD's
Deeper midfield

With the advent of free agency as well as the room in our salary cap, I would be dumbfounded if we weren't major players come trade time, (at least trying to broker trades as I understand some trades won't get done due to other club not coming to the table).

 

[mysainters]

I still think you wouldn't employ Chris if you weren't planning a refreshing of sorts?

I'd be very surprised if the board wasn't aware that our future had been heavily compromised in the focus on the 'now' and sought to rectify it by employing a football manager and a new senior coach who could develop kids.

The juggernaut reference was taken out of context by (surprise surprise) David King, who made a big fuss over the fact that Scott had promised the Saints would be one this year when he clearly didn't.

To be fair, we really shouldn't base our expectations on what David King says Scott Watters said, and at least own the fact he didn't promise anything of the sort.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...ch-scott-watters/story-e6frepex-1226452136568

"I won't compromise our performance standards, but I think St Kilda has the capacity in the next three to four years ... it should become a juggernaut.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I still think you wouldn't employ Chris if you weren't planning a refreshing of sorts?

I'd be very surprised if the board wasn't aware that our future had been heavily compromised in the focus on the 'now' and sought to rectify it by employing a football manager and a new senior coach who could develop kids.

Of course we were "refreshing"/"rebuilding" and have been since 2011, because our list needed rebuilding in a huge way, but we were last year as well and that didn't stop us from going hell for leather for the finals and I don't think this year was any different, for the reasons I stated above, but it is pretty clear to me that we thought we could pull off a rebuild/refresh without having to bottom out, like Sydney did in incredibly similar circumstances after the 2009 season and like Collingwood did in 2010 and like Geelong are doing at the moment and that that was the message that was sold to the playing group (and almost certainly to the likes of Mitch Brown and Hickey, when trying to lure them).

Hence part of the reason for going for the likes of Hickey and Lee (after Saad and Milera the year before) and then throwing the kitchen sink at Brown and then picking pretty much our best available team for R1, including playing Jason Blake and Clint Jones and with no Wright, Saunders, Murdoch, Webster, Lee, Dunell, etc).

So, at the time, we were "rebuilding" the list, but at most "refreshing" the starting 22, but only a little and still going full-bore for the finals, but then, as I said, all of sudden Scotty mentions to the media that we're "rebuilding", which they take to mean something that he didn't intend it and all of a sudden it's all over the news that we're "rebuilding" (which was nothing new according to Scotty's version of it, but was very new to the media and general footy public, who have a different interpretation of that word) and as i said, it would have been a pretty big shock to the playing group, who, as far as they were concerned, were going about this season as they did the last and the year before that and so on.

If they'd had all summer to digest the fact that we were in "full rebuild mode" (which I believe we are in now, after all these losses, but weren't then) then I doubt there would have been any issue, but as I said, the shift from playing to win and aiming for finals, to all of a sudden winning not necessarily being the no.1 priority and it looking like we're probably going to be out of contention for years, came pretty suddenly and would have taken some time to digest and get their heads around, even though they probably would have known it was a possibility if all their plans went to shit. There probably would have been denial, anger, grief, etc, that they had to go through at that ultimate realisation that it was in fact "all over" for them as a group (winning a flag).

I'd be very surprised if the board wasn't aware that our future had been heavily compromised in the focus on the 'now' and sought to rectify it by employing a football manager and a new senior coach who could develop kids.

The board would have been aware of all that, but again, it's pretty obvious that internally we were of the belief that we could and were aiming to rebuild our list without bottoming out and so, when he all of a sudden mentions the fact that we are "rebuilding", just two weeks into the season (baring in mind what most consider "rebuilding" to mean), I think they would have been very shocked.

It would have sounded to them and probably the playing group that we were giving up on the season after just two weeks, which is not what Watters meant, I don't think, but it was lost in translation, so to speak, hence him doing a lot of backtracking/clarifying, over the next couple of days. I think it's pretty safe to say that if we had won those two games that we could have won that there would have been no mention of the "r-word", but because we lost I think he might have pulled it out to take a bit of the heat of him and/or the club, as a result of those losses. I actually think it was a bit of a convenient excuse, in that regard, to go with all the other excuses he tends to pull out after a close loss.

The juggernaut reference was taken out of context by (surprise surprise) David King, who made a big fuss over the fact that Scott had promised the Saints would be one this year when he clearly didn't.

To be fair, we really shouldn't base our expectations on what David King says Scott Watters said, and at least own the fact he didn't promise anything of the sort.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl/saints-fearless-declares-coach-scott-watters/story-e6frepex-1226452136568

"I won't compromise our performance standards, but I think St Kilda has the capacity in the next three to four years ... it should become a juggernaut.

I'm not sure King ever suggested that we would be a "juggernaut" this year, as I've heard him refer to that comment more than once and he didn't on those occasions, but it is very clear that we are highly unlikely to be a very long way from a "juggernaut" in even 3-4 years time, the way we find ourselves now.

I think the only chance of that happening was if we remained right in the finals mix at worst this year and were able to attract one or two "big fish" through free agency, plus doing a good trade or two, to get an Adams and/or a Mitch Brown, to help us not bottom out once Lenny, Milne and co. retire, but it is now highly unlikely that anyone like that (at least the "big free agency fish") will want to come to a club that is obviously rebuilding and years off playing in a GF again (especially if they refuse to pay them over $600K PA, as we apparently will, unless we change our strategy), so I think it is now going to be a relatively slow rebuild and will involve a pretty reasonable bottoming out and maybe 2-3 years down close to the bottom, because it's likely to be much harder to fill some of those gaps than it would have been had we remained in finals/flag contention, especially as we have the new policy of not paying anyone over $600K, or whatever.

 

[Ian Dunross]

...

I dare say most of them will have gotten their heads around it now and will be on board, as Scotty has probably finally mentioned the "r-word" to them and explained it clearly that we are now heading down that track, but I can certainly see how it would have been hard for them to take initially, as they are not robots, who aren't emotionally invested in a flag and so on.

I agree fully with this sentiment. These guys have been setting out to climb Everest only to be told a third of the way up that we'll have to try again in a few years, we don't have the equipment to reach the summit.

Takes some time for the older climbers to fully realise they're not going to get another shot at the summit. They may be a bit subdued for some weeks.

 

[Defacto]

I think the issue is that it was sort of dumped on them very suddenly in the end. One week it was probably all systems go for the finals and so on, with some of them talking of their belief that we could still win the flag, during preseason interviews and of course from Scotty's "juggernaut" comment of late last season (so obviously internally there were high hopes and expectations, hence throwing the kitchen sink at Mitch Brown, to fill the one gaping hole we had left), but then all of a sudden, after a couple of losses, Scotty starts saying that we're "rebuilding", to take a bit of pressure off, which he took to mean what we have been doing since he arrived (turning over half the list and introducing plenty of the younger ones), which he has said numerous times of late hasn't changed since he arrived, but which the media took to mean we're "rebuilding", as in the traditional AFL meaning, like what Melbourne and WB were doing (and what we're probably doing now that we weren't able to turn that early season form around) knowing that they were pretty much no chance of playing finals, let alone winning the flag.

So when the playing group started to hear that, I think they were very taken aback and wondering WTF?, because it's pretty clear that internally we were still aiming for finals at the very least at that point (as we should have been, having only missed out on the top 4 by 4 close losses last year- plus losing another couple of very close ones) and with Roo and Joey looking like being back to their best, Lenny in great shape, Steven ripping it up on the track, Siposs looking good, Hickey impressing on the track, etc), but then all of a sudden with no mention of it to them (Scotty has said repeatedly that he had never mentioned the word "rebuilding" to the playing group- so to hear him mention it to the media, rather than to them, probably came as a big shock) and I think that is where a lot of the problems in that regard started.

I think there would have been a lot of confusion around the club for that next couple of days (including at board level, from what we've heard suggested) and according to the media, he came out and clarified what his meaning of "rebuilding" was, over that next couple of days and that he considers all AFL clubs to be constantly "building/rebuilding" their lists and that we were not in fact "rebuilding" in the traditional sense (like a WB or Melbourne were), but were in fact "refreshing", like Geelong are and like Collingwood did, when he was there in 2010 (when they brought in a few of the younger ones at the expense of the likes of O'Bree and Josh Fraser and co. who could still play to a good level).

So I think there was just a lot of confusion when the "rebuild" word first slipped out, but we were still playing very much to win at that point (hence Blake and Jones playing and no sign of Wright, Murdoch, Saunders, etc) and we then beat GWS well and then the next week he came out and talked up how we were really primed for a big performance against Essendon, but we were flat and dispirited and then the axe was swung the following week and that was the first time we probably picked a team that gave us little chance of winning (against Sydney) because we had 5 playing who had played 2 games or less.

I'm still not convinced that we were properly "rebuilding" and had given up on the year by that point, (because by a few weeks later we were back to picking closer to our best available team) but I think that was more of a threat to the older group that "you had better pull your fingers out and perform, or we're going to go properly into "full rebuild mode" and your hopes of winning a flag with this club are done" and we put up a really strong performance that night and again the following week (against Collingwood), which I think prompted us to pick closer to our best team the next week against Carlton, to give this year one last crack (remembering that we got off to a similarly poor start in 2011, yet came home like a train to finish 6th) and we of course won that game and I think we were still hoping that we might be able to at least stay competitive, or maybe even make the finals, but after that dreadful 2nd half against Adelaide and then the loss to WB, I think we finally pulled the pin on this year and we are now, officially (although unofficially!) in "full-rebuild mode".

So I can definitely feel for the senior playing group, as they had gone into the season like every other year of the last 10 or so seasons, aiming for a flag, or at the very least finals, yet all of a sudden they are getting these mixed messages about which direction we are heading in and now we almost certainly find ourselves in "proper rebuild" mode and many of their hopes of a premiership in their career are gone (at least if they stay).

So they haven't really had a lot of time to digest the fact that the thing they had strived so hard and long for and which they got so tragically close to, two years in a row, was now never going to happen for them (at least as a group, at this club), so I think they are/were more going through a "grieving" process, much more than "sooking", as some have suggested.

A flag was just about all they dreamed of and focused on for years and years and one week they are still aiming for it and believing they can do it and then the next it's all over and we're "rebuilding" and I can see how that would be a hard thing to get your head around and to just accept immediately, especially with all that initial confusion.

I dare say most of them will have gotten their heads around it now and will be on board, as Scotty has probably finally mentioned the "r-word" to them and explained it clearly that we are now heading down that track, but I can certainly see how it would have been hard for them to take initially, as they are not robots, who aren't emotionally invested in a flag and so on.

how many times do people have to correct you before you stop posting this garbage. watters has not change his stance since the moment he came into the club (something squizzy has highlighted to you in the past), and to claim that the players were affected because of a misquote in the media is hilarious. based on what? do you have any evidence what so ever to back that up? or are you going off of BrianSpeaking "inside info" again

cant believe it took you 2 pages to write that, seriously

 

[Defacto]

I still think you wouldn't employ Chris if you weren't planning a refreshing of sorts?

I'd be very surprised if the board wasn't aware that our future had been heavily compromised in the focus on the 'now' and sought to rectify it by employing a football manager and a new senior coach who could develop kids.

The juggernaut reference was taken out of context by (surprise surprise) David King, who made a big fuss over the fact that Scott had promised the Saints would be one this year when he clearly didn't.

To be fair, we really shouldn't base our expectations on what David King says Scott Watters said, and at least own the fact he didn't promise anything of the sort.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...ch-scott-watters/story-e6frepex-1226452136568

"I won't compromise our performance standards, but I think St Kilda has the capacity in the next three to four years ... it should become a juggernaut.

great post!!!!! absolutely spot on. the issue is not that the players have potentially heard a misquote and have then dropped their form.

its that some of our supporters, some of which are on here, have read a misquote in the media and have started to criticize the senior coach. some are trying to come up with some convoluted theories that relates to player performance, with absolutely no evidence at all

 

[Ian Dunross]

how many times do people have to correct you before you stop posting this garbage. watters has not change his stance since the moment he came into the club (something squizzy has highlighted to you in the past), and to claim that the players were affected because of a misquote in the media is hilarious. based on what? do you have any evidence what so ever to back that up? or are you going off of BrianSpeaking "inside info" again

cant believe it took you 2 pages to write that, seriously

Couldn't disagree with you more. Lenny Hayes spoke about the changed message on Sunday. Why diss someone who you disagree with?

 

[Defacto]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Lenny Hayes spoke about the changed message on Sunday. Why diss someone who you disagree with?

really? what exactly did lenny say?

sorry if my post came off harsh but every week now there's a post from ARR criticizing the coach. its predictable and boring. especially when there is no evidence to support what he is saying. it was only 2-3 weeks ago where he was calling for scott to be sacked and replaced with mark williams.

would you like to see scott sacked? would you like to see him replaced with mark williams?