Houston ...We Have a Problem

[Moo]

Now I may be about to make the biggest ever rookie type, dumb error ever but I tried applying the rules for issuing bonus points as stickied in the BF laws...I was trying to see if we could save some of the current points for next season rather than wipe it clean (it would seem unfair if the Crocs can repeat or Qld go 3 in a row and not get some reward).

Meaning that teams get 1 point for being in a premiership, 2 for an international team and points for medals. Points off at 1 per time as specified in the rules.

This includes the 2005 & 2006 flags, the last 2 international squads (tests v NZ in Dec and World Cup) and medalist for 2006 (can't find one day & test POTY for 2005).

I am not advocating mid-season change BTW ....just trying to show the differences.

I haven't gone back any further than 2005 (though not sure if any points are kicking on from beyond that (you are not limited to 1 point per season reduction...but 1 point for not repeating/making a squad) - now doing this comparrison ...it is a mess. I did kill the bonus WCup bonuses as I don't think the admin should ever act outside the rules (but as we are not changing now ...it does not really matter anyway).

This is what I calculate it should be ....(unless of course there is some other way to get BP's that is a secret?). Any stuff up made is accidental but I think it is accurate.

Allies
Batting
Iceman +1
BarcaRulz +2
Craig Ryan +3 (+4 if medalist votes dont decrease)

Keeper
Kahuna +2

All Rounder

Bowler
Unwritten Law +1

Bagdad Bombers
Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Bomber Bears +2

Bowler
Nil

Freo Ballbreakers
Batting
Kenny + 1 (+2 if medalist votes don't decrease)
The Mase +2

Keeper
Power 21 +1

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

Geelong Gumbies
Batting
Ricketts +1
Pepi +1

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Cats Fan 16 +2

Inferno Devils
Batting
Pie4Life +2

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

KCC
Batting
Rough Edges +3

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Mr Q +2

Bowler
Nil

Queenslander

Batting
Smokin Joe +1
Quicksilva +3
Jimmy C8 +1
Catcozmo +1

Keeper
HuSSey +1

All Rounder
Essendonpride +2

Bowler
Skipper Kelly +4

Southern Sharks

Batting
Spell_Check +2
Blue, Red & Gold +2

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

SEM
Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Capitalist +2

Team 13
Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
NimChief +2

Victoria
Batting
Ant +3
Fred +1

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Stmookeyj +1

Bowler
Coin_Toss +1
Deestroy +1

West Coast Warriors
Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Larrikin +2

WIM
Batting


Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

Whitsunday Crocs

Batting
King Brown +3
Total Power +2
Daddy_4_eyes +1
Bomber_Aus +1
Cassius Clay +1

Keeper
Batram Class +1

All Rounder
Andrew_Mc +1
Footy Lover18 +1

Bowler
Frodo +1
The Dice Man +1


Not listed or I don't know their new names - J Gallagher +2, Dudeman +1 ,GMM +1, Von Douche +1, Ben Cats Fan +1


– Bonus Skill Points

4.1: Bonus point maximum: The maximum amount of bonus points one player can receive is 5 and there are no exceptions to this maximum


4.2: International bonus points: For players who played a game in the BigFooty International team (not squad) will receive 2 bonus skill points in both forms of the game


4.3: State Of Origin bonus points: There are no bonus points for playing in State Of Origin yet.


4.4: Premiership bonus points: For players who played in a Premiership winning team (not club) will receive 1 bonus skill point each. The player must have played the winning XI.


4.5: Kenny Ryan Medal (formally known as BigFooty Medal) bonus points: For players who win the highest honour in the BigFooty Fantasy Cricket League will receive 2 bonus skill points. The winner of the Test Player of the year and One Day player of the year will also receive 1 bonus skill point.


4.6: Loss of bonus points: The loss of bonus points may come from 3 reasons: Not making the next International squad, not winning the next premiership or as a punishment. For not being in a premiership or International side the next time around the player will lose 1 bonus skill point. As a punishment though it can vary however it will only be bonus points lost, not original skill points.

 

[Moo]

Compare that to what is currently out there ....

Allies
18 person squad
11 players with BP’s
Total of 37 +’s

Batting
Iceman +5
BarcaRulz +5
Craig Ryan +5
Rave +4
Thewlis Dish +1

Keeper
Kahuna +3

All Rounder
Freo Big Fella +3 (1 batting / 2 bowling)
Carter +1 (bowling)

Bowler
Unwritten Law +4
Dipper +3
Santos L Helper +3

Bagdad Bombers
18 person squad
1 player with BP
Total of 3 +’s

Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Bomber Bears +3

Bowler
Nil

Freo Ballbreakers
16 person squad
4 players with BP
Total of 10 +’s

Batting
Kenny +2
Funky Freo +2
The Mase +4

Keeper
Power 21 +2

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

Geelong Gumbies
16 person squad
4 players with BP
Total of 7 +’s

Batting
Ricketts +2
Catman +1
Pepi +1

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Cats Fan 16 +3

Inferno Devils
18 person squad
1 Player with BP
Total of 3 +’s

Batting
Pie4Life +3

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

KCC
18 person squad
3 Players with a BP
Total of 7 +’s

Batting
Rough Edges +3
Cat Flying High +1

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Mr Q +3 (bowling)

Bowler
Nil


Queenslander
13 person squad
8 Players with BP
Total of 12 +’s

Batting
Smokin Joe +1
Quicksilva +1
Jimmy C8 +1
Catcozmo +1

Keeper
HuSSey +1

All Rounder
Radz +1 (bowling)
Essendonpride +1 (bowling)

Bowler
Skipper Kelly +5

Southern Sharks
18 person squad
3 Players with BP
Total of 11 +’s

Batting
Spell_Check +5
Blue, Red & Gold +4
Kapow + 2

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil


SEM
16 person squad
1 Player with BP
Total of 4 +’s

Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Capitalist + 4

Team 13
15 person squad
1 player with BP
Total of 5 BP’s all up

Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
NimChief +5


Victoria
14 person squad
5 Players with BP
Total of 16 +’s

Batting
Ant + 5
Fred +5

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Stmookeyj +2 (bowling)

Bowler
Coin_Toss +2
Deestroy +2

West Coast Warriors
16 person squad
1 player with BP
Total of 4 +’s

Batting
Nil

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Larrikin +4


WIM
18 person squad
1 with BP
Total of 3 +’s

Batting
Mattyc2422 +3

Keeper
Nil

All Rounder
Nil

Bowler
Nil

Whitsunday Crocs
15 person squad
9 players with BP
Total 20 +’s

Batting
King Brown +5
Total Power +3
Daddy_4_eyes +2
Bomber_Aus +2
Cassius Clay +1

Keeper
Batram Class +1

All Rounder
Andrew_Mc +1 (bowling)

Bowler
Frodo +4
The Dice Man +1

 

[Moo]

Here is the change it makes ...

I ma just putting these up for discussion (again not saying change mid season) ...though having said that I think Qld should go up as there score appears wrong (Quicksilva and Essendonpride should have another +1 each) and footylover18 seems not to have got a BP at all for the Crocs and both of these are correctable (he played in the test win).

Though not my call just putting it out there.

BOWLING (How Many Below Normal Bowling Average)
Allies are 13 should be 1
Qld are 7 should be 6
Crocs are 6 should be 4
Victoria are 6 should be 3
T13 are 5 should be 2
SEM are 4 should be 2
WCW are 4 should be 2
Bombers are 3 should be 2
Geelong are 3 should be 2
KCC are 3 should be 2
Devils are 0 should be 0
Freo are 0 should be 0
Sharks are 0 should be 0
WIM are 0 should be 0


BATTING (How Many Above Normal Batting Average)
Allies are 24 should be 8
Crocs are 14 should be 9
Sharks are 11 should be 4
Freo are 10 should be 4
Victoria are 10 should be 4
Qld are 5 should be 7
KCC are 4 should be 3
Geelong are 4 should be 2
Devils are 3 should be 2
WIM are 3 should be 0
Bombers are 0 should be 0
SEM are 0 should be 0
T13 are 0 should be 0
WCW are 0 should be 0

 

[Moo]

COMBINED (For Every + 1 Above Batting / Every – 1 Below Bowling)
What it is/What it should be by my clacs

1. Allies 37/9
2. Crocs 20/15
3. Victoria 16/7
4. Qld 12/13
5. Sharks 11/4
6. Freo 10/4
7. Geelong 7/4
8. KCC 7/5
9. T13 5/2
10. SEM 4/2
11. WCW 4/2
12. Bomber 3/2
13. Devils 3/2
14. WIM 3/0 (? did a player change names)

Players With BP’s
1. Allies 11/5
2. Qld 8/7
3. Crocs 9/10
4. Victoria 5/5
5. Freo 4/3
6. Geelong 4
7. KCC 3/2
8. Sharks 3/2
9. Bombers 1/1
10. Devils 1/1
11. SEM 1/1
12. T13 1/1
13. WCW 1/1
14. WIM 1/0

 

[Moo]

OK ...so I hope this is taken in the right spirit (Dipper I is looking at you).

I live in the ME and it is 47 degrees ...hence I am bored.

Maybe if we can sort through this a little and discuss with the some of the old timers on the board ...we might be able to sort this mess out and save some of the BP's?

Alternatively we can take the cheap option and can them ...but if I was a Qld or Croc ..or a recent WCup attendee - I may not agree as they earned their points fair & square. If the Crocs and Qld dont win this year (and therefore lose their points ...it may be easier to do).

Anyway ....there is my workings I am happy to discuss them and happy to help run this bit of it next year if we can get it to some sort of agreed base, assuming the new admin wants help and of course the comp thinks it would be of some benefit/trusts me.

 

[Frodo]

I think you are discounting previous seasons. I thought bonus points were only removed at a rate of one per season, some will have accumulated.

Also, this years international points wouldn't apply until next season (if at all) and last seasons international points will be applied this season.

 

[ShearMagic9]

Also, it was well known that for exceptional performances at the WC more bonus points were offered.

Take Nim for example, he got maxed out at the WC because he got 2 for playing, 2 for two 5/fas and I think everyone got an extra point because the BigFooty team won??

 

[Frodo]

Also, it was well known that for exceptional performances at the WC more bonus points were offered.

Take Nim for example, he got maxed out at the WC because he got 2 for playing, 2 for two 5/fas and I think everyone got an extra point because the BigFooty team won??

Shouldn't be in this years stats though. International points gained in 2007 are applied in 2008, at the same time those who haven't earned any points duting 2007 but already have BP's have a 1 point reduction.
If WC BP's have been added mid season it sucks. And what's more the WC BP's should only be for one dayers.

 

[larrikin]

Also, it was well known that for exceptional performances at the WC more bonus points were offered.

Take Nim for example, he got maxed out at the WC because he got 2 for playing, 2 for two 5/fas and I think everyone got an extra point because the BigFooty team won??

Yeah, a few of us got extra bonus points for performances at the WC. Are they being deleted?

 

[ShearMagic9]

Yeah, a few of us got extra bonus points for performances at the WC. Are they being deleted?

Not until the end of the season.

 

[Moo]

I think you are discounting previous seasons. I thought bonus points were only removed at a rate of one per season, some will have accumulated.

Also, this years international points wouldn't apply until next season (if at all) and last seasons international points will be applied this season.

Not according to the rules ...they are removed at the rate of 1 point for every international squad not made ...hence when the WC points were allocated mid season - the BP's from the Dec tests should ahve gone down by 1 and any previous international points should be removed all together.

The trouble I have with the WC extra points is they were not agreed to and are not allowed under the rules.

For example Barca got 5 points ....techincally (as per the rules he should only lose 1 every time he fails to make a squad ...meaning if we go to one rep squad a year - he has the points for another 5).

I think the WC stats will either need to be reduced next year or expired at an accelerated rate to equalise the fact they were allocated faster.

Shouldn't be in this years stats though. International points gained in 2007 are applied in 2008, at the same time those who haven't earned any points duting 2007 but already have BP's have a 1 point reduction.
If WC BP's have been added mid season it sucks. And what's more the WC BP's should only be for one dayers.

It does suck but the rules do not say that come at seasons end.

Allocating so many and mid season - both poor decisions by us IMHO.

 

[Moo]

Also, it was well known that for exceptional performances at the WC more bonus points were offered.

Take Nim for example, he got maxed out at the WC because he got 2 for playing, 2 for two 5/fas and I think everyone got an extra point because the BigFooty team won??

but this was just Mr Ed's decision ...there is no allowance in the rules for it.

From now on we need to stick to the allocations.

Yeah, a few of us got extra bonus points for performances at the WC. Are they being deleted?

No mate no points being reduced - just discussing with an eye on rule changes we need for next year.

They may need to be reduced at a faster rate as more were given than normal.

There are just a lot of points and some of the rules are going to need to be re-worked ....I just did all the above as an example of how much work we have to do.

 

[ShearMagic9]

I propose that we all start equal next year, with the exception of the team that wins the competition in either form of the game this season.

Thoughts?

 

[Ljp86]

I propose that we all start equal next year, with the exception of the team that wins the competition in either form of the game this season.

Thoughts?

Agree.

**** this bonus points crap off. It is too confusing and there are too many bonus points between too fewer sides.

The teams that win each competition should be given one bonus point each per player and that's it. The rest should be erased so the comp can't start on some what of an even keel.

To have 56 points or whatever it was amongst the comp is ridiculous and stupid. They shouldn't be handed out like M and M's.

 

[larrikin]

I propose that we all start equal next year, with the exception of the team that wins the competition in either form of the game this season.

Thoughts?

That goes against the rules. Get rid of the ones that were additional, fair enough

 

[Dipper]

Not according to the rules ...they are removed at the rate of 1 point for every international squad not made ...hence when the WC points were allocated mid season - the BP's from the Dec tests should ahve gone down by 1 and any previous international points should be removed all together.

.

Well the WC was a competition done completely differently so I'm not sure that it would count as one where people lose their points, if people had known that nobody would have agreed to it as it wasn't chosen on form but 1 player from each club.


I'm weary & bored of the whole issue, it obvioulsy matters a lot more to you than it does me but like Frodo pointed out you've just arbitarily ignored the 2005 squads & BPs earnt there.


As far as I can remember me for example I made both Tests squads in 2005 & got 4 points.

So I went into 2006 with 4 points.

Didn't make the Test squad at the end of 2006 so lost a point & now have 3.

I won't make the Test squad at the end of this season so I'll have 2 for next season(unless we win the flag).

As far as I can see by ignoring the 2005 squads you've just chosen to take away the BPs that were earnt at the beginning, for what reason I'm not sure.


But go back, the first BPS ever given were for 3 Tests mid season v India.

Then at the end of 2005 we got them for a Test series with Australia.

Now because those 2 squads were chosen in the same season obviously a lot of players made both & hence got the full 4 points.So clearly they would still have some now, in fact it would be impossible to have lost them all.

There has only been one Test series since.

Also (& I assume that Eddie changed it) you used to get the points for Tests only or one dayers only, so unless he made them all the same, there would be a load of people with different averages for one dayers & Tests.And you wouldn't lose a Test point for not making a one day squad.

And whatever happens in the future with BPs, it's probably better to keep them separate, points earned in Tests only count in your Test stats.


Anyway you've gone to a lot of trouble but I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve when you just ignore all the first ever BPs given out in 2005, I'm not really sure why they shouldn't count.

I mean you've got a guy like Iceman who made both squads then & got 4 points.Also he's made other teams since.He's maxed out on 5 & I can't see why that wouldn't be the case.In fact he'd probably have 6 points except that it maxes out at 5.

I mean if you're gonna do this then you should at least do it properly but by completely ignoring 2005 you're misleading everyone, which may be your intention I don't know, but it seems funny that a lot of Allies players made their BPs in 2005 & you've decided not to the count them.I mean if you want to see me with no BPs then ignoring 2005 works pretty well because that's when I made them & as I've only missed 1 Test series since it seems pretty harsh that I find I should have none using your formula.

 

[Moo]

Thanks for the reply ...what I am trying to achieve is to get some basic understanding of the points system.

Also I am not misleading mate I said straight up that it only counted the last 2 international squads.....it gets a bit confusing/boring and I thought I would post this and get some reactions (ie had I made a major stuff up I would not bother, apologise and move on).

Where you are misreading the rules is it clearly states that you lose a point every time the next BF international squad is announced and you dont make it..a point lost......not a season/not a type of rep team.

Now maybe the rules are wrong? So then we change them, maybe the practice is wrong - so we correct it? Last resort we kill it and start again (again not my favoured option).

Example - The recent WC was the last rep squad, the Dec 2006 test series led by Deestroy the next ....unless you are doing a lot of representing the points from here are minimal (to be fair I did say I have only gone back the last 2 international sides). You are taking a point off per different rep side - as I said in my OP - I did it as per the stickied rules.

The WCup was a BF international team - that is the only place it fits in the rules and it is no different to the 2006 Interworld cup forum (except the proper points were issued by Kapow not extra).

I mean if you had BP's in 2005, using your example you should have lost a bonus point from the last WCup international squad (you were not in) and a BP from the test series in Dec (which you were not part of), another in the July 2006 BF Interforum Wolrd Cup (you were not part of). You have 3 BP's - which strictly under the rule is not possible at the moment even if you were maxed in 2005...you would be on 2.

I am sure there may be some extra points in there but only for KB, BRG, Iceman, Hilly are the 4 (but I want to clarify before moving on) - but we are talking a point here not multiples.

But so no mistake can be made using one of ours as an example CFH (my team) is carrying her BP from 3 squads ago ....she should be on 0...this is what I never understood.

As I have stated I am sure the rules need to be tightened as a lot of how we operate seems to be implied ...all I want to do is to get the rules clear. There is no rule on how and if points are retired from the Kenny Medallist?

Dipper honestly if I was running an agenda it would hardly be to leave it as it is this season would it? If I was truly out to get the Allies - I would be pushing to either change the points now or reset them next season (though it is a possibility if we can't work it out)

What I want to happen (apart for Qld and Crocs to get an extra BP they deserve - I think that is fair) ...is to truly understand the system to help re-write the rules (not to what I want but to be fair and agreed upon). If people don't trust me or think I am just some SOB - fine but someone should do it ...it is part of the comp to have clear rules to limit the amount of **** fights.

Our only hope of keeping the old BP's is to understand them as I see it and agree on the retiring of them, at the moment it is clear either ......the rules are wrong, the practice is wrong or perhaps a bit of both.

 

[Frodo]

I think the rules are incorrectly written but I think they have been applied correcly (as intended rather than written) up until 2007.

This year has been fcd up by a new competition being forced on us, many disagreed on it. It was unlike any other international series before. There were no tests, only one dayers. Selection was neither on performance or posting. It was on player from each club (which also affected the proper games). To hear that test stats were altered mid season because of this competition makes a joke of the whole board.

I think it was a farce and should not be considered a true international selection. All BP's added from the WC should be removed, now, and the WC remembered as BFFLC's greatest stuff up.

 

[Dipper]

I haven't read all your reply like I said it's getting weary, one thing that you're trying to do is back date the rules that are there now.

I advise getting Kapow on here, he was running things & like me he has a reasonable memory of things.

He'll tell you how things were done then & how & maybe when presumably Eddie altered or re-interpreted the rules.

The inter forum comp dished out one day points, if you were going to lose them, you'd lose them from your one day stats, that's how it worked.That's why I've got exactly the number that I should have, I earnt 4 & I've only missed one Test squad since, it's been worked out fine & I knew exactly how many points everyone in my team should have & it was funnily enough exactly right when the stats were posted.

And however it is written about losing a point for missing a rep side, it was clearly meant at the time that you miss a Test squad you lose Test BPs & miss a one day squad you lose one day BPs & there was clearly no way people would have accepted losing Test BPs for not going to the one day WC.That is just common sense.

 

[Moo]

I haven't read all your reply like I said it's getting weary, one thing that you're trying to do is back date the rules that are there now.

Dipper I said ...'I am not suggesting making changes to the current season' ...how is that back dating rules?

I just did the run through to show that action and theory don't meet....tis all.

The basis of your debate with me when I suggest the rules need to be re-written to reflect practice is ....

We've already got that, it is clearly defined & they do reset on a timed basis.

Hopefully you understand now that they are not clearly defined. For example the Kenny Medalist ...what happens there - it is not even mentioned?

I think Kapow understands where I am coming from? (maybe?) ...it is just about getting the rules we all want and agree to listed clearly for next season. Kapow is a guy I know who knows his stuff but I don't see the harm in me doing some leg work and asking some questions.

At the end of the season we need to agree a lot of things - this is just one.

Don't be so threatened by it all or take it all as a personal attack against you.

Enough blokes know me here and in other places to tell you that I'm a pretty fair bloke, I'm just trying to help sort it out.

 

[Stenglein's a Champ!]

14. WIM 3/0 (? did a player change names)

Mattyc was traded to us for BarcaRulz, and Matty had already accumulated three BP's.

 

[boncer34]

Go back to when BP's were first introduced and apply the rules. Then come back. Dont just pick a random spot that'll suit your argument.

Also Moo **** off trying to steal Bombers extra BP.

 

[Dipper]

Don't be so threatened by it all or take it all as a personal attack against you.

I wouldn't have unless your opening gambit in the whole debate was along the lines of 'Dipper talks all this crud about how good he is but it's all down the bonus points that they've got'.

That set the tone for me.

I'm sure we'd get on like a house on fire on civvy street, unlike on here I'm about as easy going & likeable as you'll find but you know the internet is not a great medium for a lot of communication.

Also you make assumptions about my motives (that are wrong) & that sh*ts me.

And you seem to spend a lot of time pulling out old posts from me & I like that cos it means you're wasting some of your time & so I'll keep on this way so you feel compelled to do that.

As for LSS he is an idiot.

I can't even waste breath on the likes of him & that arseclown at DE.

At least I show you the respect of wasting my time in making replies.

Anyway I'm off to meet Joy now she's from the San Fernando Valley & she uses the word 'like' a lot, as well as 'Rad' & 'Dude', I like it.& she seems to like 'Mate' & 'Bird' & 'w***er' coming from my lips so all is sweet.

I'll teach her about cricket soon & she can hopefully teach me about being a slacker.

 

[Leg_Spinning_Sensation]

As for LSS he is an idiot.

I can't even waste breath on the likes of him & that arseclown at DE.

At least I show you the respect of wasting my time in making replies.

Anyway I'm off to meet Joy now she's from the San Fernando Valley & she uses the word 'like' a lot, as well as 'Rad' & 'Dude', I like it.& she seems to like 'Mate' & 'Bird' & 'w***er' coming from my lips so all is sweet.

I'll teach her about cricket soon & she can hopefully teach me about being a slacker.

ahahahha, well you seem to have taken notice of me. Have you got anything bar 'idiot'? What are you, 12? The big bully of the playground. Geez, you are pretty amazing aren't you? Are you that stupid to think that I can't pick up on your plan? You praise the guys who agree with you, you try to destroy anyone who dares disagree with you. hmmmm... well done mate, you've had a reign on the site for years, good work. But you know, that as much as you can argue 'oh he's wasting his time' or 'look guys he's been away for ages and is trying to return to run the place'.

Face facts mate, changes need to be made or this place is ****ed. I don't want to change this place to TF, this place is different, but Dipper come on mate, you cannot continue to completely ignore my arguments. Acknowledge that it is not completely fair to have such gaps between the best and the worst.

And please.... try to think of an insult worse than idiot.

 

[Heisenberg_]

Face facts mate, changes need to be made or this place is ****ed. I don't want to change this place to TF, this place is different, but Dipper come on mate, you cannot continue to completely ignore my arguments. Acknowledge that it is not completely fair to have such gaps between the best and the worst.

Wake up mate.
BP are responsible for 0% of the problems.
The problem lies in teams like yours that just pretty much stopped, and unorganized admin