Hard calls

[Grendel]

Everitt, gifted footballer, lazy, 30. Need huge returns on him. Probably wont get it. Keep unless a decent trade is made.

Hay, solid FB who will be a capable defender maybe never quite as good as we hoped. Keep

Holland, if he cant mark he cant play and his shoulders are stuffed. Might be gone.

Tallis, good average player. Need for him to be pushed aside if we are to improve. Harsh but thats the reality if you want to succeed. Keep

Harford, gone.

Williams, play him or cut him. Wont ever know if not given a decent go. Wait and see, probably keep.

McCabe, good small defender, keep.

Johnson, gone.

Crawford, hmm.. if his interest is waning then trade and bleed short term for long term gain. Otherwise keep at all costs. But only if HE wants it.

Bateman, *sorry Matty* hasn't developed and skills let him down. Being pushed by others and could possibly get a decent third/fourth round pick where we might get someone with size. Trade.

Smith, keep unless offered a decent 2nd round or so pick.

Picioane, keep for short term centreman depth. Wouldnt get anything much in a trade and he can play if only he could get some endurance.

Hazzell. Gone

Hodge, keep unless there is something special and the first/second pick is offered in trade.

Ries, good footy brain, learning, will be a footballer. Keep.

Brennan, fingers crossed he matures a lot in the next 12 months. Looking shakey atm, keep.

Ladson, see Hodge scenario.

Dixon, keep unless a decent trade emerges from somewhere.

Rawlings, keep at all costs.

Vandenberg, see Tallis.

Thompson, trade if we can totally screw the team looking to get him. Huge call but we could get a huge return. Best bargining tool we have.

Cox, we should delist players like this. We wont.

Clarke, keep and try to develop as a tagger (shown promise in the role). Otherwise trade at the end of next season or delist.

Loats, keep on rookie list if allowed.

Barker, if OP strikes again, delist or trade. Otherwise pray we can get him fit again. Keep

Mitchell, keep and leave him run entire games in the middle.

Greene, keep for another season at least and hope he can fill out.

Elstone. Gone

Hunter... why....

Barlow, if he is cheap then keep. Otherwise try and get somebody to replace him a.s.a.p No trade value whatsoever.

Graham, might be gone.

A. Cox, never never never play as a defender. If played then wing/hff or gone. Probably gone

Boyle, promising indeed (YAY). Keep

Lekkas, good footballer, keep

Stone, gone

Campbell, keep and hope the improvement continues, best chance of which would be senior game time to learn.

Osborne, slow developer but promising, keep.

Veale, long term project, keep for at least one more season.

Kane, showing signs and good footy brain, keep.

So there is a dozen or so that I reckon should really think long and hard if they WANT a future at the HFC.

Otherwise if you dont perform to a level that will deliver success, then regardless of how much we as supporters might like them, if were to get anywhere as a football club these players are the most likely to be in the gun.

 

[Darky]

Originally posted by Grendel
Everitt, gifted footballer, lazy, 30. Need huge returns on him. Probably wont get it. Keep unless a decent trade is made.

I think the Hawks were spot on in drafting Everitt (and he recently turned 29 btw).

A side that finished top four in 2001, and has struggled with injury since, and has lost their #1 ruckman due to retirement.

Not too many changes to your best 22 since then, so it could be argued Hawthorn was a ruckman and possibly one midfielder away from being a serious premiership threat.

In hindsight, what has hurt Hawthorn the most is the trade of Croad to Fremantle. What I think made the Hawks so successful in 2001 was the set up of four mobile talls up forward, which not many defences could cover... and ANY of the four could be played elsewhere on the ground if need be. Trade Croad and you still have (theoretically) a strong set-up, but you can't forecast losing Thompson, Barker and Holland to extended periods of injury.

I'd rather have too many talls, than not enough.

 

[Sera]

Originally posted by Grendel
Bateman, *sorry Matty* hasn't developed and skills let him down. Being pushed by others and could possibly get a decent third/fourth round pick where we might get someone with size. Trade.

We'll give you a 3 round pick for him

 

[carn_the_nmfc]

This is a really harsh thread, Grendel.

The club is Low on CONFIDENCE and this thread will only make things worse for the club.

 

[Dimi]

goaldrush, Hawthorn's reality is harsh, no two ways about it..

and if the club's major worries are what their supporters are writing about in voicing their frustrations & opinions (which they are entitled to), then they have very serious issues...

 

[Goldenblue]

If the club wants to be honest, there needs a clean out of players. The best thing for the club is to start afresh and build up again over 2-3 years. I agree mostly with Grendle's list. I am sure there are players in other teams or youngsters that could the job a lot better than some of the guys on the list the Hawks have currently.

These guys you have now will never win a flag. Look for players that may be able to take you back into the top 8.

 

[Becker]

Originally posted by Grendel
Hunter... why....

I agree with this question. Each season we seem to pick up a player from another club who seemingly has run his race at AFL level, it seems like such a waste.

You can talk all you like about coaches, player attitudes, etc, but I believe the real problem at Hawthorn is our recruiting.

I look at players other clubs have recruited in the past 3-4 years and compare it to ours ... no contest.

It was so obvious this year we needed to recruit a couple of forwards, a small pacy crumbing forward and a marking one. Where are they?

 

[mattyc2422]

Re: Re: Hard calls

Originally posted by Sera
We'll give you a 3 round pick for him

Get stuffed.

 

[Ram-Man]

Grendel - good post, didn't agree with it all but everyone's got their own views.

I’ve separated the Hawthorn list into A, B, C class players (rated in my opinion) at their best.

A Class - Crawford, Everitt

B Class - Holland, Hay, Barker, Smith, Rawlings, Thompson,
Lekkas

C Class - Tallis, Harford, McCabe, Picioane, Dixon, Vandenburg,
S.Cox, Hunter, Barlow, Graham, A.Cox,

Give time - Osborne, Campbell, Brown, Hodge, Ries, Ladson,
Bateman, Lonie, Brennan, Mitchell, Greene, Boyle,
Veale, Kane.

Borderline – Johnson, Hazell,

Not good enough - Loats, Clarke, Williams, Stone,


Of the team that played Geelong – A class –2
B class - 6
C class - 6
Youth - 8

v Geelong: We can’t expect consistency out of the youth.
Of the C class one was great – Dixon
Of the B class four were serviceable – Holland, Smith, Rawlings, Lekkas
Of the A class one was serviceable – Crawford

Great performances from you’re A & B class players will start winning you games. The more A & B class players you have in your team match-day the more the chance of you have of winning games.

I’d suggest almost every team in the comp leads us in A & B class players. So I’m afraid that until we put faith in the youth and play them on a regular basis - so that they are given the chance to become A & B Class - we will lose more than we win.

Of the youth that named I believe all of them have the potential of being A or B class players. The down side is that very few will play in a key position.

Drafting will be pretty important come seasons end.

 

[Grendel]

It was meant as a really bottom line blunt assesment of what were are currently getting and what we can expect to get from the list.

Very much meant as I said, harsh calls.

Most of them are or could be capable of better but perhaps not with us. Team balance, best player for best position, more expeirienced team-mates around them etc.

We have way to many small centremen. Not enough KP quality, probably to many small defenders, no small forwards and a fair few running types that might be able to break lines if they had a better support structure around them.

Clean out is needed desperatly, probably of some halfway decent footballers too who just happen to be surplus to what we need but might be okay and worth something to another club or two in the league.

Liked your list Ram-man only right now I'm sad to say I wouldnt class either Everitt or Crawford as 'A' list. Not on current form.. B+ maybe (okay.. A minus then but thats the best I can do)!

 

[Grimace]

what are your thoughts on Campbell Brown, Grendal?

 

[Tonka]

Hawthorn list by the year born

1973 Graham, Barlow
1974 Crawford, Everitt, Holland
1975 Barker, Hunter, Tallis
1976 Lekkas, McCabe
1977 S.Cox, Dixon, Harford, Rawlings, Smith, Vandenberg
1978 Thompson
1979 Hay
1980 A.Cox, Picioane
1981 Bateman, Johnson, Loats, Hazell, Stone
1982 Campbell, Clarke, Greene, Mitchell, Ries, Osborne
1983 Brown, Elstone, Williams, Lonie, Kane, Davies
1984 Boyle, Hodge, Ladson, Sewell
1985 Brennan, Veale

The group of players from 1973-1977 were supposed make for a quality team. They won't.
Holland, Graham, McCabe and Harford are finished and Tallis, S.Cox, Barlow, Hunter and Vandenberg are very ordinary players.

The group from 1980-1982 was supposed to finish off the quality team. They are as a group, no good.
A.Cox, Johnson, Stone and Picioane are gone and Clarke should be too. Greene, Campbell and Loats are ordinary.
Mitchell and Ries are too slow.

It is the group from 1983-1984 that represent Hawthorn's chance. Hodge, Brown and Ladson are quality. Lonie and Kane are not stars but are valuable because they are quick, tall and break lines with long accurate kicks. Sewell and Boyle show some promise at Box Hill.

It's time for this club to take action.

1. If Chris Judd comes to Victoria he must come to Hawthorn. A midfield could be built around a class of 83/84 with Judd and Hodge, Ladson, Lonie, Brown and Kane.

2. Apart from this, we must get every top draft pick we can get over the next 2-3 years so we can have near enough to the best class of 85/86/87.

We have plenty of good players that because of a lack of support will never win us a flag. If the opportunity presents we must trade them like StKilda did with Hall and Everitt. Forget about drafting for current needs.

This is what the system demands we do if we want to win a flag.

Remember, some team that sat at the bottom of the ladder collecting draft picks or one that gets lucky and gets a couple of champions with the father/son rule will always have an advantage.

We have to create our own advantage. ALL the eggs must go in the one basket with our young players.

 

[Grendel]

Oops, missed Brown somehow!! Think he is a gung-ho little goer that might develop into a class A tagging type either down back or in the Chick mould as a 'defensive' forward (if you know what I mean).

Good post Tonka, agree for the most part. It is that missing middle tier of players that has hurt and continues to play a large role in the leaderless stakes (imo). Worse still is the trades we have tried to make to 'bridge' the gap. Washed up footballers who either werent good enough (Dent, Hunter, Rehn) or maybe had some talent but whose heart and application BIG question marks (S.Cox.. DENT... Everitt) over them.

That has quite simply been the death knell for current success for this club.

There isnt anything wrong with trading providing you do it with smarts. Collingwood and Clement, Richmond and Cameron. Small outlay, big returns. We havent had that type of result since the days of Russell Greene.

We just have to get smarter in all departments. Sounds easy enough on paper, the application and who comes in to do it will be where the interest will be.

 

[Darky]

If your oldest players are 30 this year, and neither is a certainty to be at the club next year, I think you can say your rebuilding has officially started.

It looks like quite a young list, and with a bit more astute drafting & trading it's one that can learn a fair bit from blokes like Crawford, Lekkas, Rawlings, Smith etc who probably have a good 5 years left in them.

If the dead wood can be cleared out at the rate of about 7-8 players a year, the future will look good sooner rather than later.

Rebuilds don't work when you have an established set of players of one type, and a shortfall in another.

Hawthorn had a great collection of KPPs a couple of years ago, but was a bit short in midfield. Trades, injuries & form have taken their toll and there's the chance to do a bit of a cleanout and start from scratch.

Good players remain good players so you keep your top guns, but by starting to draft for every position at the same time, theoretically they will all mature and gel together at the same time, and you'll have a group that plays together for 10 years like North did in the 90s, and like Brisbane are doing now.

 

[mattyc2422]

Originally posted by Darky
Hawthorn had a great collection of KPPs a couple of years ago, but was a bit short in midfield. Trades, injuries & form have taken their toll

Which reminds me, I'm still bitter we drafted Simon "Shirking" Cox ahead of John Baird.