Hitchens on Moore

[noodnuts]

moore is a smart media operator who knows how to work the system and make money.

he's just preaching to the converted....... spotty, pre-pubescent undergraduates who hate dubya. these ppl dont care about the truth, they just want to hear nasty things being said about bush which reinforces their prejudices.

moore is simply pushing the right buttons and giving this crowd what it wants to hear. his films are mockumentaries, not genuine documentaries.

it would be like saying that spinal tap was a genuine view of the music industry.

i saw him on letterman and he said he would debate any republican any time any place, obviously not since he refuses to debate this hitchens chap.

he is a bloated blimp, full of hot air, fair dinkum he looks like a refugee from super size me........in fact he looks like he ate the whole film!!!

how can anyone take this grotesquely obese monstrosity seriously?? i mean to say, how much common senes and intelligence can he have to let himself get into this shape?? and he expects the world to listen to his propaganda......... before i take you seriously moore, down size yourself.

 

[afc9798]

Originally posted by noodnuts
moore is a smart media operator who knows how to work the system and make money.

he's just preaching to the converted....... spotty, pre-pubescent undergraduates who hate dubya. these ppl dont care about the truth, they just want to hear nasty things being said about bush which reinforces their prejudices.

moore is simply pushing the right buttons and giving this crowd what it wants to hear. his films are mockumentaries, not genuine documentaries.

it would be like saying that spinal tap was a genuine view of the music industry.

i saw him on letterman and he said he would debate any republican any time any place, obviously not since he refuses to debate this hitchens chap.

he is a bloated blimp, full of hot air, fair dinkum he looks like a refugee from super size me........in fact he looks like he ate the whole film!!!

how can anyone take this grotesquely obese monstrosity seriously?? i mean to say, how much common senes and intelligence can he have to let himself get into this shape?? and he expects the world to listen to his propaganda......... before i take you seriously moore, down size yourself.

Did you ever think that part of his appeal is that he looks like the average overweight suburbanite, rather than a slick, polished guy in a suit? His appearance is all part of the sell and he takes the p.ss out of his own appearance on numerous occasions.

This makes it very easy to demonise the slick guys in suits (which many of the targets deserve), despite the fact he is a multimillionaire himself.

I think you'd be surprised at who turns up to see Michael Moore films. Incidentally, I doubt you would take him seriously regardless of how he looked, so why bother even mentioning it.

 

[1jasonoz]

Originally posted by noodnuts

these ppl dont care about the truth, they just want to hear nasty things being said about bush which reinforces their prejudices.

You mean people who post things like this;

how can anyone take this grotesquely obese monstrosity seriously?? i mean to say, how much common senes and intelligence can he have to let himself get into this shape?? and he expects the world to listen to his propaganda......... before i take you seriously moore, down size yourself.

Yes i know what you mean then hey .

 

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by noodnuts
pre-pubescent undergraduates

Say again?

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by Lennyfan
Guru Jane......

I am curious about what you personally subscribe as being in the 'pseudo left' and the 'real left'.....

not looking for a fight, just currently reading 1984 and enjoying what it opens up in my mind about both the right and left of politics.....

Clocked this. Will reply when work allows me to exercise my brain cells. Probly not til weekend.

In meantime enjoy 1984 ... have you read Animal Farm?

 

[Subliminal]

I don't know why somebody would go to see a Moore film. They know exactly what they are going to see and have heard it all before. Either they are left wingers who want to get one liners to use against conservatives in arguments, or they are conservatives who want to know what they are up against in order to come up with counter-arguments. In either case, both are wasting thier time and money.


BTW, It's hard to take somebody seriously when they are railing against the excess of capitalism and yet they themselves weigh 200 kg's

 

[1jasonoz]

Originally posted by Subliminal


BTW, It's hard to take somebody seriously when they are railing against the excess of capitalism and yet they themselves weigh 200 kg's

So anybody overweight shouldn't have an opinion that should be taken seriously? What about people with freckles, who do you dram the lline at? What about only those that agree with your blinkered views, and anybody who doesn't agree with your views, should not be heard because of their physical features. Thats what you want now isn't it.

We just had a protest about refugees over here in Perth. Well a picture was taken that showed a young lady who had Asian features at the rally. A brain dead Right winger wrote an article to the paper stating that this woman shouldn't be protesting against the plight of the refugees, and that she should actually thank the government for letting her live here. Well friends and family replied to this idiots letter to the editor, with the fact that this womans grandfather had come to Australia back just before the first world war, had fought in the war for Australia, and that she was a 3rd generation Aussie. If some of you brain dead right wingers actually engaged your brains before you engaged your mouths, this sort of racism wouldn't occur.

 

[Weaver]

Originally posted by Subliminal
BTW, It's hard to take somebody seriously when they are railing against the excess of capitalism and yet they themselves weigh 200 kg's

Not as hard as it is to take someone seriously who offers this sort of arguement.

 

[Tim56]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by GuruJane
Clocked this. Will reply when work allows me to exercise my brain cells. Probly not til weekend.

In meantime enjoy 1984 ... have you read Animal Farm?

Year 10 English.

I recently picked up a complete set of his novels, now I am looking for a collection of his essays. Is there one you'd particularly recommend?

 

[Angry Dragon]

Moore's films are tinged with a great sense of humour as well. I've always thought that the right wingers dont have a sense of humour.

 

[MightyFighting]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by Tim56
Year 10 English.

I recently picked up a complete set of his novels, now I am looking for a collection of his essays. Is there one you'd particularly recommend?

Conservatives with Orwell are like Christians with the bible; they'll treat his work like gospel if and when it agrees with what they already think. Otherwise, they ignore it completely.

 

[Tim56]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by MightyFighting
Conservatives with Orwell are like Christians with the bible; they'll treat his work like gospel if and when it agrees with what they already think. Otherwise, they ignore it completely.

See, I can respect his other stuff, but some of the things he suggested, like Britain needing a socialist economy to win World War 2, are blatantly false. Other claims of his have been outdated by revelations of the last 60 or so years. Still, most of his ideas deserve thought, rather than dismissal. Books like 1984, Animal Farm, and many of his essays have a universal quality, and go above politics.

To appreciate the quality of a writer you do not need to agree with everything they say.

 

[Tim56]

Double

 

[Lennyfan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by GuruJane
Clocked this. Will reply when work allows me to exercise my brain cells. Probly not til weekend.

In meantime enjoy 1984 ... have you read Animal Farm?

I enjoyed it and didn't if that makes sense.... it was made me scared of all sides of politics to be honest....

I can see that when those with power minipulate the common people and re-write history (both sides of politics have been argued to have done and will continue to do) was chilling......

Personally I have been brought up to believe in the collective state creating a minimum level for it's people.... but I can appriciate the liberal powers our citizins have within our democracy

when the majority says that 2 + 2 = 5, freedom is the ability to say 2 + 2 = 4

It was a very interesting book and will read animal farm now....

another curious one for me was what makes up our memory....

 

[MGREG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by Lennyfan
I enjoyed it and didn't if that makes sense.... it was made me scared of all sides of politics to be honest....

I can see that when those with power minipulate the common people and re-write history (both sides of politics have been argued to have done and will continue to do) was chilling......

Personally I have been brought up to believe in the collective state creating a minimum level for it's people.... but I can appriciate the liberal powers our citizins have within our democracy

when the majority says that 2 + 2 = 5, freedom is the ability to say 2 + 2 = 4

It was a very interesting book and will read animal farm now....

another curious one for me was what makes up our memory....

Animal Farm is the one to read for sure.

 

[Subliminal]

Originally posted by 1jasonoz
So anybody overweight shouldn't have an opinion that should be taken seriously? What about people with freckles, who do you dram the lline at? What about only those that agree with your blinkered views, and anybody who doesn't agree with your views, should not be heard because of their physical features. Thats what you want now isn't it.

We just had a protest about refugees over here in Perth. Well a picture was taken that showed a young lady who had Asian features at the rally. A brain dead Right winger wrote an article to the paper stating that this woman shouldn't be protesting against the plight of the refugees, and that she should actually thank the government for letting her live here. Well friends and family replied to this idiots letter to the editor, with the fact that this womans grandfather had come to Australia back just before the first world war, had fought in the war for Australia, and that she was a 3rd generation Aussie. If some of you brain dead right wingers actually engaged your brains before you engaged your mouths, this sort of racism wouldn't occur.

First of all, I am not right wing. I'm a diehard Labor supporter and was most certainly against the War in Iraq. And my statement had nothing to do with race or something Moore can't control numbnuts. Nobody has the right to complain about excess when they themselves are total fat asses.

That said, I agree with most of what he says, but the man is a joke, as are you. You come up with this race crap out of nowhere like you are making some grand statement. Your arguments had absolutely no parallel to my post.

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by Lennyfan
Guru Jane......

I am curious about what you personally subscribe as being in the 'pseudo left' and the 'real left'.....

not looking for a fight, just currently reading 1984 and enjoying what it opens up in my mind about both the right and left of politics.....

A summary of the main points of difference:

A real Leftist is reformist and radical.

A pseudo Leftist is reactionary.

A real Leftist sees FASCISM whether of the right (German national socialism) or the Left (Stalinism) or of religion (Islamofascism) as the true enemy that must be confronted at all times.

A pseudo leftist only OPPOSES FASCISM in the wider context of anti-Americanism. For eg: East Timor, good ... Iraq, bad.

A real Leftist is always looking far ahead and accepts Marx's proposition that Capitalism must run its course to the fullest extent before it in turn will be overthrown by workers control.
Real Lefists do not just feel, they also think

A pseudo Leftist can't get beyond moment-to-moment kneejerk anti globalisation, anti Americanism. The pseudo Leftist feels but does not think .

A real Leftist would die before lining up on the same side as the Far Right, racists, blatant judeophobes, religious fundamentalists etc.

The pseudo Leftist Has no problems about getting into bed with the above. In the US the pseuds line up with the racist, far right Pat Buchanan. In the UK they formed a political party with them (!) to stand for the Eur elections.

Yes, the pseudo left in Britain actually stood on the same platform in a JOINT party as extreme Muslim fundamentalist groups and ACCEPTED their homophobic and mysogonistic agendas.

The capacity for self delusion and hypocrisy has no depths for the genuine Pseud!

 

[1jasonoz]

Originally posted by Subliminal
First of all, I am not right wing. I'm a diehard Labor supporter and was most certainly against the War in Iraq. And my statement had nothing to do with race or something Moore can't control numbnuts. Nobody has the right to complain about excess when they themselves are total fat asses.

That said, I agree with most of what he says, but the man is a joke, as are you. You come up with this race crap out of nowhere like you are making some grand statement. Your arguments had absolutely no parallel to my post.

So you didn't say this stupid;

BTW, It's hard to take somebody seriously when they are railing against the excess of capitalism and yet they themselves weigh 200 kg's

You are a fool who's been caught out. A Labor supporter try again fool, your just another right wing braindead racist, who has been caught out, playing the man, as the subject doesn't agree with you. Goodbye and good riddens.

 

[Subliminal]

Originally posted by 1jasonoz
So you didn't say this stupid;



You are a fool who's been caught out. A Labor supporter try again fool, your just another right wing braindead racist, who has been caught out, playing the man, as the subject doesn't agree with you. Goodbye and good riddens.

Again I will ask you this, where did I mention race in my statement? The guy complains about the system that leaves many hungry, yet he himself can't stop eating. I would like to see how much he has given to charity. People like you give the left a bad name. You sit around talking about how bad the right is, but chances are you have never lifted a finger to help your fellow man. I went out and protested the war, where were you? You were sitting on your ass complaining.

 

[MightyFighting]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by GuruJane
A real Leftist is always looking far ahead and accepts Marx's proposition that Capitalism must run its course to the fullest extent before it in turn will be overthrown by workers control.
Real Lefists do not just feel, they also think

Wait a minute... You actually believe in a future Marxist utopia? Will we all live in muchroom houses, or will we just smoke them?

 

[1jasonoz]

Again I will ask you this, where did I mention race in my statement? The guy complains about the system that leaves many hungry, yet he himself can't stop eating.

Who says Moore is overweight because of overeating, you? Have you ever heard of medical conditions that cause it? You judges the bloke on his apperances, thats weak hearted and i can see why you did it. You straight away played the man, and not the subject. You summarised your entire post about him with the fact that he is overweight and shouldn't be taken seriously. Get a brain stupid.

People like you give the left a bad name. You sit around talking about how bad the right is, but chances are you have never lifted a finger to help your fellow man. I went out and protested the war, where were you? You were sitting on your ass complaining.

First of all your a 16 year old student, and have ALOT to learn. I was protesting back when you were still i nappies. Remember the 1st Gulf war, you were what 2 back then? Ive been in more protest rallies than you could dream about, Ive been told by cops that if i didn't move, id be charged by them, and that i could then be sued under sections 42D & E(you do no what they are don't you, being a long time protestor and all). The differance between you and me, is the fact that i don't use a persons physical features as a point of argument. As i said before thats weak hearted, and a sign that you have lost the debate.

 

[Subliminal]

Ok, I say he's fat so that makes me a right wing racist. I accept that.

You seriously protested against the 1st Gulf War? What was your reasoning for that one? Saddam invaded a peaceful neighbor. In this war Iraq hadn't done anything, but to say that that war was unjustified is ludicrous.

 

[Lennyfan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by GuruJane
A summary of the main points of difference:

A real Leftist is reformist and radical.

A pseudo Leftist is reactionary.

A real Leftist sees FASCISM whether of the right (German national socialism) or the Left (Stalinism) or of religion (Islamofascism) as the true enemy that must be confronted at all times.

A pseudo leftist only OPPOSES FASCISM in the wider context of anti-Americanism. For eg: East Timor, good ... Iraq, bad.

A real Leftist is always looking far ahead and accepts Marx's proposition that Capitalism must run its course to the fullest extent before it in turn will be overthrown by workers control.
Real Lefists do not just feel, they also think

A pseudo Leftist can't get beyond moment-to-moment kneejerk anti globalisation, anti Americanism. The pseudo Leftist feels but does not think .

A real Leftist would die before lining up on the same side as the Far Right, racists, blatant judeophobes, religious fundamentalists etc.

The pseudo Leftist Has no problems about getting into bed with the above. In the US the pseuds line up with the racist, far right Pat Buchanan. In the UK they formed a political party with them (!) to stand for the Eur elections.

Yes, the pseudo left in Britain actually stood on the same platform in a JOINT party as extreme Muslim fundamentalist groups and ACCEPTED their homophobic and mysogonistic agendas.

The capacity for self delusion and hypocrisy has no depths for the genuine Pseud!

Thankyou

GuruJane.....

what are you if you believe that the war in Iraq was wrong because:

1 - It was against international law (I really believe in international law), it breaks down everything that the free world has worked to in the past 50 years

2 - because there are many terrible regimes around the world which will never be touched, let alone invaded..... I read about burma, china etc. and i fustrates that the Us and it's allies.. yes us, pick and choose.....

3 - because they changed the goal posts.... you just don't do that with thousands of innocent lives.....

I am all for trying to create democracy in areas that will embrace it, pressure regimes into being changed by their people....

but................ this is not the case with Iraq......

I don't like the look of either side of politics right now....

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Like your post. Have made some comments on your points then answer your question at the end ...

Originally posted by Lennyfan
Thankyou

GuruJane.....

what are you if you believe that the war in Iraq was wrong because:

1 - It was against international law (I really believe in international law), it breaks down everything that the free world has worked to in the past 50 years

I didn't believe the war was wrong. I believed it was right.
I believed the fascist regime of Saddam and the Baathists should have been removed after the Gulf War, if not earlier.

I CERTAINLY do NOT believe it was "against international law".

This is a pseudo Left myth, imo.

2 - because there are many terrible regimes around the world which will never be touched, let alone invaded..... I read about burma, china etc. and i fustrates that the Us and it's allies.. yes us, pick and choose.....

Well they can't do everything at once, can they? Pre-emptive intervening by outright war as they did in Iraq is a NEW policy for the US that came out of the 9/11 attacks.

Personally I think (as have posted on the Dan Warna's Saudi Arabia thread) that the UN should be much more pro-active in getting rid of repressive, fascist regimes by refusing them membership in the UN.

What do you think about that?

3 - because they changed the goal posts.... you just don't do that with thousands of innocent lives.....

No. The goalposts were changed as far as the US was concerned by the attack on American mainland on 9/11.

I also believed it was changed for all of us in that by their actions and expressed beliefs the Islamofascists declared war on liberal democracy. And that is us. All of us who live in liberal democracies.

I am all for trying to create democracy in areas that will embrace it, pressure regimes into being changed by their people....

but................ this is not the case with Iraq......

Do you really believe the Iraqis themselves could have overthrown this vile and vicious and FASCIST regime?

Never an option since the US and Brits failed to protect the Shiites and Kurds in their uprising after the Gulf War. To the eternal shame of US/Brits at that time, imo. But I can't recall the pseuds (who'd opposed the Gulf War) making a fuss about it at the time. Do you?

As a result, from their perceived weakness the US gave heart to OBL and his fascists and that emboldened them to plan the series of attacks in the 90s on the World Trade Centre and other US targets (and also attempting to assassinate Bush Senior!) which finally culminated in the 9/11 attack.

So that's why US/Brits had to fight another war to finally get rid of Saddam's FASCIST regime because post 9/11 they could not risk Saddam passing on wmd technology to OBL's Islamofascists.

Everything else is just debating points.

As we now see, the fascists of course are still fighting them, egged on by the pseuds. We see it on this board all the time from Dan Warna and others.

The war was horrible in the sense that you have a big powerful country like the US raining down cruise missiles on a country that is defenceless against that kind of attack.

But the civilian casualties, while horrible in themselves, turned out to be miniscule compared to what the pseuds predicted before the war.

And where are we now a year later?

The Iraqis finally are about to have sovereignity and an interim government.

They now have freedom of information - for the first time Iraqis are allowed to access the net, buy television satellites. There are nearly 200 free newspapers circulating in Iraq.

NONE of the universities joined the "phony" uprising that got the pseuds like Dan Warna in their paryoxysms of excitement.

Iraq has already had a series of democratic local govt elections, in which, interestingly, the hardline religious Shiite candidates have not done well - contrary to expectations.

The Kurds in northern Iraq have had a properly functioning democracy for many years now, thanks to the Brit/US maintianing the no fly zone against pseudo left pressure during the 90s.

Before long, the Iraqis will have their first general, democratic elections and, finally, at last ...

they will be able to CHOOSE for themselves.

I don't like the look of either side of politics right now....

Yes, well as long as the pseuds of this world, like Dan Warna, keep happily geeing on the fascists who are trying to restore the Baathists or impose a Wahabbi/Taleban style regime on Iraq , I don't blame you for being confused as to whether you should like either side.

FINALLY - to answer your question: "what are you if you opposed the war for these reasons?"

Well for a start you are NOT a pseudo Leftist.

A pseudo Leftist is ideologically driven with a blinkered mind.
A Pseudo Leftist is someone who continually drives a political argument from a philosophical base. Dan Warna, for instance, is a definite Pseud. He can't see anything beyond "it's all about Haliburton".

If you were a pseud, you wouldn't be asking questions of me. You would be telling me!

I call myself a Real Leftist because I too drive arguments from an ideological political/philosophical position.
However, unlike pseuds, I acknowledge this openly and don't have a blinkered position: I really like reading and hearing different viewpoints and debating them, and adjusting my global view accordingly.
I come off a rational base, not an emotional one like the pseuds.
Like Orwell. He is a Real Hero, that man.

You seem to be in the middle. I assume you try to make sense of all the arguments on both sides and come to your own judgement?

If so, Orwell is good reading. If you like him, you should keep in mind how despised he was in his lifetime by the pseuds and all because he exposed the iniquities of one of the great mass murderers of our time, Stalin.

 

[Lennyfan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hitchens on Moore

Originally posted by GuruJane
Like your post. Have made some comments on your points then answer your question at the end ...



I didn't believe the war was wrong. I believed it was right.
I believed the fascist regime of Saddam and the Baathists should have been removed after the Gulf War, if not earlier.

I CERTAINLY do NOT believe it was "against international law".

This is a pseudo Left myth, imo.

I agree that they should have been removed after the GULF war, mainly because they invaded a nearby country. If someone can explain why this didn't happen would be great reading.

But that didn't happen......

It was against international law because in the view of the UN, the resolution simply didn not allow the US to invade Iraq.... added to this the claims that there was dangerous weapons of mass distruction, links to OBL etc.

This is important because otherwise any country could invade anyone on the smallest of UN resolution that is passed.

[/QUOTE]
[/b]

Well they can't do everything at once, can they? Pre-emptive intervening by outright war as they did in Iraq is a NEW policy for the US that came out of the 9/11 attacks.

Personally I think (as have posted on the Dan Warna's Saudi Arabia thread) that the UN should be much more pro-active in getting rid of repressive, fascist regimes by refusing them membership in the UN.

What do you think about that?
[/b][/QUOTE]

I totally agree with the UN being more proactive in getting rid of repressive, fascist regimes...... but I can understand the politics of why some things just don't happen. 5 main countries can void a resolution (see the US and middle east), the UN isn't paid what they are due. These create tensions and limit what the UN can do, so I do agree that refusing them membership could help but wouldn't that still be small fry..... they could still trade?

Pre-emptive strikes are a very dodgy policy in my opinion. If most of the world agrees with what the US wants to do, there is no reason for it to be pre-emptive.

When I think about this type of policy, the idea of a country like pakistan decide that "hell india might want to attack us, lets nuke them first", but india hear about this and send a rocket over first......... thats called starting a war!!! No single country can do that in our international politics, nore should they be able to.

Add the idea of a missle shield, so america can attack you first but you can't attack back. Not just an arms race but the fear this could be created.... Going on 1984, there are three super powers (lets say US (plus UK and oz), europe and China (plus the rest of asia) ) and they can just attack each other... or create "star wars" type shields.... either they destroy each other or they have a continuous war....... yes it can happen with both sidesm, as long as the ones in power don't want to lose it, thats the scary thing about democracy, the ones at the top can lose it through the vote.

[/QUOTE]
No. The goalposts were changed as far as the US was concerned by the attack on American mainland on 9/11.

I also believed it was changed for all of us in that by their actions and expressed beliefs the Islamofascists declared war on liberal democracy. And that is us. All of us who live in liberal democracies.

[/b][/QUOTE]

My thought was more the fact that the reason for the "invasion" was because of weapons on mass distruction and conections to OBL before it happened, then afterwards when the weapons weren't found, it changed to liberating. I am never against regime change if it is done through international law and with good reasons (yep, no sleep so pick this to pieces)

[/QUOTE]
Do you really believe the Iraqis themselves could have overthrown this vile and vicious and FASCIST regime?

Never an option since the US and Brits failed to protect the Shiites and Kurds in their uprising after the Gulf War. To the eternal shame of US/Brits at that time, imo. But I can't recall the pseuds (who'd opposed the Gulf War) making a fuss about it at the time. Do you?

As a result, from their perceived weakness the US gave heart to OBL and his fascists and that emboldened them to plan the series of attacks in the 90s on the World Trade Centre and other US targets (and also attempting to assassinate Bush Senior!) which finally culminated in the 9/11 attack.

So that's why US/Brits had to fight another war to finally get rid of Saddam's FASCIST regime because post 9/11 they could not risk Saddam passing on wmd technology to OBL's Islamofascists.

Everything else is just debating points.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think I know enough to argue this but as I have mentioned before, it is still debatable that you can invade a country on these reasons....
[/QUOTE]
As we now see, the fascists of course are still fighting them, egged on by the pseuds. We see it on this board all the time from Dan Warna and others.

The war was horrible in the sense that you have a big powerful country like the US raining down cruise missiles on a country that is defenceless against that kind of attack.

But the civilian casualties, while horrible in themselves, turned out to be miniscule compared to what the pseuds predicted before the war.

And where are we now a year later?

The Iraqis finally are about to have sovereignity and an interim government.

They now have freedom of information - for the first time Iraqis are allowed to access the net, buy television satellites. There are nearly 200 free newspapers circulating in Iraq.

NONE of the universities joined the "phony" uprising that got the pseuds like Dan Warna in their paryoxysms of excitement.

Iraq has already had a series of democratic local govt elections, in which, interestingly, the hardline religious Shiite candidates have not done well - contrary to expectations.

The Kurds in northern Iraq have had a properly functioning democracy for many years now, thanks to the Brit/US maintianing the no fly zone against pseudo left pressure during the 90s.

Before long, the Iraqis will have their first general, democratic elections and, finally, at last ...

they will be able to CHOOSE for themselves.

[/QUOTE]

The reasons I protested in the rain before the war happened have been mentioned above plus I hate war. I am all for liberating and I celebrate anything like what you mention above. I hope that the americans allow them to have complete and free elections.

[/QUOTE]
Yes, well as long as the pseuds of this world, like Dan Warna, keep happily geeing on the fascists who are trying to restore the Baathists or impose a Wahabbi/Taleban style regime on Iraq , I don't blame you for being confused as to whether you should like either side.

FINALLY - to answer your question: "what are you if you opposed the war for these reasons?"

Well for a start you are NOT a pseudo Leftist.

A pseudo Leftist is ideologically driven with a blinkered mind.
A Pseudo Leftist is someone who continually drives a political argument from a philosophical base. Dan Warna, for instance, is a definite Pseud. He can't see anything beyond "it's all about Haliburton".

If you were a pseud, you wouldn't be asking questions of me. You would be telling me!

I call myself a Real Leftist because I too drive arguments from an ideological political/philosophical position.
However, unlike pseuds, I acknowledge this openly and don't have a blinkered position: I really like reading and hearing different viewpoints and debating them, and adjusting my global view accordingly.
I come off a rational base, not an emotional one like the pseuds.
Like Orwell. He is a Real Hero, that man.

You seem to be in the middle. I assume you try to make sense of all the arguments on both sides and come to your own judgement?

If so, Orwell is good reading. If you like him, you should keep in mind how despised he was in his lifetime by the pseuds and all because he exposed the iniquities of one of the great mass murderers of our time, Stalin. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thankyou for the comments. I try to be rational but can me emotional. I sometimes think that there really aint any left or right sometimes, just opinions for the sake of them and the opposition can't just agree, that would be boring......

Yeah I could see what he was aiming 1984 at but it scared me that it could be applied to an "extent" to our current capitalist life in the western world.....