Research Help with 1909 VFA Final Teams...please

[Michael Riley]

Does anyone happen to have a list of VFA grand final teams from the early years
I have read through a number of newspaper articles and sketched out the players but it is pretty general at the moment

I have been going through the old VFA grand finals and some interesting names pop up. For example Albert Pannam from Collingwood applied to transfer to Preston, but was unsuccessful, but then did transfer to Prahran.

Brunswick
Stewart (back)
Leo Leeds Bak

'Doc' Mills Wng
O'Shea Wng
Joe Johnson ctre

Allan Thompson (in for Dookie McKenzie)

Henry Chase
Bill HEAPHY - Ex Essendon
Les Abbott
Thompson

Fred Stancliffe Fol
Turnbull Ruck
Everett Ruck
H. Braid rov (with marsh
Marsh Rov



Prahran
Jack Dowding fb
Wilson (Back and following (instead of Wright)

Alphonse Woods (Captain) HB line
Carlson HB
Kirchner - hb line

Clarrie Hall (one of the old players) Wng - also richmond
Jim Conquest Wng - also melbourne
Francis Dowsing Ctr

Farmer Fwd
Watt Fwd
Sydney Sykes Fwd - ex Soth Melb

Albert Pannam Rov(ex Collingwood)
White
Gillespie
Stewart
Ryan
Collison


Post Games
THE ASSOCIATION FINAL. (1909, October 2). Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918), p. 18.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197073552

FOOTBALL. (1909, October 1). The Coburg Leader (Vic. : 1890 - 1913), p. 3.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66825235

Football. (1909, October 2). Malvern Standard (Vic. : 1906 - 1931), p. 3.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66385327

ASSOCIATION GRAND FINAL. (1909, September 27). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 11. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198486581
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198486581

FOOTBALL. (1909, October 1). The Coburg Leader (Vic. : 1890 - 1913), p. 3. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66825235
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66825235

ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL. (1909, September 27). The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957), p. 5. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10736607
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10736607

ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL. (1909, September 27). The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957), p. 5. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10736607

 

[35Daicos]

The Australasian has a decent match report, but (while I only had a quick look) Pears (Brunswick) is the only name I spotted that you didn't have:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139687261

Les Abbott (Brunswick) would almost certainly be the player who appeared for 5 VFL clubs: Collingwood, Carlton, Richmond, Melbourne and South Melbourne, as well as for Port Melbourne, Brunswick and North Melbourne in the Association.

Joe Johnson played for Fitzroy, and is credited with being the VFL's first aboriginal player.

 

[35Daicos]

In case you haven't seen it, there's a nice photo of the two captains prior to the game here:- http://www.hardballget.net/vfa-grand-finals-1903-1924.html

It's from Leader (same edition you provided a link to):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/21509099

The team photo of the Premiership-winning Brunswick team you have on this page includes the players' names (though they aren't identified):- http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Brunswick+Team+Photos

 

[35Daicos]

This has L. and H. Braid in the best players for Brunswick:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/10112858

Apparently the only change made from the previous game's lineup was Thompson in for the unavailable McKenzie. Dunstan played the week before according to the same paper, so should have been in the GF side:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/109075705

If L. Braid, Dunstan and Pears were added to the list of names you have, that would make 18 players. Were they just 17-man teams, without a reserve?
Edit: I see you have Thompson named twice BTW.

Team selection discussion can be found here:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10736042

Edit: L. Braid and Dunstan are both mentioned in The Age match report on the Monday following the game.

Alex Dunstan played for Collingwood but moved to Brunswick during the 1909 season, so this should be him:- http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/alex-dunstan/

 

[35Daicos]

The Argus from the day of the match shows the expected (placed) lineups:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10736342

Of course McKenzie was a late withdrawal for Brunswick. There's no mention of Stewart for that club, but Gillespie * is named. I see you have a Stewart also for Prahran, as well as Gillespie. Parsons is named in the team for Prahran.

* This would be Dave Gillespie, who played a few games for Carlton, before joining Brunswick. He met a grim fate during the First World War:- http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Dave Gillespie

Fred Stancliffe played for Collingwood (1905-07), presumably it's the same chap playing in this game for Brunswick. Fred O'Shea played at Essendon (1910-12) and was a 1911 Premiership player. The Encyclopedia Of AFL Footballers calls him "An ex-Brunswick wingman". Ernest (Ernie) Everett played for Fitzroy in 1911, being ex-Brunswick according to the same book, so most likely him.

Brunswick's Turnbull is probably this fellow, who played for St Kilda, as well as Brighton and Prahran in the Association, and even umpired a VFL game, at least according to Wikipedia:- https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Fred_Turnbull_(Australian_footballer)

Jack Dowding played for St Kilda (1903-05), and "later became a VFA champion with Prahran", according to 'The Encyclopedia'. Albert Kirchner played for South Melbourne in 1910, having transferred from Prahran that year. Farmer should be Horrie Farmer, who played for St Kilda (1904, 1907-08), and "later starred as a forward for Prahran in the VFA." according to the aforementioned book.

 

[the croucher]

<snip> Farmer should be Horrie Farmer, who played for St Kilda (1904, 1907-08), and "later starred as a forward for Prahran in the VFA." according to the aforementioned book.

Yes, this early season piece from 1909 confirms that it is H Farmer
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144520622

 

[Michael Riley]

Thanks you both. I can add a few more names for Brunswick

The two Leo's - Braid and Leeds, who were on the` sick list,-; are 'again fit and well
Harry Braid is little: but good
Harry Pears is in his'best Collingwood form
Fred O'Shea and Fish'er who`did not play in the last match" against the Dons; will be in to-day's team
Coburg Leader 22-Aug-1908, p. 3. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66823756

At Brunswick the whole of last season's ham will he available, with the exception of George Marsh, who.lms retired from the game.
Age 4-Apr-1913, p. 11. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199434470

 

[Michael Riley]

Prahran had a scandal (probably betting), and dropped 4 players for the game, Wright was also injured.
I am also missing one player.
I have roughly placed the players into an 18, but it is 'illustrative' and in no way actual

Whatt's is possibly Johnny Watts Stkilda


Out:
Bennison, Haighblom, Julian, Rourke (Playing Poorly, gambling scandal)
(Wright inj)

Jack Julian (ex StKilda) capt
"PRAHRAN FOOTBALL TROUBLE" The Age 27 September 1909: 11. <http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198486477>.
"THE FOOTBALL SEASON." The Age 11 September 1909: 14. 6 <http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198473743>.

 

[35Daicos]

I posted this up the page a bit: The Argus from the day of the match shows the expected (placed) lineups:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10736342

Take McKenzie out for Brunswick, of course, and replace him with Allan Thompson. I'm not sure how the lineup would have been placed after that change.
Fred O'Shea also got a mention ^, he was an Essendon (VFL) Premiership player. Parsons is named in the team for Prahran. I don't think I've seen him mentioned elsewhere but presumably he played. They were 17-man teams, I don't think there was a reserve/substitute.

Harrie Parsons played for St Kilda in 1906 and 1908, it may well have been him.

 

[35Daicos]

I thought Pears may have been the 2-time Collingwood Premiership player [Harry (Henry) Pears] but wasn't sure. I think the fact that he's named at full back in the team yet often played as a rover for Collingwood talked me out of it! Perhaps the lineup in the paper is not too reliable? The poor man died a couple of years later while playing for Port Melbourne:- Henry Pears, formerly a well-known footballer, whilst playing in a match between Port Melbourne and Collingwood, died suddenly this afternoon. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/79892002

I somehow missed Johnny Watts. 'The Encyclopedia' confirms that he played with Prahran. It should be the George Marsh who played for Collingwood in 1905, but I'm not positive. He was at some stage captain-coach of Coburg according to a post elsewhere.

 

[35Daicos]

I see you have Leo Leeds for Brunswick. William (Billy) Leeds played for Carlton (1903-05). He was from Brunswick according to the oft-mentioned book. He also umpired a VFL game.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/B/Billy_Leeds.html
http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Billy+Leeds

A Coburg Leader (1909) article about Brunswick Footballers' Cricket Club mentions W. Leeds:- https://www.myheritage.com/research...sep-17-1909?itemId=29644187&action=showRecord

Edit: W. Leeds was cleared from Carlton to Brunswick in June 1906 so it's most likely him in the team a few years later:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66893238

 

[35Daicos]

This has W. Stewart in the Prahran team (in 1909):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66384851
So there may have been another Stewart at the club that year, but it's probably William in the team. He played for St Kilda, and represented Victoria, and "was a talented half-back". He's named in the lineup at centre-half-back.

He tried (and failed) to get a clearance from St Kilda here:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10716128

The book has William (Billy) Stewart, who played for St Kilda (1905-09), and says "Stewart was cleared to Prahran in the VFA a couple of weeks later."

He's somewhat infamous because of this!:- This game was incontestably a St Kilda win on the field, but a protest from Geelong led to the four points being awarded to the Pivotonians.

Heading into this match, Geelong was tenth, with just one win from the first five games. St Kilda sat ninth, also with one win, but superior percentage. At Corio Oval, the game was filled with “intense excitement” before St Kilda “snapped the victory on the call of time” to win by a point.

Geelong was bitter at the result, but they saw something that could lead to them gaining four much-needed points. Billy Stewart had played for St Kilda on the day, but had played in a match under the watch of the Bendigo association earlier that week. Crucially to Geelong’s argument, he had been suspended for striking, which left him ineligible to play.

The Argus of Thursday, June 10, said:

"In the match, Geelong v. St. Kilda, last Saturday, the St. Kilda club played W. Stewart, who had, it is alleged, been disqualified by the Bendigo association. The St. Kilda club won the match by one point, and Geelong has lodged a protest on the ground that Stewart was not eligible to play. The matter will be dealt with to-morrow evening."

http://australianfootball.com/articles/view/Bizarre+games+from+history+-+Result+overturned+on+protest+%28Geelong+v+St+Kilda%2C+1909%29/2139

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks you both. I can add a few more names for Brunswick

The two Leo's - Braid and Leeds, who were on the` sick list,-; are 'again fit and well

Lee Braid played first-class cricket for Victoria, and it looks very likely that he was the Brunswick footballer.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/4384.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/67424636
There were quite a number of cricket enthusiasts from Brunswick and Coburg at the interstate matches especially the one between Victoria and
South Australia which proved far more interesting than the fixture with the Northern State. Brunswickers felt disappointed that Lee Braid did not get a show in the second match only achieving the dignity of twelfth man

 

[35Daicos]

This says H. Parsons went from St Kilda to Prahran in 1909, so it should be Harrie/Harry Parsons:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144515669/17010279
'The Encyclopedia' calls him Harrie, as does AustralianFootball.com.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/H/Harry_Parsons.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Harrie+Parsons/2171

You have Francis Dowsing for Prahran. The same newspaper article ^ has A. Dowsing going from South Melbourne to Prahran in 1909. Alf Dowsing played for South (1900-1902):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alf_Dowsing.html

I presume it's the same person, but you have to wonder what he was doing from 1903-1908! The book has him as F. A. E. "Alf" Dowsing, so probably the F stands for Francis.

 

[35Daicos]

Prahran's Alphonse Wood(s) gets called Woods quite often but many sources have his surname as Wood. 'The Encyclopedia' calls him Phonse Wood. He ran a tobacconist/hairdressing business in Prahran, advertisements for it named him Phonso Wood.

AFL Tables has Phonse Wood as having played for South Melbourne (1907-08):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Phonse_Wood.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Phonse+Wood/2302

He transferred from South Melbourne to Prahran in 1909 (as A. F. Wood):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196120709

The same article has F. Turnbull going from Richmond to Brunswick (though he never played for the Tigers I think it may have been him who later played for St Kilda) and D. Gillespie from Carlton to Brunswick.

 

[Harry Hook]

I have the complete teams and story with the positions played.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189124460

 

[the croucher]

This says H. Parsons went from St Kilda to Prahran in 1909, so it should be Harrie/Harry Parsons:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144515669/17010279
'The Encyclopedia' calls him Harrie, as does AustralianFootball.com.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/H/Harry_Parsons.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Harrie+Parsons/2171

You have Francis Dowsing for Prahran. The same newspaper article ^ has A. Dowsing going from South Melbourne to Prahran in 1909. Alf Dowsing played for South (1900-1902):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alf_Dowsing.html

I presume it's the same person, but you have to wonder what he was doing from 1903-1908! The book has him as F. A. E. "Alf" Dowsing, so probably the F stands for Francis.

Going by information on Ancestry and via the official BDM's page for Victoria:
Francis Alfred Ernest Dowsing was born in South Australia on 10 Nov 1882
and death registered in the Fairfield district of Victoria in 1963.

 

[35Daicos]

I have the complete teams and story with the positions played.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189124460

Excellent find!

 

[GenCampbell]

In case you haven't seen it, there's a nice photo of the two captains prior to the game here:- http://www.hardballget.net/vfa-grand-finals-1903-1924.html

It's from Leader (same edition you provided a link to):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/21509099

The team photo of the Premiership-winning Brunswick team you have on this page includes the players' names (though they aren't identified):- http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Brunswick+Team+Photos

 

[GenCampbell]

Thanks so much for the link to the team photo of the Brunswick Premiership team. This provided me with a previously unviewed photo of my grandfather, Leo Leeds, younger brother of Billy Leeds. Thanks again. Gen Campbell nee Leeds