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Holmes

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Holmes has done well to achieve what he has at this stage but to suggest we look at trading out Longer because we have Holmes or trading Holmes for a high pick is just pure fantasy.
He's a great fella, has fitted in with the group extremely well and I hope he keeps developing but there's a little bit of Walsh/Ledger amongst our supporters with him.
His ruck work is coming along nicely but he's averaging less kicks, marks and hit outs at VFL level than what Longer is at AFL level.
 
Moorabbin Ghost said:
Holmes has done well to achieve what he has at this stage but to suggest we look at trading out Longer because we have Holmes or trading Holmes for a high pick is just pure fantasy.
He's a great fella, has fitted in with the group extremely well and I hope he keeps developing but there's a little bit of Walsh/Ledger amongst our supporters with him.
His ruck work is coming along nicely but he's averaging less kicks, marks and hit outs at VFL level than what Longer is at AFL level.
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I think Longer would average the same marks and kicks at AFL level as VFL level. He is non-competitive in the air and around the ground. Hickey for some reason is not getting a go. For Longer to get a kick/mark it has to be a fluke, like when an umpire could take a make because the ball has gone somewhere unexpected. I have seen Holmes take marks at Sandy that neither Longer or Hickey could take. Holmes and Longer have similar skill levels when they have the ball. When did Longer have 60 hitouts?
 
Moorabbin Ghost said:
Holmes has done well to achieve what he has at this stage but to suggest we look at trading out Longer because we have Holmes or trading Holmes for a high pick is just pure fantasy.
He's a great fella, has fitted in with the group extremely well and I hope he keeps developing but there's a little bit of Walsh/Ledger amongst our supporters with him.
His ruck work is coming along nicely but he's averaging less kicks, marks and hit outs at VFL level than what Longer is at AFL level.
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Okay my specterous friend, I'll bow to your greater knowledge. :) This place thrives on pure fantasy though, of course. ;)
 
Moorabbin Ghost said:
Holmes has done well to achieve what he has at this stage but to suggest we look at trading out Longer because we have Holmes or trading Holmes for a high pick is just pure fantasy.
He's a great fella, has fitted in with the group extremely well and I hope he keeps developing but there's a little bit of Walsh/Ledger amongst our supporters with him.
His ruck work is coming along nicely but he's averaging less kicks, marks and hit outs at VFL level than what Longer is at AFL level.
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I guess my question, then, is how does the Club plan to use him next year? At 26yo, is he going to be happy to stay on the International Rookie List next year? Is he expecting to go on the senior list? How does the Club feel about that? If they're okay with it, how are they feeling about having four rucks on the main list?
 

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Persevering Saint said:
I guess my question, then, is how does the Club plan to use him next year? At 26yo, is he going to be happy to stay on the International Rookie List next year? Is he expecting to go on the senior list? How does the Club feel about that? If they're okay with it, how are they feeling about having four rucks on the main list?
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I'd like to think that Holmes has definitely shown enough to be kept for next season. Whether he gets upgraded (and what we do with Pierce) is a decision that is yet to be made. Only half way through the season so those two boys still have time to play some good footy.
Holmes may make it, he may not, but it's a bloody good effort to get to where he is in such a short time.
 
#gosaintas said:
I think Longer would average the same marks and kicks at AFL level as VFL level. He is non-competitive in the air and around the ground. Hickey for some reason is not getting a go. For Longer to get a kick/mark it has to be a fluke, like when an umpire could take a make because the ball has gone somewhere unexpected. I have seen Holmes take marks at Sandy that neither Longer or Hickey could take. Holmes and Longer have similar skill levels when they have the ball. When did Longer have 60 hitouts?
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When did Holmes become a member of AIS Academy, Vic Metro Captain, U/18 AA, No. 8 Draft Pick and be averaging 9 disposals and 32 HO at AFL level as a 22yo?
I understand the excitement around Holmes ruck work but it's foolish to even compare the two.
 
Moorabbin Ghost said:
When did Holmes become a member of AIS Academy, Vic Metro Captain, U/18 AA, No. 8 Draft Pick and be averaging 9 disposals and 32 HO at AFL level as a 22yo?
I understand the excitement around Holmes ruck work but it's foolish to even compare the two.
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I will give you all the other stuff but 9 disposals is a joke. I hope he turns into an AA ruckman and I like his trajectory but let's not get too excited by 9 disposals and a host of junior honours. Plenty of high draft picks turn into duds. I'm looking forward to seeing Holmes get a chance and if he isn't up to it the so be it.
 
#gosaintas said:
I will give you all the other stuff but 9 disposals is a joke. I hope he turns into an AA ruckman and I like his trajectory but let's not get too excited by 9 disposals and a host of junior honours. Plenty of high draft picks turn into duds. I'm looking forward to seeing Holmes get a chance and if he isn't up to it the so be it.
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I'm not trying to be a smarta**e but even more Rookies turn into duds and Holmes is averaging less disposals at a lower level. If 9 disposals at AFL level is a joke then what is 8 at VFL level?
 
Statistically, there's nothing between Longer and Holmes (albeit at different levels).

Medians:

HTML: 
     K    H    M    HO    FF  FA    T    G    B    DT
H    4    4    1    30    1    1    3    0    0    61
L    3    5    2    32    1    2    2    0    0    60
 
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Would like to see him tried in a couple of set positions ( for learning purposes ) even if it means dropping him to the development side. Maybe two weeks at FF, then back in the seniors for two weeks, then a couple of weeks at FB in dev squad. Might just be the X-Factor leading into the VFL finals, where if needed may be able to be thrown into these positions. Also gives us a better look to see if he is capable of doing more around the ground & not just a one trick pony in the ruck. Personally, would love to see him succeed, would be a great story.
 
I don't understand the Longer bashing in here. I reckon he has been great for us this season, got the kick up the pants he needed in the off season, the #1 mantle is his to lose. Has the aggression of a ruckman now, wins his share of taps, gets his body involved (6 tackles on the weekend).

OK so it would be handy to have him take a few more marks and disposal numbers could be higher (hand passes please. See him as a traditional "can't kick" kinda ruckman) but I don't think Hickey is even close to him at the moment.

Mumford doesn't average much more and a lot of people rate him as GWS most important player. A lot of that is to do with his presence on the ground, and not just the things you can look up in disposal stats. I reckon Longer could become the same sort of enforcer.
 

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The issue with Longer I believe still comes down to his fitness. He is visibly fatigued in the second half. And then when the ball is in his vicinity, it hits off his hands or he doesn't spread as well as his opponent, or as I've seen him do many times this year, he stands 40m behind play bent over at the waist.

In the 2nd quarter of most games, he looks like a pretty good AFL Ruckman.
He gets bullied a bit in the 1st when the opponent is keen, and run ragged in the 4th, and as a result has bad moments which people remember and pick out. He is the epitome of where our side is at - he can't do it for 4 quarters, but the overall signs are good.
 
Moorabbin Ghost said:
Holmes has done well to achieve what he has at this stage but to suggest we look at trading out Longer because we have Holmes or trading Holmes for a high pick is just pure fantasy.
He's a great fella, has fitted in with the group extremely well and I hope he keeps developing but there's a little bit of Walsh/Ledger amongst our supporters with him.
His ruck work is coming along nicely but he's averaging less kicks, marks and hit outs at VFL level than what Longer is at AFL level.
Click to expand...
For some reason, all logic and balanced discussion is thrown out on this forum when discussing ruckmen. They take time, the Billy bashing is ridiculous, big men take time, it's extraordinary how good he is this early. If anyone wants an example of big men taking time, have a look at the GWS vs North ruck contest. Rory Lobb is older and taller than Billy and is currently being creamed up by Todd Goldstein (who has beaten the record for hitouts in a game).
 
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Rahul said:
For some reason, all logic and balanced discussion is thrown out on this forum when discussing ruckmen. They take time, the Billy bashing is ridiculous, big men take time, it's extraordinary how good he is this early. If anyone wants an example of big men taking time, have a look at the GWS vs North ruck contest. Rory Lobb is older and taller than Billy and is currently being creamed up by Todd Goldstein (who has beaten the record for hitouts in a game).
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The Longer bashing makes no sense. He has been terrific this year.
After years of crying out that we had a ruckman who couldn't ruck but was good around the ground the same supporters are now complaining that we have a fine ruckman who isn't getting a lot of ball around ground (and he's only 22)! Billy will be a very fine ruckman in 4 years time when we are deep in Finals. The coaching staff are more than happy with his progression since he arrived.
These supporters must have no idea about footy or are only happy when they're bashing.
 
people* must know that longer is purposely not sprinting around the field getting touches because he needs the energy to ruck 90% of the game

**maybe not, but i reckon his number 1 focus is to ruck the game out
 
Seriously given the amount of love that "Nic Nat" gets for being a 12 possession player who barely takes a mark but jumps well and can palm the ball, Holmes would have to be a shoe-in to get upgraded at some stage this year.
 
pebblesofsand said:
Seriously given the amount of love that "Nic Nat" gets for being a 12 possession player who barely takes a mark but jumps well and can palm the ball, Holmes would have to be a shoe-in to get upgraded at some stage this year.
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Has there ever been two players worshiped more for games which are usually in the teens possession wise as Nic Nat and "Special" Cyril?
 

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pebblesofsand said:
Seriously given the amount of love that "Nic Nat" gets for being a 12 possession player who barely takes a mark but jumps well and can palm the ball, Holmes would have to be a shoe-in to get upgraded at some stage this year.
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Horribly overrated Nic Nat is. His best is amazing but is so damn rare its almost shocking. Would love to see Holmes leap above him and get that ball down without him even touching it.
 
ike2112 said:
The issue with Longer I believe still comes down to his fitness. He is visibly fatigued in the second half. And then when the ball is in his vicinity, it hits off his hands or he doesn't spread as well as his opponent, or as I've seen him do many times this year, he stands 40m behind play bent over at the waist.

In the 2nd quarter of most games, he looks like a pretty good AFL Ruckman.
He gets bullied a bit in the 1st when the opponent is keen, and run ragged in the 4th, and as a result has bad moments which people remember and pick out. He is the epitome of where our side is at - he can't do it for 4 quarters, but the overall signs are good.
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he's 22.. his fitness levels will definitely increase over the next few seasons and will most likely be in prime shape for our time in the finals. He hasn't had good pre-seasons in Brisbane and in his first year at St. Kilda, he arrived at pre-season training overweight with hardly any work done during the break.

He got a kick in the ass this past pre-season by the staff and the players, and we have seen huge improvements from Billy already. Give him a few more years, and I guarantee he will be one of the elite ruckmen in the AFL. I watched an episode of "On the Couch" and Jono Brown was saying how good Billy will be, saying that he is in the mould of a 'premiership ruckman.' And you can't really go against with what he says since he's played in a triple premiership and knows what type of player you have to be.

Future is bright for Billy. The Billy bashers on this forum are absurd.
 
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AuntieBarrels said:
You say this, yes... but would love Nic Nat and Cyril at St. Kilda...
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If I could only have one I would love Nic Nat purely on the marketing side of things.
The kids love him and hes the type of player that gets you an extra 5 thousand members whether your winning or not.
But I guess I could squeeze Cyril on the interchange bench somwhere;)
 
CALL ME SNAKE said:
If I could only have one I would love Nic Nat purely on the marketing side of things.
The kids love him and hes the type of player that gets you an extra 5 thousand members whether your winning or not.
But I guess I could squeeze Cyril on the interchange bench somwhere;)
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On saying that about Naitanui, couldn't the bloke who this thread is about Holmes be also marketed the same way? I know we have a couple of good ruckmen already, so that's why I wouldn't mind seeing him learning another position to add another string to his bow. If given the chance & becomes successful could be very marketable.
 

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